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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Please. I understand what you position is. It's just that your descriptive terms are based on your philosophy, not on fact. Your legislation is based on late-term abortions, not on those that take place over 90% of the time. There is NO evidence that abortions before 12 weeks result in "pain".

    I also understand that your passion leads you to this hyperbole, using terms like "killed" and "wrenched from the womb" and "sharp edges". There are very dispassionate ways of describing the procedures involved that are not as inflammatory and are more accurate...and you know it. Having said that, this is OT for this thread, and you are not going to ever change your use of hyperbole to bolster your own beliefs, so I don't see any reason to continue to argue about this.
    Thanks,

    I saw this thread go that direction, and at first didn't participate.
    Just call me Berd.
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    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I also understand that your passion leads you to this hyperbole, using terms like "killed" and "wrenched from the womb" and "sharp edges". There are very dispassionate ways of describing the procedures involved that are not as inflammatory and are more accurate...and you know it. Having said that, this is OT for this thread, and you are not going to ever change your use of hyperbole to bolster your own beliefs, so I don't see any reason to continue to argue about this.
    I'm glad to hear you've changed your position on the use of hyperbole.
  3. #143  
    Turns out this "doctor" got his information from the internets. Probably saw an email from a Tea Party pal and believed everything he read....
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I'm glad to hear you've changed your position on the use of hyperbole.
    Let me be perfectly clear about that.
    I am totally opposed to hyperbole, never having used it in my lifetime, ever, in any circumstances.

  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It appears the issue of abortion was one of the topics regarding health care that was of interest in this thread.

    So I thought I would address something I found by googling Guttmacher -
    the Doctor in the link you gave me to read.

    Dr. Alan Guttmacher stated: “Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save life.”

    Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, stated in a 1996 New York Times editorial that because of the advances in modern medicine, "partial-birth abortions are not needed to save the life of the mother"

    The Encyclopedia Americana states: “Since most women can be brought safely through pregnancy even with serious medical problems, few abortions need to be performed to protect the mother’s health. Most abortions are sought to avoid having a child.”

    Earlier someone posted that they hoped Woof would never be faced with choosing between the life of his wife or his child. It was obviously posted as a dramatization to foster emotion over facts.
    Just call me Berd.
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    It appears the issue of abortion was one of the topics regarding health care that was of interest in this thread.

    So I thought I would address something I found by googling Guttmacher -
    the Doctor in the link you gave me to read.

    Dr. Alan Guttmacher stated: “Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save life.”

    Former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, stated in a 1996 New York Times editorial that because of the advances in modern medicine, "partial-birth abortions are not needed to save the life of the mother"

    The Encyclopedia Americana states: “Since most women can be brought safely through pregnancy even with serious medical problems, few abortions need to be performed to protect the mother’s health. Most abortions are sought to avoid having a child.”

    Earlier someone posted that they hoped Woof would never be faced with choosing between the life of his wife or his child. It was obviously posted as a dramatization to foster emotion over facts.
    I'm sorry, but you misrepresent the discussion in each part of your post.

    1. "Almost any patient"? How much of a risk are you willing to take with a woman's life? Assuming you are married, please put a percentage on the risk you would be willing to accept for your wife. If an OB says "there is a 15% chance of her dying if she carries this pregnancy through delivery, and she is less than 12 weeks gestation, what would you do? What if it were 20%? Or 30%? And then, when you've answered, let's ask your wife.

    2. Koop's comments refer to partial-birth abortion, which is even rarer (extraordinarily uncommon) but the same risk equation holds, regardless of how commonly it occurs.

    3. As I stated when I first posted the question, and in reference to the above questions, I'm not saying these occur frequently. I am looking for your opinion about what you would do when and if it occurs. Are you totally opposed to abortion in any circumstance, no matter what? Although there aren't mass numbers, I can guarantee that there are women who have a significant risk of dying if they carry a child to term. Most of these women have their preganancy confirmed before 12 weeks. How much risk are you willing to accept on their behalf? Or would you rather allow them to make the decision? If anyone is using emotion over reality, it's you.
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm sorry, but you misrepresent the discussion in each part of your post.

    1. "Almost any patient"? How much of a risk are you willing to take with a woman's life? Assuming you are married, please put a percentage on the risk you would be willing to accept for your wife. If an OB says "there is a 15% chance of her dying if she carries this pregnancy through delivery, and she is less than 12 weeks gestation, what would you do? What if it were 20%? Or 30%? And then, when you've answered, let's ask your wife.
    You tell me I misrepresent, and then you ramble off numbers that are completely unrepresented.

    You want me to answer a hypothetical, embarrassingly unlikely to happen question for what? So that it somehow favors, or excuses millions of unnecessary abortions?


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Although there aren't mass numbers, I can guarantee that there are women who have a significant risk of dying if they carry a child to term. Most of these women have their preganancy confirmed before 12 weeks. How much risk are you willing to accept on their behalf?
    We don't need your 'guarantee', we have the numbers:
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    49,551,703 Total Abortions since 1973 in the US alone.

    Why Do Women Have Abortions?
    - a statistical breakdown

    Responses listed as primary reason %

    Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
    - Feels unready for child/responsibility 25%
    - Feels she can't afford baby 23%
    - Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19%
    - Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8%
    - Feels she isn't mature enough 7%
    - Interference with education/career plans 4%
    - Parents/Partner wants abortion <1%
    - Other reasons <6.5%
    TOTAL: 93%
    (Approx.)

    "Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)
    - Mother's Health 4%
    - Baby may have health problem 3%
    Rape or Incest <0.5%
    Keep in mind these numbers only apply to the US, where advancement in medicine has drastically reduced the risks.
    Also, these numbers go all the way back to 1973.
    It's obvious the medical industry has lowered these life threatening percentages to almost a fraction of a percent. The evidence is in the fact that Ireland – where abortion is illegal – has one of the lowest Maternal Mortality Ratios.

    Side Point, but related to thread:
    There was an article that showed US could also reduce the already rare cases if more Woman had the necessary healthcare.
    Just call me Berd.
  8. #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    You tell me I misrepresent, and then you ramble off numbers that are completely unrepresented.

    You want me to answer a hypothetical, embarrassingly unlikely to happen question for what? So that it somehow favors, or excuses millions of unnecessary abortions?




    We don't need your 'guarantee', we have the numbers:


    Keep in mind these numbers only apply to the US, where advancement in medicine has drastically reduced the risks.
    Also, these numbers go all the way back to 1973.
    It's obvious the medical industry has lowered these life threatening percentages to almost a fraction of a percent. The evidence is in the fact that Ireland – where abortion is illegal – has one of the lowest Maternal Mortality Ratios.

    Side Point, but related to thread:
    There was an article that showed US could also reduce the already rare cases if more Woman had the necessary healthcare.
    By those figures, that's almost 2 million abortions because of the health of the mother. Yes, things might be somewhat better now. But you just refuse to answer the question, because you can't. You don't know how you would respond in that situation until you are in it...which means you would value having the ability to make your own choice. Now if I'm putting words in your mouth, please correct me and say no, you wouldn't want a choice in that situation.

    And yes, I strongly agree with your last point, and it's one of the main reasons I am so passionate about universal coverage. But that doesn't mean this situation doesn't come up every day. Many many women, many more than the number listed, are put at lower levels of risk due to severe hypertension of pregnancy, inherited bleeding disorders, valvular heart disease...and yes, they can be aggressively treated to reduce their risk. But it should be their informed choice that determines the outcome....not yours.
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