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  1. #61  
    Originally posted by Hoser_back_home


    i don't think so, we don't have the resources to deal with 5000 'detainees'!
    Sure you do -- how about the facilities left over from the 1976 Olympics?

  2. #62  
    Originally posted by Toby
    I agree. If history is any indicator, Canada would not detain them (not that the alternative is necessarily preferable ).
    Dunno about Canada, but if we open up the scope a bit to include England, there's a very clear precedent.

    There's a very curious book called "The Double Cross System" (I don't have the citation off the top of my head) written by one of the Englishmen partly responsible for the most successful counterintelligence sting in history: for most of World War II, every German agent working in Great Britain had been compromised by British intelligence. Incredible as it may sound, every bit of intelligence Germany received from agents in Britain during the latter half of WWII was deliberately planted by the British.

    The basic idea was to catch a spy, intercept messages to him that led to other spies, and so on. Since it was absolutely essential that Germany be kept in the dark, the arrests and prosecutions carried out generally amounted to tossing someone in prison, confronting them with a death warrent, and strongly recommending they co-operate.

    There's two basic differences between Double Cross and what appears to be going on in the United States at this time.

    First, and I cannot unfortunately source this (private conversation with a friend with a medium-high degree in Military History), there already existed a clear precedent in British law for locking people up indefinately without trial. "Held at the pleasure of Her Majesty" was the justification used for putting people away after unsuccessful assassination attempts against Queen Victoria: while, obviously, laws existed against attempted murder, it wasn't possible to put people in prison for life for that particular crime.

    Second, and more disturbing, WWII had a clear end point. The present near-war has no likely unambiguous end.

    Also, of course, Canada was used extensively to house POWs during the Second World War. I particularly recommend the exhibit in the War Museum in Ottawa for an amazing collection of things devised by German POWs -- the crossbow made from bed slats, springs, and curtain rods able to penetrate an inch of pine is a personal favorite.
  3. #63  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    I've heard that Alligator tastes like chicken, so probably no on the red meat.
    Opinions vary, no doubt, but to me it tasted like fish. In fact, it tasted so much like fish that only the bones convinced me I was indeed eating a crocodile tail -- the bones were remarkably solid and heavy, like beef bones, not thin and light like a fish's.
  4. #64  
    Originally posted by John Nowak


    Opinions vary, no doubt, but to me it tasted like fish. In fact, it tasted so much like fish that only the bones convinced me I was indeed eating a crocodile tail -- the bones were remarkably solid and heavy, like beef bones, not thin and light like a fish's.
    It tasts like fish for me too... and since I don't like seafood I put croc/aligator on the 'foods not to eat' list...
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  5. #65  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT
    It tasts like fish for me too... and since I don't like seafood I put croc/aligator on the 'foods not to eat' list...
    Too bad -- seafood's supposed to be good for you, at least this week. I'd love to know if reptiles had the same reputation.
  6. #66  
    Originally posted by John Nowak
    Dunno about Canada, but if we open up the scope a bit to include England, there's a very clear precedent. [...]
    Canada [technically under England's rule (although that never stops them from making claims about the war of 1812 ), though] has its own little precedents for handling several thousand people it doesn't want around.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. #67  
    Originally posted by John Nowak


    Too bad -- seafood's supposed to be good for you, at least this week. I'd love to know if reptiles had the same reputation.
    I know, just cant stand the taste.. and I tried plenty of times

    I guess reptiles are better than red meat...
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  8. #68  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Canada [technically under England's rule (although that never stops them from making claims about the war of 1812 ), though] has its own little precedents for handling several thousand people it doesn't want around.
    Absolutely fascinating, and something I hadn't heard about before. It's incredible how shallow in history some of the graves out there are, isn't it?

    Of course, the Canadians can point out that it was unauthorized.
  9.    #69  
    Originally posted by Pathdoc
    Ertonbel is correct about one thing he stated in an earlier post, NY can involuntarily hold someone without a court proceeding for longer than 72 hours (they can hold someone for 60 days). They are required to have a court hearing within 5 days of a request by the individual being held. Ertonbel, if you requested it and they didn't do it, then you have grounds to go after them.

    Interestingly, NY also requires statements from two physicians to get an involuntary commitment.

    Here is a link to the appropriate statute.
    Thanks for the ref., "brief" as it is.
    It's nice to see a serious post in the avalance of levity that seems to have developed after the proof is in. (Btw, TK, there were 6 photos [explained on p.2 of this thread, I believe, for the person who asked] ... what happened to the others? They will no doubt lend even greater weight. I could post the video [or just its audio, which is frightening enough to hear], but it's 10Mb ... and that's only the "core footage" of the incident. All of it would probably be over 1Gb [the orig. is camcorder tape, of course]. REGARDING REAL PROOF, HOWEVER, this is largely where it stops ... once I was kidnapped and "desigated" a "patient" [so they could w/"good conscience," if not legally ... DRUG ME, as they did all the other unfortunate recent immigrants who didn't know they had a right to refuse "their medication"], there is no more REAL PROOF to be had ... just the written-down lies, fabricated documents, fake "case histories," etc. ... all saying WHATEVER THE HOSP. & STAFF NEED TO SAY TO COVER THEIR ASSESS LEGALLY. NOT ACTING LIKE GOOD, DECENT PEOPLE, BUT PRETENDING TO, AND WRITING IT DOWN THAT WAY. Anything any of my friends or relatives "witnessed" [only 2 at a time are "allowed," I suppose due to their fear of breakouts ... or is it substantiated testimony?].)

    It's a real can of worms: I (and ALL the others) was denied my right to counsel OR ANY DUE PROCESS FOR DAYS. (This, my atty. said, was illegal ... AND IT'S ON ME TO FIGHT THE GARGANTUAN SYSTEM FOR THIS WHICH BY LAW THEY ARE COMMANDED TO DO? HOW IS THAT RIGHT?)
    Circa 5 days after I was already a kidnap victim (and chidishly AFRAID OF THESE PSYCHOTICS, who "THOUGHT" I "SHOULDN'T BE," as that would only PROVE the imaginary PARANOIA they "THOUGHT" I "MIGHT" have had BEFORE they KIDNAPPED me ... paging ... Dr. Lewis G. Carroll ... paging ... Dr. Lewis G. Carroll ... paging ... Dr. Lewis G. Carroll ...) I finally got to meet the 1 atty. NYS "graciously" provided me & 24 other INNOCENT, UNCONVICTED, NON-VIOLENT PERSONS. (I would have been the FIRST to COMPLAIN UNTIL I MADE ALL STAFF PERSONNEL VOMIT if I were continuously exposed to seriously violent persons. NONE OF US WAS. NONE OF US BELONGED THERE. THIS IS A LAB-RAT COLONY, AND THESE 25 HUMAN BEINGS WERE REGARDED AS EXPERIMENTAL DRUG-ANIMALS. NOT ONE OF THEM NEEDED TO HAVE THEIR LIBERTY TAKEN FROM THEM FOR 50 SECONDS, FORGET ABOUT 50 DAYS.)
    I HAD TO SEEK OUT THIS ATTY. THE STAFF NEVER HINTED AT HIS EXISTENCE. I HAD TO RELY ON THE "RUMOR" FROM THE OTHER "PATIENT-PRISONERS."
    HE'S A DESPICABLE, UNCTUOUS WEASEL OF A MAN, WHO COULD EASILY PASS FOR MENTALLY ILL HIMSELF. DISHEVELED, MORBIDLY OBESE, OILY WITH SLICK HAIR, HE IS NO ONE'S "ROLE MODEL" IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. HIS UNDERSTANDING OF SOCIAL NUANCE IS NIL. HE OFTEN INADVERTENTLY MAKES HIS "CLIENTS" LOOK BAD "IN FRONT OF THE DOCTORS" BY BANGING HIS HAND ON A DESK AND SAYING: "LISTEN! LISTEN TO ME!"
    BEHAVIOR LIKE THIS IS WHAT MANY OF US WERE SUPPOSEDLY LOCKED UP FOR, AS ORDINARY AS IT IS ON "THE OUTSIDE."
    STILL, HE CAN DO IT, B/C HE'S "PRIVILEGED." (YET ANOTHER PSYCHOTIC "TENET" UNDER THE LAW ... TO PROTECT SUCH WEASELS. IF I HAD 1/100TH THE THINGS HE SAID TO ME ON VIDEOTAPE, FORGET ABOUT JUST LOSING HIS LAW LICENSE, HE'D BE CHASED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. IGNORANTLY, HE PERSISTENTLY ATTEMPTS TO "PIGEON-HOLE" YOU, ACCORDING TO YOUR "BACKGROUND," JOB, FAMILY, HISTORY, ETC. ... EVERYTHING BUT RACE OR SEX, BUT ONLY BECAUSE THEY'RE SUCH BLATANTLY ILLEGAL FORMS OF DEROGATION. HE CLEARLY THINKS THE OTHERS ARE FINE. I HAD TO SET HIM STRAIGHT ON THE FACT THAT ALL OF THE "PATIENTS" WERE HUMAN BEINGS, THE GREAT MAJORITY OF WHOM DID NOT BELONG THERE.
    I COULD SEE I WAS MAKING HIM SICK WITH MY PIETY (HE IMAGINES HIMSELF A *VERY* RELIGIOUS MAN, BUT THERE IS NO GOD IN THIS UNIVERSE WHO WOULD HAVE SUCH A DESPICABLE DEGENERATE), AND THAT HE WAS WAITING FOR ME TO JUST UNDERSTAND THE MAJOR COMMANDMENT HE WAS WORSHIPING: "THIS IS MY JOB, NOTHING MORE."
    HE ACTUALLY SAID THAT TO ME ONCE.

    THIS SICKO CUT A DEVIL'S BARGAIN WITH ME:
    WE COULD "GO TO TRIAL" (IT'S NOT A REAL TRIAL IN A REAL COURT ... BUT A *GENUINE* KANGAROO COURT IN A *GENUINE* MENTAL INSTITUTION -- CREEDMOOR -- THAT IS MASSIVELY "FAMOUS" IN NYC AS A HOUSE OF LUNATICS ... SMEARING AND STIGMATIZING YOU BEYOND BELIEF FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, SHOULD ANYONE EVER FIND OUT THAT YOU WERE *EVER* THERE, FOR *ANY* REASON, AND *EVEN FOR A SECOND*) IN "AS LITTLE AS TWO WEEKS" ...
    ... MEANWHILE, I'M THINKING: "WHAT KIND OF INSANE, PSYCHOTIC DEGENERATE HAS 'THIS GREAT CITY, STATE & COUNTRY' PROVIDED ME, AS MY *ONLY* SALVATION (IT'S AXIOMATIC THAT MONOPOLIES ARE EVIL ... AND LIKELY NONE MORE THAN WHEN YOUR DESTINY IS THRUST INTO THE HANDS OF A STRANGER YOU'D "BETTER LIKE" ... OR ELSE), WHO THINKS THAT TWO WEEKS OF ILLEGAL IMPRISONMENT CAN BE CHARACTERIZED AS *ONLY*?
    AND EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THE OTHER INSANE, PSYCHOTIC DEGENERATES IN THE SYSTEM ALSO "FAILED TO SEE WHY I WAS SO FRUSTRATED WITH THAT." (WHISPER, WHISPER ... "IT'S JUST ANOTHER MANIFESTATION OF HIS MENTAL ILLNESS, DON'T YOU THINK?")

    OR ... WE COULD GO FOR THE BIG BOX ON THE DISPLAY FLOOR.
    WHAT WAS IN THE DISPLAY BOX?
    AN "INDEPENDENT EVALUATOR."
    THIS GUY, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN THE MANY DECADES IN MY LIFE, WOULD SEE THAT I WAS NOT MENTALLY ILL, STATE AS MUCH ... AND NOT ONLY WOULD I BE FREE ... THEY COULD NEVER "COME AFTER ME ABOUT IT" AGAIN.
    WOW, THAT SOUNDED APPETIZING.
    WHAT WAS "THE CATCH," I WONDERED, BEING A SAVVY NY'ER, AND KNOWING THERE LIKELY HAD TO BE ONE.
    THE "INDEPENDENT EVALUATOR" WOULDN'T BE "AVAILABLE" (HE'S AN IMPORTANT, BUSY MAN, WITH A LIFE ... AND YOU, YOU LITTLE PIECE OF *GARBAGE* ARE NOT ... AS DECIDED WITH NO HEARING, TRIAL OR EVIDENCE, BY THE CITY, STATE & COUNTRY) ... FOR *WEEKS AND WEEKS.*

    THE WEASEL LIED TO ME ON A NUMBER OF COUNTS:
    (I know I'm running long, and am trying to be concise, yet not leave out anything important.)
    The I.E. ... really ISN'T. HE DOES THIS FOR A LIVING. HE'S KNOWN & WORKED W/MY ATTY. FOR A DECADE AND A HALF. IT'S ALL JUST A SET-UP, REALLY.
    BUT, YOU KNOW ME...
    VIDEO.
    I WAS TOLD I COULD REQUEST THAT THE "EVALUATION" (WHICH WAS NOTHING MORE THAN ABOUT 10 MIN. OF "20 QUESTIONS" LIKE: "WHERE WERE YOU BORN?" "HOW MUCH MONEY DO YOU HAVE IN THE BANK?" ETC. A SHAM EVALUATION, IN OTHER WORDS) BE *VIDEOTAPED.*
    BUT MY EVIL WEASEL ATTY., THE ONLY ONE PROVIDED TO ME AND WHOSE *** I HAD BETTER KISS, SAID HE WOULD REMOVE HIMSELF FROM MY CASE (A THREAT HE MADE CONSTANTLY, BTW ... LIKE WHEN I DEMANDED TO SUBPOENA EVERYONE I EVER KNEW IN MY LIFE, IN COLLEGE, AT WORK, ETC. TO COME TO MY DEFENSE [HE SAID SUBPOENAS FORCING PEOPLE TO COME IN TICK THOSE PEOPLE OFF ... AND THEY'LL THEN TESTIFY *AGAINST* YOU FOR SPITE, NOT HELP YOU]; TO HAVE A JURY TRIAL [HE SAID "JURIES HATE MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE" -- EVEN IF I WASN'T ONE, THEY'D BURY ME]) IF I INSISTED ON VIDEOTAPING THE SESSION.
    HE WAS PROTECTING HIS FRIEND.
    THIS GENIUS "I.E." *COULD HARDLY UNDERSTAND ENGLISH* AND OFTEN MISSED THE POINT OF MY ANSWERS. (DO I STRIKE YOU AS SOMEONE WHO HAS DIFFICULTY W/THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE?) I COULD BARELY MAKE OUT WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO SAY MUCH OF THE TIME. IT WAS THE BLIND LEADING THE BLIND.
    IF I GOT HIM ON VIDEOTAPE, HE'D HAVE GONE FROM ONE OF OUR EVIL COUNTRY'S (IT MUST BE, TO SUPPORT THIS, EVEN IN IGNORANCE ... ALLOWING OUR SYSTEM TO BE SO FOULED UP TO GET INTO THIS CONDITION) "MOST EMININTLY QUALIFIED PSYCHIATRISTS" (MY ATTY. KEPT SAYING THIS, AS IF I WOULD BE STUPID ENOUGH TO BELIEVE IT IF HE KEPT REPATING IT ENOUGH) TO BEING KICKED OUT OF THE FIELD AND ON THE UNEMPLOYMENT LINE, PERHAPS FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.

    So, as Dirty Harry said: "A man's got to ask himself a question: Do I feel lucky?" Do I follow the weasel's advice? IRONICALLY, OF COURSE, IF ONE WERE MENTALLY ILL, HOW IS ONE TO BE EXPECTED TO DISCERN WHETHER OR NOT THE WEASEL IS GIVING HIM GOOD ADVICE OR NOT? (One more note for the case of 24/7 video protecting our citizens under all circumstances, esp. those of peril.)

    Many, many others, not in my precise circumstances (save they were innocent, and not dangerous either ... a 5 year-old child would have the POWER TO DISCERN THIS in a matter of HOURS, not 60 GODDAMN DAYS) were also held for unconscionable amounts of time. A HARMLESS JEHOVA'S WITNESS WHO WAS A SENISBLE LOGICAL GUY I GOT TO KNOW OVER WEEKS AND WEEKS AND MANY BIBLE-STUDY CLASSES WAS HELD THERE FOR 60 DAYS (AND *CONTINUES* TO BE AN "OUT-PATIENT" ... B/C THEY *NEVER* WANT TO *GIVE YOU UP* AS A *SOURCE OF CONTINUING INCOME* -- THE *REAL MOTIVE* OF THEIR "CARE") B/C HE "MENTIONED GOD ... TOO MUCH, Y'KNOW?"

    THESE ARE THE "BRILLIANT SHRINKS" WHO HAVE THE POWER TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT YOU LIFE YOUR LIFE AS A FREE MAN OR WOMAN ... OR WILL BE DRUGGED *IMMEDIATELY* UPON MEETING THEM.

    FINALLY, I WAS PLAYING *BEAT THE CLOCK.*
    THE STAFF (ESP. THE "2 PHYSICIANS" -- THAT'S *QUACKS* TO YOU AND ME) FINALLY GOT *SO SICK* OF MY *THERE'S NOTHING WRONG W/ME, AND WHAT AM I STILL DOING HERE?* ROUTINE (ESP. WHEN THE *OTHER PATIENT-PRISONERS* STARTED ASKING IT ON MY BEHALF WHEN MEETING W/THE STAFF WHILE I WAS NOT EVEN PRESENT) THAT THEY SOUGHT A COURT ORDER TO "FORCE-MEDICATE" ME ... WHICH IS THEIR "EUPHEMISM" (SINCE THEY'RE BRILLIANT, SOPHISTICATED M.D.S WHO DON'T USE GUTTER LANGUAGE LIKE "NEEDLES" OR "INJECTIONS" -- THOUGH THAT'S FULL WELL WHAT THEY INTEND) FOR TURNING ME INTO A PIN-CUSHION.
    SINCE I REFUSED "MEDICATION" FROM THE 1ST MOMENT I WAS THERE (OTHERS TOOK IT ORALLY), I WOULD BE SPECIALLY SINGLED OUT IN A SUPREME COURT APPLICATION (A HORRIFYING DOCUMENT I STILL HAVE A COPY OF -- I SHOULD REALLY POST PERTINENT PARTS OF IT SO YOU CAN TRULY SEE THE ASTONISHING MALEVOLENCE OF THE "GENIUS M.D.'S WHO'VE TAKEN THE HIPPOCRATIC OATH THAT GUIDE OUR SOCIETY LIKE SHINING BEACONS OF LIGHT" FOR WHAT THE F*CK THEY REALLY ARE) TO TAKE 8 NEEDLES PER DAY OF INJECTIONS.

    IF I DIDN'T "WIN" IN COURT (MY NAME AND REPUTATION WERE TORN TO SHREDS BY "OUR FRIEND" THE I.E. ... WHO GOT WIND THAT I'M NOT EXACTLY THE FORGIVING TYPE [HE SAID, JUST HAVING SUBMITTED 10 LAWSUITS (JUST THE BEGINNING, I PROMISE YOU) TO FEDERAL COURT (THE SMALLEST SUM IN ANY ONE OF THE CASES I REQUEST OF THE COURT IS ONE BILLION DOLLARS)], AND KNEW I WOULD PROBABLY COME AFTER HIM AND ALL OF HIS "M.D. FRIENDS" SINCE MY "MENTAL ILLNESS PREVENTED ME FROM APPRECIATING THAT THE SYSTEM WAS NOW WORKING AND I WAS GOING TO BE A FREE MAN NOW AFTER 50 DAYS OF LIVING HELL ... SHOULDN'T I JUST THANK GOD ... OR HIM ... OR GOD ... OR ...? IF HE DID A HATCHET JOB ON ME, THE OPPOSING COUNSEL [NOT KNOWING A GODDAMN THING ABOUT ME] SLICED ME AND DICED ME EVEN MORE; BUT SINCE IT WAS AGREED THAT I WAS NEITHER A DANGER TO MYSELF NOR ANYONE ELSE, NONE OF THEIR OTHER THEATRICAL BULLS*** MATTERED, AND I WAS FREE TO GO AND FIX UP THE LIFE THEY TORPEDOED, BUT WOULD NOT HELP TO CLEAN UP OR RECTIFY; IT'D BE TOO EASY IF WE WERE TO FIX IT ALL UP RIGHT HERE, NOW THAT WE HAVE EVERYONE ALL ASSEMBLED HERE AND ALL ... NO, NO; WE'LL LET THEM ALL GO FREE (EVEN THOUGH IT'S SUPREMELY CLEAR AT THIS POINT THEY'RE CRIMINALS), AND *YOU'LL* HAVE TO WIND YOUR WAY THOROUGH OUR TORTUOUS LEGAL SYSTEM *YOURSELF,* ACTING AS YOUR OWN ATTORNEY, GETTING YOUR OWN LEGAL KNOWLEDGE, AND PREPARING YOUR CASE *YOURSELF* ... FIGHTING SOME OF THE BIGGEST LEGAL ENTITES OUR "PINNACLE OF CIVILIZATION" CULTURE HAS EVER SEEN ... YOU GO DO THAT), AS SOON AS WE "GOT BACK" TO THE HOSPITAL, PROPER, I BELIEVE ... INJECTIONS WERE TO COMMENCE.

    AND I'D ALREADY GOTTEN A TASTE:
    ON THE 2ND DAY OF MY KIDNAPPING, WHILE IN THE PSYCH. E.R. (JUST MORE KANGAROO CRAP BY HIDEOUS UNPROFESSIONALS ... NO DIFFERENT FROM THE BOZOS YOU'D MEET AT ANY CIRCUIT CITY, ETC.), FOR THE "CRIME" OF READING THE NAMES OF MY CAPTORS OVER THE PHONE TO A FAMILY MEMBER ... THE MOMENT I HUNG UP THE PHONE 3 MASSIVE GOONS APPEARED, PUTTING ON RUBBER GLOVES ... AS IF THEY WERE AFRAID OF GETTING BLOOD ON THEM. WHOSE BLOOD, I WONDERED...?
    THEY PICKED ME UP, DRAGGED ME ACROSS THE ROOM INTO A SMALLER ROOM, SLAMMED ME DOWN ON A GURNEY, PULLED DOWN MY PANTS, PULLED DOWN MY UNDERPANTS AND STUCK TWO NEEDLES IN MY BUTTOCKS. I WAS OUT COLD FOR THE NEXT 24 HOURS.
    I STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY INJECTED IN ME.
    THAT TERROR NEVER LEFT ME FOR THE NEXT 50 DAYS.
    THE GOONS WOULD PERIODICALLY SHOW UP AGAIN AND AGAIN ... TO MY TERROR, OF COURSE.

    OUR EVIL, SICK SOCIETY WITH ITS DOUBLE-STANDARDS DOESN'T LOOK AT NEEDLES IN YOUR BUTTOCKS AS TANTAMOUNT TO ANAL RAPE, UNLESS YOU'RE FEMALE (SAY, YOUR DAUGHTER, OR YOUR GRANDMOTHER).
    THESE WERE NOT "PROFESSIONALS ADMINISTERING MEDICATION" -- THEY WERE THUGS, BRUTALIZING ME W/NEEDLES, W/LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN THEIR EMOTIONS AND MOTIVATIONS THAN THUGS IN ANY GHETTO.
    I'M SURE THEY'RE DOING THE SAME TONIGHT.
    WHO'S GOING TO STOP THEM?
    ME?


    I wanted to finish off w/just this one last bit:

    "Interestingly, NY also requires statements from two physicians to get an involuntary commitment."

    Do you even perceive how psychotic a statement that is? If ONE person is a "monopoly" -- is 2 that much better? One senior M.D., the other Jr. He's going to GO AGAINST his boss? PLEASE. You need at LEAST 3, any 5 year-old child could figure that out. But clearly the "geniuses running the system" can't.
    And "requires STATEMENTS"? What the hell is THAT?
    Involuntary commitment? What the hell is THAT?
    WHAT THE HELL KIND OF FRANKENSTEIN SOCIETY ARE WE LIVING IN WHEN YOU CAN DETERMINE "FOR SOMEONE" (WHO HAS NOT BEEN TESTED, TRIED, CONVICTED, ACCUSED, ETC.) THEY ARE TO BE "INVOLUNTARILY COMMITTED"?
    How would you like it if one of these psychotic doctors DID THAT TO SOMEONE IN YOUR FAMILY? You think they CAN'T? THINK AGAIN.

    In the massive link you provided (which I seriously doubt the "good doctors" keep every detail and nuance in mind as they make their vaunted "decisions"), I only got a quick chance to scan, but they seem FROM THE VERY START, TO MAKE THE SAME INSANE PRESUPPOSITION THAT ELM. HOSP. (AND I SUPPOSE MANY OTHERS) AND ALL THEIR DERANGED EMPLOYEES MAKE:
    THAT INNOCENT PERSONS WILL NEVER BE A FACTOR IN THE SYSTEM; THAT THE SYSTEM IS INFALLIABLE; THAT THERE NEVER NEED BE ANY TEST *FROM THE MOMENT THE VICTIMS ARRIVE OFF THE KIDNAPPING WAGON* TO SEE IF THEY'RE NORMAL. THAT THEY DON'T EVEN BELONG THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    BUT, OF COURSE, MY "STUPIDITY" IS I DON'T SEE: "EVERYONE *BELONGS* THERE" ... B/C EVERYONE *MUST BE BILLED.* THE MONEY MUST KEEP ROLLING IN. WE CANNOT HAVE ANY LAWSUITS. THEREFORE, EVERYONE *MUST* GET A LIFE-DESTROYING-CHARACTER-DESTROYING "DIAGNOSIS."
    IT'S JUST TO PROTECT THE M.D.S.
    THE HOSPITALS.
    THE SYSTEM.

    (Truly sorry for the length, all. Hey, c'mon; I had to type it all [w/no proofreading, I swear!]; you're just readin' it.)

    J.
  10. #70  
    Originally posted by ertonbel


    Thanks for the ref., "brief" as it is.
    It's nice to see a serious post in the avalance of levity that seems to have developed after the proof is in. (Btw, TK, there were 6 photos [explained on p.2 of this thread, I believe, for the person who asked] ... what happened to the others? They will no doubt lend even greater weight.
    I only received the '2nd set of pix', never got the 1st one, please resend them...

    Also I must urge you not to SHOUT so much and stop swearing, the SHOUTING only makes the the text even harder to read than it allready is and is plain rude...
    Any more SHOUTING and swearing and I'm closing the thread. If you want to discuss the topic, please do it in a polite way. I know you must feel angry/frustrated, but acting this way is not going to help...
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  11. #71  
    While I find ertonbel posts interesting, I find them to be a bit winded and long, for those interested, I found a pretty good text summarizer, while it's not perfect, it does a pretty good job of crunching down large blocks of text to just the key points..

    http://extractor.iit.nrc.ca/upload_demo.html

    You can also set this up as a link on your web browser to automatically process the web page you are on..

    (the link above will drop you to a screen where you can paste text copied from your clipboard)

    ertonbel - I think you would get more people to respond to your posts if you kept them under a few short sentences.. an average sized paragraph or two.. I feel most people see the size of your posts and simply ignore them and DON'T OVER USE TEXT ALL IN UPPER CASE AS IT LOOKS LIKE YOU ARE SHOUTING. (again something that most people will just ignore).
    Last edited by EricG; 07/02/2002 at 12:32 AM.
    "One of the most important things you learn from the internet is that there is no ‘them’ out there. It’s just an awful lot of ‘us’." -- Douglas Adams
  12. #72  
    Originally posted by John Nowak
    Absolutely fascinating, and something I hadn't heard about before.
    Not surprising. The only people that probably do know anything about it are the people whose ancestors went through it or those who are fans of Longfellow's fictional account.
    It's incredible how shallow in history some of the graves out there are, isn't it?
    I'm sure every culture has their skeletons if one looks into it.
    Of course, the Canadians can point out that it was unauthorized.
    Did anyone ask you if they could detain the 1500 or so people who were after 9/11 (even though nearly all have apparently been released)? I don't remember a vote.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #73  
    Originally posted by Toby
    Did anyone ask you if they could detain the 1500 or so people who were after 9/11 (even though nearly all have apparently been released)? I don't remember a vote.
    Does the government need a plebiscite to authorize arrests? That's new.
  14. #74  
    ertonbel:
    It appears to be your assertion that everyone else who was at the facility with you also should not have been there.

    If one of your points is that decisions were made about you by those who don't know you, can you really make that determination about those other people? Do you know the circumstances under which all 25 of them (your number) were admitted?

    Obviously, this has no real bearing on your case, but it would seem to strengthen your position that you didn't belong there if you also didn't insist that no one else did either.

    I reviewed the photos that were posted, but couldn't really determine what they showed.
  15. #75  
    Originally posted by Toby
    You should know. You are one.
    Hm. Well, I'm confused. Maybe you should explain this to me in another thread, so as to reduce the levity in this one.
  16. #76  
    Originally posted by K. Cannon
    ertonbel:
    It appears to be your assertion that everyone else who was at the facility with you also should not have been there.

    If one of your points is that decisions were made about you by those who don't know you, can you really make that determination about those other people? Do you know the circumstances under which all 25 of them (your number) were admitted?

    Obviously, this has no real bearing on your case, but it would seem to strengthen your position that you didn't belong there if you also didn't insist that no one else did either.
    I agree. During my training I cared for many people who where a danger to themselves or others and required involuntary commitment. All of them claimed that they were sane and didn't need the medication (for example the 300 lb gentleman who put two people in the hospital with broken bones because they were on "His sidewalk" and who then attacked another patient and a physician once in the unit) and they improved following medication (for example the 300 lb gentleman who was very pleasant and a wonderful artist when the voices stopped telling him to do things). The goal was not to "experiment" on them but to improve their lives. People who go into psychiatry in my experience are not out to make money but to help others.

    Speaking of money, ertonbel seems to imply that one of the underlying goals of the hospital and the doctor was to hold on to people to make money off of them. As medicare/medicaid and most insurance companies pay hospitals and physicians less than it costs to take care of the patients, especially with regard to mental health care, I suspect no one was coming out ahead in caring for ertonbel or any of the other patients.

    Finally, ertonbel seems to argue that two doctors is insufficient and that three would somehow be better. Why not five or seven? Things have to be practical. The statute specifically required two independent physicians. This is a safe guard as is the court proceeding if requested by the patient. Are people mistakenly held? Yes. Is everyone held inappropriately held? I don't think so!
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  17. #77  
    Originally posted by Pathdoc


    I agree. During my training I cared for many people who where a danger to themselves or others and required involuntary commitment. All of them claimed that they were sane and didn't need the medication (for example the 300 lb gentleman who put two people in the hospital with broken bones because they were on "His sidewalk" and who then attacked another patient and a physician once in the unit) and they improved following medication (for example the 300 lb gentleman who was very pleasant and a wonderful artist when the voices stopped telling him to do things). The goal was not to "experiment" on them but to improve their lives. People who go into psychiatry in my experience are not out to make money but to help others.

    Speaking of money, ertonbel seems to imply that one of the underlying goals of the hospital and the doctor was to hold on to people to make money off of them. As medicare/medicaid and most insurance companies pay hospitals and physicians less than it costs to take care of the patients, especially with regard to mental health care, I suspect no one was coming out ahead in caring for ertonbel or any of the other patients.

    Finally, ertonbel seems to argue that two doctors is insufficient and that three would somehow be better. Why not five or seven? Things have to be practical. The statute specifically required two independent physicians. This is a safe guard as is the court proceeding if requested by the patient. Are people mistakenly held? Yes. Is everyone held inappropriately held? I don't think so!
    Uh oh, get prepared to be yelled at, he won't like those comments.

    You are in on it aren't you?!

    I really think everyone should just let this thing die off, it's not like he can be reasoned with. His pics showed nothing, I am not sure if anyone ever doubted he was picked up and hospitalized. I am quite sure that he was (or should be). To bad he can't post the 24/7 video he has (OR DID CARNIVORE GET IT?) ITS THE ONLY WAY, THE WAY, THE NYC WAY TO GET $$$ FROM THOSE KIDNAPPED...

    ok, now I guess I am being mean :menu:
  18. #78  
    Originally posted by DingoFish
    I really think everyone should just let this thing die off, it's not like he can be reasoned with.
    As difficult to read as his posts may be, I am actually thinking about some issues that i previously never really considered. Also, he does have interesting turns of phrase and vocabulary (when he is not shouting)

    If he is bkbk, who used to post here, I remember that he also did have a sense of humor on other topics.

    Plus, I can't quit with this thread until I find out what a Texien is and how it relates to me.
  19. #79  
    Originally posted by DingoFish


    Uh oh, get prepared to be yelled at, he won't like those comments.

    I am yelled at almost every day, usually by a donor who does not like my decision not to accept them but also occasionally by my wife. I am used to it.

    I agree that this thread has lived on too long and will not comment nor respond further. As someone once told me "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It only wastes your time and annoys the pig".
    Donate Blood!!!
    Visit here to see how: America's Blood Centers
  20. #80  
    Originally posted by John Nowak
    Does the government need a plebiscite to authorize arrests? That's new.
    I think you missed the point there.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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