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  1. #41  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    And since this is a common occurrence it deserves that much more attention. In fact our local paper has at least a dozen such stories in the last few days.

    If live-saving abortion isn't an oxymoron, what is?
    Does it make a difference to you how frequently it occurs? Are you saying you are or are not in favor of abortion to save the mother's life? Do you think most people would sacrifice their spouses for a fetus? And even more precisely...how much of a risk would you be willing to take?
  2. #42  
    It's telling that the doctor refusing Obama supporters has no idea of what's in the bill:

    Doctor Against Treating Obama Supporters Admits Not Knowing What’s In Health Reform Bill
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  3. groovy's Avatar
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    #43  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It's telling that the doctor refusing Obama supporters has no idea of what's in the bill:

    Doctor Against Treating Obama Supporters Admits Not Knowing What’s In Health Reform Bill
    Liberaland, that's funny. I did notice the title of the article takes liberties with the facts. Furthermore, if things were that easily accessible, why wouldn't Alan just point to the legislation? He chastises Cassell for not learning more about the bill but he, himself, only quotes what others are saying about the bill.
  4. groovy's Avatar
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    #44  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Of course not. Only if they want to see their patients. Somehow, though, in areas where there are several major employers who sign on with one insurer, most doctors are willing to toe the line.
    But they have the choice. If they disagree with the guidelines they can opt out. Well, until now.
  5. #45  
    No idea about this A-hole. I am democratic and support Obama health plan but if my doctor had a sign in his office supporting the plan which asked patients who were against the health bill (or voted against it) to take their business elsewhere I would never ever visited that doctor again.
    Technological superiority has never won a product battle. If that were the case we would all be flying in supersonic Concordes and using Apple computers.

    The key to winning the battle is a combination of price, convenience, marketing, sound business model and a bit of luck.
  6. #46  
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehsan View Post
    No idea about this A-hole. I am democratic and support Obama health plan but if my doctor had a sign in his office supporting the plan which asked patients who were against the health bill (or voted against it) to take their business elsewhere I would never ever visited that doctor again.
    ....taking your business elsewhere is what an open capitalistic system is all about! But when gov't decides to tell all the docs what to do, it's not OPEN anymore!

    Why don't people flock to other countries w/ free health care? (b/c it's not that good or quick) If America is so terrible/corrupt, why do people keep coming here? You can't have everything. Want a society w/o stealing? Cut a hand off on the 1st offense. Problem solved, but you give up FREEDOM. More freedom means more of the "good" AND more of the "bad". Yes, some some people steal (white collar too), but lots of ppl get to "make it big". Health care is no different. People want health care to be cheap, want pre-existing stuff to be covered, and don't want to give up any of their wealth when something extreme happens. Supply/Demand 101 means that covering more people will raise cost...and that's fine. But anyone who says different is trying to "sell" you something. Don't forget to look at all of your mutual funds and see where the profits are coming from. You want to do all this Obama health care crap and keep prices low...don't expect any company dividends related to health care to keep paying out. For a select few, this will be good, but for the majority of us this will cost us more $. Think about it: I just wrecked my car...better go get insurance since the HAVE TO COVER pre-existing conditions! Same concept in health care...except there is emotion involved. This is bad business...and bad business fails after awhile. Now, let's all figure out what a failed health care system will be like....in probably 20+ years.
  7. #47  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Does it make a difference to you how frequently it occurs? Are you saying you are or are not in favor of abortion to save the mother's life? Do you think most people would sacrifice their spouses for a fetus? And even more precisely...how much of a risk would you be willing to take?
    1. Nope.
    2. Can't give an opinion until I am faced with that situation.
    3. Thats a personal decision and my opinion means nothing in any case that does not involve my family.
    4. I'll take no risk because being male I'll never have to worry about an abortion to save my life. Wife has had her tubes tied so she's not too concerned about the risk.

    See how easy it was for me to answer those questions?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
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  8. #48  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    1. Nope.
    2. Can't give an opinion until I am faced with that situation.
    3. Thats a personal decision and my opinion means nothing in any case that does not involve my family.
    4. I'll take no risk because being male I'll never have to worry about an abortion to save my life. Wife has had her tubes tied so she's not too concerned about the risk.

    See how easy it was for me to answer those questions?
    Fine. And isn't it wonderful that you have a choice as to what to do in this situation?
  9. #49  
    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Rhino View Post
    ....taking your business elsewhere is what an open capitalistic system is all about! But when gov't decides to tell all the docs what to do, it's not OPEN anymore!

    Why don't people flock to other countries w/ free health care? (b/c it's not that good or quick) If America is so terrible/corrupt, why do people keep coming here? You can't have everything. Want a society w/o stealing? Cut a hand off on the 1st offense. Problem solved, but you give up FREEDOM. More freedom means more of the "good" AND more of the "bad". Yes, some some people steal (white collar too), but lots of ppl get to "make it big". Health care is no different. People want health care to be cheap, want pre-existing stuff to be covered, and don't want to give up any of their wealth when something extreme happens. Supply/Demand 101 means that covering more people will raise cost...and that's fine. But anyone who says different is trying to "sell" you something. Don't forget to look at all of your mutual funds and see where the profits are coming from. You want to do all this Obama health care crap and keep prices low...don't expect any company dividends related to health care to keep paying out. For a select few, this will be good, but for the majority of us this will cost us more $. Think about it: I just wrecked my car...better go get insurance since the HAVE TO COVER pre-existing conditions! Same concept in health care...except there is emotion involved. This is bad business...and bad business fails after awhile. Now, let's all figure out what a failed health care system will be like....in probably 20+ years.
    Funny. I'm a doc, and private insurance companies tell me what to do at least as much as Medicare. Neither really has much impact on what I do, they just pay me. Some make it easier than others (like Medicare). Where in this bill do you see the government telling doctors what to do?

    Actually...they do go to places with lower prices, if not free.

    A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.[9]
    If by "freedom" you mean the ability to die because you can't get the care you need, yep, we've got that, unlike every other developed country.

    You must be highly trained in health care economics to be so confident about what's going to happen in the future. Can you please enlighten us about your training so we can give your opinion the attention it deserves? Or are you just mouthing off about something you know nothing about?

    And yes, health care is different. If you don't think it is, try going without it when you need it.
  10. #50  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    But they have the choice. If they disagree with the guidelines they can opt out. Well, until now.
    Must be an epidemic this morning. Where does it say anywhere that doctors have to accept anything, or see any patients? There is no more pressure on doctors with this bill than there was before, and most of it was applied by large private insurers. If a major company with thousands of employees signs up with Blue Cross, and they determine what they will reimburse, I have the choice whether I want to see their patients or not. Same with Medicare. I can choose to take no insurance, charge high prices to make up the difference, and tell both private and public insurers to **** off. And there's nothing in the health care bill that suggests that will change at all.
  11. #51  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Funny. I'm a doc, and private insurance companies tell me what to do at least as much as Medicare. Neither really has much impact on what I do, they just pay me. Some make it easier than others (like Medicare). Where in this bill do you see the government telling doctors what to do?

    Actually...they do go to places with lower prices, if not free.



    If by "freedom" you mean the ability to die because you can't get the care you need, yep, we've got that, unlike every other developed country.

    You must be highly trained in health care economics to be so confident about what's going to happen in the future. Can you please enlighten us about your training so we can give your opinion the attention it deserves? Or are you just mouthing off about something you know nothing about?

    And yes, health care is different. If you don't think it is, try going without it when you need it.
    funny you should use an example of "Medical Tourism". You do realize that most if not all of this is private healthcare, no govt. no single payer. Cash service.
  12. #52  
    Quote Originally Posted by cjgem View Post
    funny you should use an example of "Medical Tourism". You do realize that most if not all of this is private healthcare, no govt. no single payer. Cash service.
    Of course. And the reason is that we cannot find a way to offer it to our own citizens in a cost-effective manner. Many people would be willing to pay a reasonable amount for their care and have a catastrophic policy. Unfortunately our system has priced both of those things out of reach for millions and millions of workers.
    By the way, Americans do indeed go to other countries to get their "free" health care...like Sarah Palin.
  13. #53  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Since both of my teenage kids have pre-existing medical conditions and would have been unlikely to get their own medical coverage when they are grown, I would disagree.
    Actually the Pre-existing information is sorely misinterpreted. If the person who has a pre-existing condition has had medical coverage for the last 6 months 99% of the health insurance companies will cover that person. I know this first hand. My wife has MS and has for the past 7 years. When she got put onto short term disability the company she worked for only had to keep her on the books for 1 year. At that time she went from short term to long term. From there she went onto my insurance plan because we had gotten married by then. My company had changed providers 3 times now and each one has accepted her without an issue.
    In a world of droid, Pre does it better.

    Shouldn't we treat this world like the Garden of Eden and avoid the apple at all costs?
  14. #54  
    Quote Originally Posted by Major Payne View Post
    Actually the Pre-existing information is sorely misinterpreted. If the person who has a pre-existing condition has had medical coverage for the last 6 months 99% of the health insurance companies will cover that person. I know this first hand. My wife has MS and has for the past 7 years. When she got put onto short term disability the company she worked for only had to keep her on the books for 1 year. At that time she went from short term to long term. From there she went onto my insurance plan because we had gotten married by then. My company had changed providers 3 times now and each one has accepted her without an issue.
    Most group plans do. If she was in a group plan before, and married you when you were already in a group plan, it's not surprising she had no problems. Tell you what, try going into business for yourself or go work for a small employer and tell me how much coverage she'll get. I know a health professional that can't leave the university he works for because he'll never get insurance for a congenital kidney condition that was diagnosed late in life. He is stuck.
  15. #55  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Most group plans do. If she was in a group plan before, and married you when you were already in a group plan, it's not surprising she had no problems. Tell you what, try going into business for yourself or go work for a small employer and tell me how much coverage she'll get. I know a health professional that can't leave the university he works for because he'll never get insurance for a congenital kidney condition that was diagnosed late in life. He is stuck.

    Ahem I do have a Business of my own. I run a Web Hosting Business thank you very much. We employ less then 10 people


    For your Friend, He chooses not to leave. There are options that he has, He might not like those options but he still has them. No one as long as they have free will is stuck in a position them do not wish to be in. everyone has a choice. Just some of the choices they have to make are not ones they wish to make. At one time I felt the same as your friend. Stuck in a job because of my fiance's medical bills. MS is just one of the medical conditions that does not kill although I can guarantee that some of those that suffer from it some days wish it would.

    As for this Doctor which is what this thread is about. As long as he does not break his Oath, the law, or deny life saving services which I do not think he is. Then I support that he has the right to post anything and everything on his business premises. As the article states he will not ask people their political preferences when treating them.
    Last edited by Major Payne; 04/05/2010 at 08:28 AM.
    In a world of droid, Pre does it better.

    Shouldn't we treat this world like the Garden of Eden and avoid the apple at all costs?
  16. #56  
    Quote Originally Posted by Major Payne View Post
    For your Friend, He chooses not to leave. There are options that he has, He might not like those options but he still has them. No one as long as they have free will is stuck in a position them do not wish to be in. everyone has a choice. Just some of the choices they have to make are not ones they wish to make. At one time I felt the same as your friend. Stuck in a job because of my fiance's medical bills. MS is just one of the medical conditions that does not kill although I can guarantee that some of those that suffer from it some days wish it would.
    But isn't that the whole point? Should someone have to choose between their job and their health? If kids have medical conditions, should they have to choose a job / career / etc. (and be denied the ability to start their own business, for example) based upon whether they can ever get insurance?

    Why can other countries do this but we can't? Those who constantly claim that we're the greatest country should also answer why we don't have the ingenuity to both offer health care and also pay for it...or do we simply choose not to?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  17. #57  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    But isn't that the whole point? Should someone have to choose between their job and their health? If kids have medical conditions, should they have to choose a job / career / etc. (and be denied the ability to start their own business, for example) based upon whether they can ever get insurance?

    Why can other countries do this but we can't? Those who constantly claim that we're the greatest country should also answer why we don't have the ingenuity to both offer health care and also pay for it...or do we simply choose not to?
    Of course they shouldn't be denied the ability to start there own business. I did just that in Jan of THIS year. I once again am a owner of a small company and my fiancee is under my insurance plan. I do not wish to spam the forums with my web address but if you wish to know it I will give it out in a PM. Yes Other countries do it but please understand that the grass is greener on the other side. Those countries have issues with their medical too. we just don't hear about it because MOST people are selfish and only wish to hear about things around them or about them. I do not fault anyone on that though as some days I do this also.

    this was said of the Canadian Health care system

    Dr. Anne Doig, the incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association, said her country’s health care system is “sick” and “imploding,” the Canadian Press reported.

    “We know there must be change,” Doig said in a recent interview. “We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands.”

    Canada’s universal health care system is not giving patients optimal care, Doig added. When her colleagues from across the country gather at the CMA conference in Saskatoon Sunday, they will discuss changes that need to be made, she said.
    If I'm wrong about this I'm willing to admit it. But what if I'm right?
    Last edited by Major Payne; 04/05/2010 at 09:07 AM.
    In a world of droid, Pre does it better.

    Shouldn't we treat this world like the Garden of Eden and avoid the apple at all costs?
  18. #58  
    Quote Originally Posted by Major Payne View Post


    If I'm wrong about this I'm willing to admit it. But what if I'm right?
    It's not just about whether you or I are wrong or right. People in this country talk about universal coverage as if it was all the same, with primarily the UK or Canadian systems in mind. In fact, France and especially Germany have mixed public/private systems that are financially challenged, but very acceptable in terms of care and satisfaction. There are lots of different approaches, and in fact we already have a mixed approach with Medicare, Medicaid and private insurers. All we need to do is expand coverage. To think that the US, as the only developed country in the world without universal coverage, is the only country that's "right" is....well, unreasonable.
  19. #59  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Of course. And the reason is that we cannot find a way to offer it to our own citizens in a cost-effective manner. Many people would be willing to pay a reasonable amount for their care and have a catastrophic policy. Unfortunately our system has priced both of those things out of reach for millions and millions of workers.
    You think this bill or a single payer system will fix that? These private hospitals are getting business not only from the US, but other single payer countries as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    By the way, Americans do indeed go to other countries to get their "free" health care...like Sarah Palin.
    Oh, brother
  20. Micael's Avatar
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    #60  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It's not just about whether you or I are wrong or right. People in this country talk about universal coverage as if it was all the same, with primarily the UK or Canadian systems in mind. In fact, France and especially Germany have mixed public/private systems that are financially challenged, but very acceptable in terms of care and satisfaction. There are lots of different approaches, and in fact we already have a mixed approach with Medicare, Medicaid and private insurers. All we need to do is expand coverage. To think that the US, as the only developed country in the world without universal coverage, is the only country that's "right" is....well, unreasonable.
    It's not that we point to those countries that have single payer systems as being "right" or "wrong". We point to the problems they experience. So far, you haven't shown me one shred of evidence that we won't experience to decrease in health care quality that "standardizing" (aka rationing) care causes. Nor have you shown how this won't cost us a tremendous about of money through raising taxes and premiums.... something that, let's just say, is poorly timed at the moment.

    For the 10,000th time, davidra, both sides agree that we have problems that need to be addressed - and I don't like the idea of anyone not receiving adequate care regardless of their ability to pay. It's the problems of this administrations approach that we'd like to review and avoid. All water under the bridge (for now).
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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