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  1.    #1  
    ...in fog.

    A plane carrying the President of Poland, the heads of all its military, its national bank, its Olympic Committee, their deputy foreign minister and many others, crashed on landing in Russia. They all had come to commemorate an awful event committed by the Russians against the Poles before WW2, The Katyn Massacre.

    It was to be Poles first joint commemoration of the horror of Katyn forest along side the Russians -- who had long denied blame for what happened there.

    Before WW2, whilst still ostensible allies of Hiitler's Germany, Stalin ordered the murder of thousands of Poland's elite: Military officers, Professors, scientists, etc. -- men they had captured during Russia's invasion of Poland's eastern half in cooperation with Germany, which had invaded Poland's western half.

    Stalin ordered their deaths fearing they would lead resistance to his Communist takeover.

    Irony seems to be a particularly Polish affliction, and an especially painful one at that.


    Polish leader, 96 others dead in Russia jet crash
    By VICTORIA BURAVCHENKO and MONIKA SCISLOWSKA, Associated Press

    SMOLENSK, Russia – Polish President Lech Kaczynski and some of the country's highest military and civilian leaders died on Saturday when the presidential plane crashed as it came in for a landing in thick fog in western Russia, killing 97, officials said.

    ... which was taking the president, his wife and staff to events marking the 70th anniversary of the massacre in Katyn forest of thousands of Polish officers by Soviet secret police.

    The crash devastated the upper echelons of Poland's political and military establishments. On board were the army chief of staff, the navy chief commander, and heads of the air and land forces. Also killed were the national bank president, deputy foreign minister, army chaplain, head of the National Security Office, deputy parliament speaker, Olympic Committee head, civil rights commissioner and at least two presidential aides and three lawmakers, the Polish foreign ministry said.

    Although initial signs pointed to an accident with no indication of foul play, the death of a Polish president and much of the Polish state and defense establishment in Russia en route to commemorating one of the saddest events in Poland's long, complicated history with Russia, was laden with tragic irony.

    Reflecting the grave sensibilities of the crash to relations between the two countries, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin personally assumed charge of the investigation. He landed in Smolensk Saturday with an entourage of Russian officials to meet Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who was flying in from Warsaw. The president's twin brother, former Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kacynski, also flew there in a chartered plane...

    "This is unbelievable — this tragic, cursed Katyn," Kaczynski's predecessor, Aleksander Kwasniewski, said on TVN24 television.

    It is "a cursed place, horrible symbolism," he said. "It's hard to believe. You get chills down your spine."...
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/12/2010 at 02:20 PM.
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  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #2  
    If this story isn't prime for conspiracy theorists, I don't know what is.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #3  
    I see a grassy knoll in your future.
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  4.    #4  
    the truth is both more prosaic and more devastating.

    The pilot was repeatedly warned that conditions were unsuitable for landing, that visibility was minimal.

    He had made already 3 unsuccessful attempts -- and was coming in again for what he promised would be his 4th and last attempt.

    Though the international protocol for pilots and air traffic controllers (ATCs) is for them to use English as a common language, it seems as though the Russian ATCs did not speak English well. Apparently the pilot spoke Russian poorly -- and as a result there was a problem in communicating the concerns that ATCs had regarding the plane's altitude.

    Poland's President was on the plane (as were just about all of that country's leaders). No doubt they were all very concerned about getting on the ground in order to be on time for the Katyn Forest ceremony.

    But Poland's President had twice in the past reprimanded his pilot for wanting to abort landings because of unsafe conditions.

    No doubt that history, along with the overall pressure of making a scheduled ceremony -- compelled that pilot to force a landing in conditions he must have known were unsafe.

    I put much of the blame onto Poland's President -- whether he said anything to the pilot or not.
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/12/2010 at 03:16 PM.
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  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    the truth is both more prosaic and more devastating.

    The pilot was repeatedly warned that conditions were unsuitable for landing, that visibility was minimal.

    He had made already 3 unsuccessful attempts -- and was coming in again for what he promised would be his 4th and last attempt.

    Though the international protocol for pilots and air traffic controllers (ATCs) is for them to use English as a common language, it seems as though the Russian ATCs did not speak English well. Apparently the pilot spoke Russian poorly -- and there as a result there was a problem in communicating the concerns that ATCs had regarding the planes altitude.

    Poland's President was on the plane -- as were just about all of that country's leaders. No doubt they were very concerned about getting on the ground in order to to be on time for the Katyn Forest ceremony.

    But Poland's President had twice in the past reprimanded his pilot for wanting to abort landings because of unsafe conditions.

    No doubt that history, along with the pressure of making a scheduled ceremony, compelled that pilot to force a landing in conditions he must of known were unsafe.
    Good subjective reasoning. Hopefully a full investigation, analysis of the black box, etc., will belay any suspicions or causes for concern between Russia and Poland.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. groovy's Avatar
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    the truth is both more prosaic and more devastating.

    The pilot was repeatedly warned that conditions were unsuitable for landing, that visibility was minimal.

    He had made already 3 unsuccessful attempts -- and was coming in again for what he promised would be his 4th and last attempt.

    Though the international protocol for pilots and air traffic controllers (ATCs) is for them to use English as a common language, it seems as though the Russian ATCs did not speak English well. Apparently the pilot spoke Russian poorly -- and there as a result there was a problem in communicating the concerns that ATCs had regarding the plane's altitude.

    Poland's President was on the plane (as were just about all of that country's leaders). No doubt they were all very concerned about getting on the ground in order to to be on time for the Katyn Forest ceremony.

    But Poland's President had twice in the past reprimanded his pilot for wanting to abort landings because of unsafe conditions.

    No doubt that history, along with the overall pressure of making a scheduled ceremony -- compelled that pilot to force a landing in conditions he must of known were unsafe.

    I put much of the blame onto Poland's PResident -- weather he said anything to the pilot or not.
    That's what they want you to think.
  7. #7  
    Why were they all on the same plane? The company I work for has rules in place so that all leadership is never in the air at the same time, let alone on the same plane.
  8.    #8  
    Quote Originally Posted by noco37 View Post
    Why were they all on the same plane? The company I work for has rules in place so that all leadership is never in the air at the same time, let alone on the same plane.
    Prestige played a part no doubt -- which "leader" wants to be relegated to the backup plane, to flying commercial.

    This Katyn Forest commemoration was/is a BIG deal in Poland.

    This is america's 9/11 times a thousand.

    Everyone who was a somebody in Poland wanted to be there.

    Poland is not wealthy -- it has a limited air fleet. Though this Tupelov airliner was serviced recently (and nothing indicates that it was at fault in this crash), Poland has long wanted to replace them because they have an unusually poor safety record. They have continued to fly them simply because they haven't the resources to buy a Boeing.
    Last edited by BARYE; 04/13/2010 at 12:22 PM.
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  9. #9  
    As the "resident conspiracy theorist", let me just say that the whole thing would look legit except for this.

    1) Why would the Polish president and other important figures be on the same plane?
    Reports say it was financial (believable enough)Why On Earth Was Poland Still Flying The Tupolev Tu-154 Airplane?

    2) Why would so many important people fly on such an old aircraft?

    3) Why has it been reported that the pilot was dumping fuel? I've seen this quite a few times.
    Polish President Dies In Plane Crash After Pilot Ignored Warning Not To Land [Poland]

    I'm no expert, but I'm curious how dumping fuel would help in this situation? Do we have any pilots on the board?

    Needless to say, this is a very sad and unfortunate event. Lech Kaczynski was a US ally. If there was a conspiracy to be found, it's the Russians that would be the likely suspects. They have been losing more and more influence in Poland. For those that say they didn't have any?? You would be mistaken. That's all i'll say about that for now.... Need more updated info..

    I'll get right on that conspiracy for ya guys!
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  10. #10  
    there was an interesting discussion at the latest http://noagnedashow.com podcast I recommend everybody check it out.
    Check out noagendashow.com assassinating lamestream media!
  11.    #11  
    There are two primary reasons a pilot dumps fuel:

    1. a mechanical problem shortly after takeoff requiring an emergency return to the airport -- a fully fueled plane is too heavy to land safely, and it must jettison fuel to be light enough to land (especially wing tanks -- where weight might break the wings on a heavy landing).

    (Dumping fuel must be done in an intelligently sequential way from the plane's various tanks -- fuel dumping done stupidly could make a plane improperly balanced and unflyable.)

    2. A pilot anticipates a higher than normal probability of a crash (or a very hard landing). Dumping fuel is done to lessen the opportunity for it being a fiery crash.

    BARYE has of course landed 747's dozens of times with a very meaningful percentage of his passengers requiring only minimum amounts of reconstructive surgery (using his very own copy of MS Flight Simulator.)

    I therefore may or may not be an authoritative source of imaginative speculation as what might have happened.

    All we know for sure is that the crash happened when the plane hit trees during its 4th landing attempt.

    Many people assumed that this was because the pilot was an *****.

    Its also easy to imagine a headstrong president looking at his watch and tapping the shoulder of his pilot -- musing about how next time time he'd have a "professional" with guts flying his airplane -- and Mr. yellowpants can return to something more suitable to his skills -- like flying the mail.

    Though modern planes should be able to land blindly on instruments alone, its possible neither the airplane or the airport were equipped with the most modern or reliable gear (though the plane had been reported to have recently had its instrumentation upgraded) .

    Maybe the pilot lacked confidence in his instruments or his training (or was unfamiliar with the recently installed gear). Having missed his approach on his 3 previous attempts, the pilot would have wanted to be certain to get his eyes on the landing strip in a timely way. Given the density of the low level fog, he would have felt compelled to descend to a very low altitude.

    He'd been waved off during his 3 previous attempts presumably because he was on the wrong approach, he had the wrong landing target, or the wrong something. He would have REALLY wanted to see the runway on this last attempt.

    Dumping fuel also makes the plane lighter and more maneuverable -- there may have been important reasons why that was wanted.

    Unfamiliar with the airport or its terrain, he did not know that his flight path brought him below trees that surrounded the airport.

    ATCs attempted to warn him, but perhaps because of language difficulties or other reasons, he did not understand in time.

    Another possibility I've not heard discussed by anyone else, is that the plane stalled on approach because of a build up of ice on the wings.

    This plane had made repeated descents through dense wet fog, and climbs to cold altitude over northern Russia that had the potential to freeze that moisture into ice on his wings. I don't know the ice warning and de-icing capability of this Tupolev, but a distracted stressed out pilot might not have paid sufficient attention to this issue even if the airplane's instruments were reporting it properly.

    Its therefore conceivable that he crashed into the trees not just because he was confused and desperate, but because his plane had stalled and become unmaneuverable as it neared its final approach while it was already flying low.
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  12. #12  
    Whats the Polish word for Kamikazi? sorry it is sad. I dont know the aircraft in question. However, I do understand glide paths, min visuals, instrument landings. Most airports have min visuals, the airport i worked at on the north west coast of canada had a 1/2 mile min, with a 500 foot ceiling. Trust me, this is not much. Regardless of instruments, there is still the visual min that must be taken into account. 3-4 trys at an approach is uncommon, but not unheard of. If he was dumping fuel, on approach, then he must have been realtively sure he could see the runway. IATA standards are 45 mins of burn time for an alternative airport. More if the alt is further away.
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