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  1. #121  
    By the way, I mispelled his name above. I've corrected it now to Steven Levitt. You can Wikipedia him and find plenty of criticism, refutations and defenses of his rather controversial opinions. All I said in my original post was that pro-lifers should "Think about it." I never claimed him to be infallible.
  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by RolandStone View Post
    Did I claim he was infallible?
    Whether you do as a matter of fact is a distinction without a difference. The reality is that you make incessant appeals to authority regardless of the underlying merits.
    Last edited by foosball; 04/06/2010 at 11:50 PM.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    Whether you do as a matter of fact is a distinction without a difference. The reality is that you make incessant appeals to authority regardless of the underlying merits.
    Incessant? Really? Please cite some other examples.

    A distinction without a difference? But the very definition of the alleged fallacy REQUIRES an assertion that the cited authority is infallible. But I guess your personal definition eliminates that important distinction.
  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by RolandStone View Post
    U of Chicago Economist Steven Levitt writes that legalizing abortion cuts the murder rate by 50%. So if you're "Pro-Life" you might want to think about that.
    Where did he conduct this study, and over how many years did this study take place?
    Just call me Berd.
  5. #125  
    What an Unborn Baby Feels
    How does it feel to an unborn baby to be nestled securely in the warmth of its mother’s womb and then suddenly be assaulted with deadly force? We can only imagine, for the story will never be told firsthand.
    Most abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks of life. By this stage the tiny fetus practices breathing and swallowing, and its heart is beating. It can curl its tiny toes, make a fist, turn flips in its watery world—and feel pain.
    Many fetuses are wrenched from the womb and sucked into a jar by a vacuum tube with a sharp edge. The procedure is called vacuum aspiration. The powerful suction (29 times the power of a home vacuum cleaner) tears the tiny body apart. Other babies are aborted by dilation and curettage, a loop-shaped knife scraping the lining of the womb, slicing the infant to pieces.
    Fetuses older than 16 weeks may die by the saline abortion, or salt poisoning, method. A long needle pierces the bag of waters, withdraws some of the amniotic fluid, and replaces it with a concentrated salt solution. As the baby swallows and breathes, filling its delicate lungs with the toxic solution, it struggles and convulses. The caustic effect of the poison burns away the top layer of skin, leaving it raw and shriveled. Its brain may begin to hemorrhage. A painful death may come in hours, though occasionally when labor begins a day or so later, a live but dying baby is delivered.
    If the baby is too developed to be killed by these or similar methods, one option remains—hysterotomy, a cesarean section with a twist, ending life instead of saving it. The mother’s abdomen is opened surgically, and almost always a live baby is pulled out. It may even cry. But it must be left to die. Some are deliberately killed by smothering, drowning, and in other ways.
    Just call me Berd.
  6. #126  
    • At least half of American women will experience an unintended pregnancy by age 45[4], and, at current rates, about one-third will have had an abortion.[5,6]
    Sometimes data is worth more than hysterical fantasy writing. "slicing the infant to pieces"? "Painful death"? Yes, you're right, you have no idea if that's the case. Your fantasies about what is felt or not felt by a fetus with no developed nervous system is not based in reality.

    But here is an excellent collection of unbiased data about incidence and distributions of abortions. Have at it. And using the Woof method of avoidance, since probably less than 10% of abortions are after 12 weeks, why should we worry about it?

    Facts on induced abortion
  7. #127  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Where did he conduct this study, and over how many years did this study take place?
    Why are you asking me these questions when all you need to do is Google "Steven Levitt"?

    I'm really not interested in engaging in a debate over abortion. That's a no-win scenario with no chance of either side convincing the other to moderate their views. All I said was that Levitt's observations of a connection between abortion and murder rates was something pro-lifers might want to think about.

    And how did this topic take such a right turn into abortion anyway?
  8. #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by RolandStone View Post

    And how did this topic take such a right turn into abortion anyway?
    You are correct, and I played into it. So back OT:

    The Florida urologist who posted the announcement on his office door this week asking all supporters of President Obama's health care reform bill to seek medical care elsewhere caused quite a stir. As a primary care physician, I think his actions were both unethical and immoral, and I hope the Florida State Medical Board, the American Urological Association, and even the American Medical Association become involved with reprimanding his actions. I am not sure this doctor, who is obviously angry at President Obama for passing health care reform, but chose to channel his anger in a very childish and ineffective way, should be practicing medicine.
    Whatever happens to Dr. Jack Cassell, it's important that we not lose sight of important fact of medical training: the federal government provides enormous financial support for medical residents. So this doctor, who is now in his late 50's, was a medical student once, a process that takes four years. And after, that he completed five or six years of residency training in urology. Chances are pretty good that the federal government contributed large sums of money during the five to six years of this man's residency training to help make him the urologist he is today. Hopefully his operating room skills are more polished than his social and political ones.
    How does the federal government play a role in financing medical training? Training medical students and doctors is an expensive, labor-intensive process, though one that our society recognizes as not only necessary, but also worthwhile. Direct and indirect costs of training residents add up to about $150,000 annually for each of the more than 22,000 doctors in training. Medicare, a federal government program, contributes a whopping $9 billion annually to hospital-based residency training programs.
    Why does the government contribute to medical education and training? Our society recognizes the ongoing need for well-trained, compassionate physicians who will provide top-notch medical care. Just like our public school system, our federal highway system, and local public transportation systems, government steps in to fund ways to improve our lives and to make sure that academic medical institutions continue to train new physicians.




    Dr. Cassell's angry backlash against Americans who support health care reform was both unethical and immoral, in my opinion. But it was also extremely short-sighted. Any one who pays taxes, whether Democrat, Republican, or Independent, helped provide Dr. Cassell with his training in urology and most likely helps his practice run now. Folks like Dr. Cassell need to find better outlets for their anger while keeping their office doors open to all who seek medical care. Any American-trained physician could truthfully be called 'Dr. Government', and we all need to repay our debt to society by caring for any one who needs it, regardless of political affiliation.
    Many good points in this opinion piece.

    Sarah Lovinger: Dr. Government Will See You Now
  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression sperm alone can be nothing but sperm.
    You stand corrected. Cloning from individual sperm or eggs has been done.
  10. #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Analysis:

    Interesting statement. Is it the posters opinion?
    Both what can be a person? The first sentence mentioned sperm and abortions. Are we to surmise that either can be a person? An abortion is an act, a medical procedure. Is it possible to be a person? I'm no medical professional but I can read a biology book and a dictionary. My answer would be no.
    Sperm. Is it possible for sperm to be a person? Again no. it is biologically impossible for sperm to become a person. Yes it has the potential to fertilize and egg and become a person as part of a team effort if you will, but alone it is just sperm.

    So what is the point of this post? Taking these two statements independently because they dont seem to be related other than being in the same post, I would deduce that the poster has little or no knowledge of reproductive biology, but thinks long term sperm storage has merit.

    If I have missed the point please try to be more comprehensive and factual in your next attempt.
    Wrong. Try again.
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    #131  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    You stand corrected. Cloning from individual sperm or eggs has been done.
    Care to elaborate?
  12. #132  
    That doctor is just plain stupid! I'm so tired of hearing about things like this, because I "Thought" we were in the 21 Centry! But it's like were living in the 1700's, right in the middle of Bigotville! To the rest of the world we must look so freakin' ignorant! I have never had a doctor even talk to be about Politics, let alone deny me service based on how I vote. Why should it matter? Anyone can vote in any way they like, but when they start hurting others based on that; then we all have a big problem.

    How are we as a country ever going to evolve with bigots like that doctor chooing to hold onto the ignorant ideals that most people view has outdated nonsense?

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  13. #133  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    I would but the absurd rules on this forum along with the awful method of counting post says I can't post links. Google is your friend.
  14. #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by the2ndflood View Post
    That doctor is just plain stupid! I'm so tired of hearing about things like this, because I "Thought" we were in the 21 Centry! But it's like were living in the 1700's, right in the middle of Bigotville! To the rest of the world we must look so freakin' ignorant! I have never had a doctor even talk to be about Politics, let alone deny me service based on how I vote. Why should it matter? Anyone can vote in any way they like, but when they start hurting others based on that; then we all have a big problem.

    How are we as a country ever going to evolve with bigots like that doctor chooing to hold onto the ignorant ideals that most people view has outdated nonsense?
    It's funny that only the true ignorant bigots are the ones that use such vague and useless terms.
  15. groovy's Avatar
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    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanS View Post
    I would but the absurd rules on this forum along with the awful method of counting post says I can't post links. Google is your friend.
    Just tell me then.
  16. #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Just tell me then.
    Cloning is done with one sperm or egg... I assume you wanted some kind of link
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sometimes data is worth more than hysterical fantasy writing. "slicing the infant to pieces"? "Painful death"? Yes, you're right, you have no idea if that's the case. Your fantasies about what is felt or not felt by a fetus with no developed nervous system is not based in reality.
    The Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act (S. 356/H.R. 3442) Require that an abortion provider inform a woman seeking an abortion after 20 weeks fertilization that there is substantial evidence that the unborn child will feel pain during the abortion. The abortion provider would also be required to provide the woman the option of administering pain-reducing drugs directly to the baby.

    I posted some of the methods used to kill the fetus. Did you want to explain some of the methods used to kill the fetus that I might have overlooked?
    Just call me Berd.
  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Actually in in the rest of the developed world, where healthcare is "free," it's much less expensive, covers far more people, and leads to better quality care.

    Ignorance about the rest of the world is what has kept our healthcare system in the dark ages.
    If you don't mind the wait.
  19. #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by RolandStone View Post
    From what I've heard on TV (admittedly unreliable sources!), he practices in a predominantly Democratic neighborhood with a Democratic Congressman who has many black constituents. So a sign on the door saying "If you voted for Obama go elsewhere" (I think that's the gist of it.) Is tantamount to saying if you're black you should probably go somewhere else.
    That's not what the original article at the start of the thread says
    Cassell, who has practiced medicine in GOP-dominated Lake County since 1988, said he doesn't quiz his patients about their politics, but he also won't hide his disdain for the bill Obama signed and the lawmakers who passed it.
    I haven't bothered to look up where his practice is located, but it doesn't look like the population figures would support the TV story. FWIW, a little over 7% of the FL 8th district is black.

    Mount Dora - Mount Dora - Population overview
  20. #140  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    The Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act (S. 356/H.R. 3442) Require that an abortion provider inform a woman seeking an abortion after 20 weeks fertilization that there is substantial evidence that the unborn child will feel pain during the abortion. The abortion provider would also be required to provide the woman the option of administering pain-reducing drugs directly to the baby.

    I posted some of the methods used to kill the fetus. Did you want to explain some of the methods used to kill the fetus that I might have overlooked?
    Please. I understand what you position is. It's just that your descriptive terms are based on your philosophy, not on fact. Your legislation is based on late-term abortions, not on those that take place over 90% of the time. There is NO evidence that abortions before 12 weeks result in "pain".

    I also understand that your passion leads you to this hyperbole, using terms like "killed" and "wrenched from the womb" and "sharp edges". There are very dispassionate ways of describing the procedures involved that are not as inflammatory and are more accurate...and you know it. Having said that, this is OT for this thread, and you are not going to ever change your use of hyperbole to bolster your own beliefs, so I don't see any reason to continue to argue about this.
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