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  1. #61  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    This goes completely against everything our country was founded on. George Washington is turning in his grave.
    Hrrmm... perhaps the belief that dead bodies can self-motivate should be a deciding factor in whether one can vote or not <jk>

    The quip about kids not voting amuses me because pandering is a time-honored tradition in politics. Substitute 'jobs' for 'candy' when talking about 'buying' votes.

    The problem is that 'education', let alone 'proper education' is too broad of a topic to even attempt to approach as a qualifier. Besides, since the assumption is that truly democratic government represents all of the people, should the under-educated be allowed to cast a ballot no matter what their motivation is?
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  2. #62  
    Why not make it simpler, and require candidates for office to pass a basic civics test on the Constitution, Federalist, and Anti-federalist Papers? Other than that, any citizen that meets the requirements and registers to vote should be able to vote.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #63  
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    This goes completely against everything our country was founded on. George Washington is turning in his grave.
    With the sheer volume of people rolling over in their graves, this might account for the unusual earthquake activity around the world.
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  4. #64  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Why not make it simpler, and require candidates for office to pass a basic civics test on the Constitution, Federalist, and Anti-federalist Papers? Other than that, any citizen that meets the requirements and registers to vote should be able to vote.
    Ahhhh, now that's perfect. +infinity.

    It's not necessarily the voter that is scary, it's the people for whom said voter punches his/her ballot.
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  5. #65  
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenHex View Post
    @davidra

    I was trying to point out that elections are a way for all to decide their future. Not everybody will be happy with the outcome, but everybody will have made their choice (and will have to live with the consequences). The reason this is important: everybody would have exercised their own personal judgement and freewill irrespective of if they were the majority of minority. That is their contribution to their own future.

    The second thing I was saying in the previous post, selection of the electorate based on education is quiet arbitrary. Assuming that the educated somehow "know" better and have better judgement in these things, and enforcing such "standards" is saying that one (sub)set of people should have the full right to determine the future course of all. That's why excluding women from elections is considered a bad thing. It was thought that women did not have the mental capacity to make a voting decision. In my country, every person who is a citizen is allowed (and expected) to vote (same as the US, I guess). In many countries, minorities are not allowed to vote, giving rise to skewed priorities and resentment and helplessness among those who can't vote.

    And thirdly, democracies cannot afford to exclude even a single person from the electoral process, even if that person chooses not to vote. Why is this important? That's what equality is about. Each and every person has the right to aspire to be what they want. And elections ensure that they can participate in the larger political discourse as an equal to all his fellow citizens. This is the very definition of a "free" society. The voice of each and every person will be heard and make a difference.

    What we think we want of the future may well be wrong. In the end, whatever the outcome, things will even out.
    OK...well, clearly, one of us missed a point, because I agree totally and 100% with what you just wrote. Unfortunately there are some here that don't agree about what democracy is....and that some people are more "equal" than others.
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #66  
    Now if we're talking about electorate college.... that's another thing entirely!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. groovy's Avatar
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    #67  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    OK...well, clearly, one of us missed a point, because I agree totally and 100% with what you just wrote. Unfortunately there are some here that don't agree about what democracy is....and that some people are more "equal" than others.
    Perhaps GreenHex isn't the only individual you misunderstand. It helps, though, when you read what people write rather than what you think they mean.
  8. #68  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    It truly should be a no-brainer.
    Why is everybody and anybody allowed to vote for world leaders?
    Horribly horribly stupid idea. For example, the American government has trouble supplying certain demographics of the country your with adequate education. If your idea was to come to fruition, it would be a civil rights disaster. First, your own failures prevent certain groups from "reaching a certain level of education", then you tell the people whom you've failed that they can't do anything politically to improve their situation.

    I can see it now: "Lack of funding, over-crowding, environmental pressures, under-qualified educators, and student tracking continue to adversely effect test scores in African-American and Hispanic communities--- In other news, %70 of all minorities declared ineligible to vote under congresses new voter-intellect bill. --- In other news, newly elected officials have decided to cut back on education spending citing the deficit and mobilization of our enemies in the middle east. yeah, you're idea is all kinds of bad...

    I'm quite sure racism had nothing to do with your comment, but you HAVE to see the racial issues that would stem from this. The way the system is set up all but guarantees certain groups are not adequately educated. If you want smarter people voting, you improve education across the board. you don't just set a limit and leave most of the population without the tools to reach it.

    Furthermore, you're suggestion seems to imply that the educated are more likely to make decisions for the well being of the country. Welp, as it is, its the well educated who become the most wealthy and most influential people in our society-- they also happen to be the people who run it. and if you ask me, recent trends suggest that they seem to be more interested their own well being. The supreme court, filled with people who've spent twice as much time in the classroom as the average american recently established a precedent that placed this country firmly in the hands of big business. The idea that education breeds community minded individuals is a dangerous one.
    Last edited by Mhunterjr; 04/12/2010 at 03:55 PM.
  9. #69  
    Min requirements. hmmm does this include excluding people that drive too fast? Jump off cliffs with a parachute? Scuba dive under the ice with no rope? Rock climb without ropes? Get inverted on skis? Back country ski in high avalanche areas? If so, that gets me out of voting.
  10. #70  
    As someone from SC, I realize that making fun of a Governor is probably not very smart in light of what our Republican Governor, Mark Sanford, did. What Sanford did was, of course, extremely stupid (leaving the state without notifying anyone of his where abouts) and he has paid the price by likely ending his political career as well as a marriage. However, even though many may not agree with his political agenda, he was at least considered an intelligent guy who could actually discuss and explain issues.

    Where am I going with this? Well, I have been watching former democratic Gov Rod Blagojevich on Celebrity Apprentice (I know, stupid show, but sure has some humorous moments), and can anyone from Illinois explain how this guy was elected? Everyone on this show just seems stunned that he made it to the position of Governor. Other than being amazingly good at introducing himself to anyone on the street, he does not seem to have the ability to do anything. He didn't know how to work a computer and the notion of doing anything on a phone (other than talking) was completely foreign to him. I think his election can be used as an example of questioning letting any citizen vote. Can someone from Illinois explain this? What did democrats see in this guy that made them think he had any intelligence and the ability to run a state? Does the Gov of Illinois just have very little power and therefore inconsequential? What gives?
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  11. #71  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Perhaps GreenHex isn't the only individual you misunderstand. It helps, though, when you read what people write rather than what you think they mean.

    Maybe you should try the same. He posted about higher levels of education, I extended his idea with graphs, stating I didn't believe in literacy tests, and he mistakenly assumed I was arguing for them. You might try paying attention yourself.
  12. #72  
    It seems to me that a certain level of compassion and empathy should be required to post here.
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  13. #73  
    Quote Originally Posted by redshifted View Post
    It seems to me that a certain level of compassion and empathy should be required to post here.
    Sorry...too many republicans here for that. If you stay here a while, you'll see there are too many people that are only worried about themselves. Try somewhere else.
  14. #74  
    Quote Originally Posted by redshifted View Post
    It seems to me that a certain level of compassion and empathy should be required to post here.
    Same problem, though. How do you fairly measure it? Who's to judge what the minimum qualifications are?
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  15. #75  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sorry...too many republicans here for that. If you stay here a while, you'll see there are too many people that are only worried about themselves. Try somewhere else.
    It used to be fun to check-in to the off topic forum.
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  16. #76  
    Only smart people can vote? If you keep a people stupid ( poor schools, no jobs, just tell them they are inferior) and you know what you have a new class of ism to rule over! What a great plan......never.
  17. #77  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm reasonably sure you missed the point of the post. When you start putting explicit criteria up, beyond being a citizen and having to register, you may end up with significant unintended consequences. I do find it interesting that most of the people who favor literacy testing are conservatives...you can make whatever you want out of that statement. As I stated, I am opposed to any and all literacy tests.
    It makes perfect sense if you know who lives there. Many if not most of the states in red have higher than national average percentages of hispanics, blacks, and indian tribes. As mentioned earlier, these groups have lower levels of academic achievement compared to others. Eliminating many of those voters using illiteracy tests could swing some districts from D to R, or at least make them competitive.

    Here's an example district that might be competitive if that were the case:
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    Banning campaigns from handing out pre-filled sample ballots for the illiterate to compare against the real ones would probably weed some of that out too, but that will never happen either.
  18. #78  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra
    When you start putting explicit criteria up, beyond being a citizen and having to register, you may end up with significant unintended consequences.
    You did say this, and I quoted the same in my previous post. I clearly mis-read and mis-understood what you wrote last night, resulting in a lengthy post from me that added little to the discussion.
    Game over!
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #79  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Maybe you should try the same. He posted about higher levels of education, I extended his idea with graphs, stating I didn't believe in literacy tests, and he mistakenly assumed I was arguing for them. You might try paying attention yourself.
    My apologies. I stand corrected regarding the first half of my previous statement. However, I stand by the rest of it.
  20. #80  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    My apologies. I stand corrected regarding the first half of my previous statement. However, I stand by the rest of it.

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