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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    ..... And I don't see where I said that in my post. Where'd you see it?
    Oh, sorry, I guess you didn't say they were in there, just that "They meant all white men." is what you said. Still, where does it say that in the Declaration of Independence that they meant all white men, dude. And this thread isn't about the Declaration of Independence, slavery or racism. Maybe you should read more. Or at least retain more of what you read.
  2. #42  
    Quote Originally Posted by mayo1024 View Post
    Oh, sorry, I guess you didn't say they were in there, just that "They meant all white men." is what you said. Still, where does it say that in the Declaration of Independence that they meant all white men, dude. And this thread isn't about the Declaration of Independence, slavery or racism. Maybe you should read more. Or at least retain more of what you read.
    Yeah, maybe.
    It's a good thing you were here today to make these suggestions to me so I know what my intelligence level is.

    Thanks.
  3. d.moss's Avatar
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    #43  
    in actuality.. no man created land.. so how can we say who is allowed on any land.. all land should be open for anyone to come to at their will.. they'd still be subject to the laws of that land.. people should be able to migrate to wherever they choose!
  4. #44  
    They should not, however the US needs to make it easier to become a legal citizen.
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    #45  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    From Justice Matthews' decision in the case:
    God, you still miss the point, these are people from other places here by LAWFULL means. Visas, Immigration. IT DOES NOT COVER PEOPLE HERE UNLAWFULLY, Our Law is to detain and DEPORT People that are here UNLAWFULLY. BUT we don't enforce the law. The Bill of Rights, The constitution does not Pertain to People here UNLAWFULLY Period.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by d.moss View Post
    in actuality.. no man created land.. so how can we say who is allowed on any land.. all land should be open for anyone to come to at their will.. they'd still be subject to the laws of that land.. people should be able to migrate to wherever they choose!
    Welcome to 300 years ago. This is 2010. Get real.

    Being an American, if I were charged with a crime in another country, I would not expect the same rights as a citizen of that country. On the other hand, people think America should be the exception, it's a riot.

    If you're not a citizen of this country you shouldn't expect to be treated as such.
  7. Micael's Avatar
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    #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by d.moss View Post
    in actuality.. no man created land.. so how can we say who is allowed on any land.. all land should be open for anyone to come to at their will.. they'd still be subject to the laws of that land.. people should be able to migrate to wherever they choose!
    That would be great.... until they take the resources and earnings that we produced for ourselves and our children.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    They meant all white men.
    Why does everybody always forget that our founding fathers were racist slaveowners?
    Were they breaking some type of law? Was slavery illegal then? Not sure of your point. Are you saying that somehow black America will let us forget that at one time slavery was legal here? Fat chance of that....that little nugget gets thrown in our white face constantly. The bottom line, these extremely intelligent men made a document that could be changed to adjust as necessary, thus the 13th Amendment that made slavery illegal.

    However, there are many countries where black folks still deal in slavery. You seem genuinely concerned about the evils of slavery, maybe you should address these issues in these countries where it is still parcticed.
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  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by 063_xobx View Post
    I personally feel that the bill of rights applies to everyone citizen or not but would love to hear anyones arguments for/against this.
    Of course not. Membership has its privileges. We don't even give complete constitutional rights to convicted felons. Why would we extend them to people who break federal laws to get here?

    There are certain things that should be extended to them (no cruel/unusual punishment) but what is the "value" of citizenship if it applies to non-citizens?

    Instead, we give them public assistance, education, and the opportunity to stay because we are too "nice" to prosecute them and send them home...

    No other country would put up with it if we decided to move there (even Canada, England, etc.)
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 04/07/2010 at 10:06 AM.
  10. d.moss's Avatar
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    #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    That would be great.... until they take the resources and earnings that we produced for ourselves and our children.
    how are they gonna "take" what you/we have earned? you say that as if no one but americans like to work. if anything letting people move freely to other countries (not just the u.s. cause americans seem to think we're the only country that people want to come to) it would stimulate economies. more people working, more ideas, more money circulating. americans tend to forget that our forefathers stole this country.. for one.. indians weren't here cause this isn't india.. they were asians who got here by crossing the bering strait.. we killed them.. we stole southern land (tejas which is texas) from the mexicans.. now we say they can't come to the u.s!? really!? open up all borders and let people move freely.. until then we are all slaves to the countries we live in.
  11. d.moss's Avatar
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    #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by squeezy View Post
    Welcome to 300 years ago. This is 2010. Get real.

    Being an American, if I were charged with a crime in another country, I would not expect the same rights as a citizen of that country. On the other hand, people think America should be the exception, it's a riot.

    If you're not a citizen of this country you shouldn't expect to be treated as such.
    spoken like a true american.. did you read? i said if you choose to move to another country, you should be subject to the laws of their land. that goes for rights and punishment.. this goes for americans moving to other countries too.. tell me.. what's wrong with that?
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    #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    They're certainly here illegally. But, as I understand it, this thread is about whether the Bill of Rights applies to illegal aliens--not all constitutional amendments. For example, they can't legally vote but they are afforded equal protections as, for example, afforded by the first, fourth and fifth amendments.
    Yeah I kinda got lost in my own thoughts there . I actually think that illegal aliens should be afforded all the rights in the Bill of Rights. I think I'm preaching to the choir here, but I don't understand why people think that if someone believes illegal immigrants should have these rights then that is in some way advocating that they should get a free pass.

    Our government (no matter who runs it) has pushed for similar freedoms granted in the bill of rights all over the world, so why should rights being fought for, for citizens of other countries all of a suddenly be denied to those citizens that choose to break our laws and immigrate here illegally. Illegal immigrants should be punished in a way that is on par with their crime - fines, deportation, etc, not the removal of rights that are pretty much considered universal human rights.
    Last edited by solarus; 04/07/2010 at 10:05 AM.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Were they breaking some type of law? Was slavery illegal then? Not sure of your point. Are you saying that somehow black America will let us forget that at one time slavery was legal here? Fat chance of that....that little nugget gets thrown in our white face constantly. The bottom line, these extremely intelligent men made a document that could be changed to adjust as necessary, thus the 13th Amendment that made slavery illegal.

    However, there are many countries where black folks still deal in slavery. You seem genuinely concerned about the evils of slavery, maybe you should address these issues in these countries where it is still parcticed.
    Quick question:
    Who do you think made slavery legal?
    Those other countries you're talking about never tried to give the impression that everybody in their country would be equally treated, did they? No.

    But here, it says that "all men were created equal", right?
    If all men were created equal, then why were they treated as UNequals?
    It kind of makes that statement an outright lie, doesn't it?
    So who exactly made slavery legal?
    Oh, it was the slaveowners whom had control of the economy, wasn't it?

    This is really just a sidebar to the OP's question, but it could be tied in with a little thought.
    I agree that there needs to be tighter control of the situation, don't get me wrong, but what was written 300 years ago was written in a different society and we all know that.
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    It is what it is. If you dont like it, change it. Breaking the law because you dont agree with it isnt the answer.
    Civil disobediance?

    I didn't pay my taxes this year. I promise you, if a 50 million people did this the IRS would have a **** storm.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    They meant all white men.
    Why does everybody always forget that our founding fathers were racist slaveowners?
    First, many of the founding fathers opposed slavery. Read your history about Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, George Mason, etc.


    Second, you are guilty of flawed thinking. Note:

    Historian's fallacy
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The historian's fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision. It is not to be confused with presentism, a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas (such as moral standards) are projected into the past.
    The fallacy was outlined in 1970 by David Hackett Fischer, who suggested it was analogous to William James's psychologist's fallacy. Fischer did not suggest that historians should refrain from retrospective analysis in their work, but he reminded historians that their subjects were not able to see into the future.

    See also: Hindsight Bias and Presentism
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    There are certain things that should be extended to them (no cruel/unusual punishment) but what is the "value" of citizenship if it applies to non-citizens?
    It shouldn't have value. Just because your mom had the wherewithall to jump the border before pooping you out of her engorged belly means you gain these imaginary rights?
  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Quick question:
    Who do you think made slavery legal?
    Those other countries you're talking about never tried to give the impression that everybody in their country would be equally treated, did they? No.

    But here, it says that "all men were created equal", right?
    If all men were created equal, then why were they treated as UNequals?
    It kind of makes that statement an outright lie, doesn't it?
    So who exactly made slavery legal?
    Oh, it was the slaveowners whom had control of the economy, wasn't it?

    This is really just a sidebar to the OP's question, but it could be tied in with a little thought.
    I agree that there needs to be tighter control of the situation, don't get me wrong, but what was written 300 years ago was written in a different society and we all know that.
    The majority of the writers of the constitution were against slavery. Most had freed slaves or chose to not own them in any way. They left a framework that made the constitution easily amendable, otherwise there would have been no United States. Hell, we might still have slavery in parts of the US today if they hadn't left a compromise.
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by d.moss View Post
    how are they gonna "take" what you/we have earned? you say that as if no one but americans like to work. if anything letting people move freely to other countries (not just the u.s. cause americans seem to think we're the only country that people want to come to) it would stimulate economies. more people working, more ideas, more money circulating. americans tend to forget that our forefathers stole this country.. for one.. indians weren't here cause this isn't india.. they were asians who got here by crossing the bering strait.. we killed them.. we stole southern land (tejas which is texas) from the mexicans.. now we say they can't come to the u.s!? really!? open up all borders and let people move freely.. until then we are all slaves to the countries we live in.
    They (not all, but some) "take" by coming here to learn, organize, and commit acts of terror against America. In addition to life and liberty lost - think of the costs associated with measures taken to protect us after 911.

    They (not all, but many) "take" by consuming tax dollars for public assistance programs. They "take" by employment where they are paid in cash that is not taxed, and is often sent to relatives out of this country.(let's also blame the employers here - how many of YOU pay landscapers or house cleaners in cash?)

    Many other examples, but those are obvious.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    First, many of the founding fathers opposed slavery. Read your history about Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, George Mason, etc.


    Second, you are guilty of flawed thinking. Note:

    Historian's fallacy
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The historian's fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when one assumes that decision makers of the past viewed events from the same perspective and having the same information as those subsequently analyzing the decision. It is not to be confused with presentism, a mode of historical analysis in which present-day ideas (such as moral standards) are projected into the past.
    The fallacy was outlined in 1970 by David Hackett Fischer, who suggested it was analogous to William James's psychologist's fallacy. Fischer did not suggest that historians should refrain from retrospective analysis in their work, but he reminded historians that their subjects were not able to see into the future.

    See also: Hindsight Bias and Presentism
    Wow, that's a cool perspective of it.
    Interesting.
  20. #60  
    The opposite of legal is illegal. If you are not here by legal means or a legal citizen then you are an illegal. We have a hard enough time taking care of legal people. There should be NO ONE here in the USA that is illegal. Anyone that is, is by SIMPLE definition in violation of the laws of this land and as such should be deported. Period. There are legal means to come to the USA be it simple or not. Many do it the legal way everyday. All others need to follow the same route.

    A thought I had is if the USA only had legal citizens and people were knocking on our boarders, what would we be debating then? Open the door?

    I also know that if someone broke into my house and would not leave on demand, I would shoot them where they stand. Well the same holds true to the USA or any other country. Follow the rules or get out. Most other countries will pick an illegal up and jail them or ship them out.
    Last edited by Finally Pre; 04/07/2010 at 10:23 AM.
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