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  1. #201  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Wow, can you spell "comprehension." I've defended innocent people against attacks smearing them-by people like you. I've not defended anyone's "vitrol." Defending people that have done nothing wrong (the vast majority of people protesting) is not defending the minority that have engaged in ugly behavior.

    For some reason you can't seem to comprehend that. Why you lack the ability to understand what is actually being talked about in a conversation is unknown to me.

    Again--very simply, there are two basic groups: The vast majority who are exercising their right of protest in a lawful manner, and the minority who have behaved badly in some way.

    If you had ANY objectivity or desire to understand what I've actually said, you'd have to acknowledge that I've not defended the bad actions of the minority at all (and in fact I've condemned them). Rather, I've defended the innocent against the efforts of people here who try and project the bad actions of a few on the whole--which is an inherently dishonest practice.

    Now, I hope that makes things very clear, since it is obvious that you failed to understand that based on your own reading.

    KAM
    Oh, I understand exactly what you've been trying to say. In your opinion, the teabaggers are mostly just fine upstanding folk who just want more control of the government and feel we are on the wrong track. Right? Nothing wrong with that, right?

    Unfortunately, until they rid themselves of the sign-carrying cretins that currently define them on the news and in print, which neither they nor the republicans have chosen to do, that will be what defines them. Yes, some leaders have decried the violence....but they haven't alienated themselves from the racist and derogatory signs. And before you go on and on about the signs that people protested with against Bush, please remember that there was no organized movement that claimed a political base for the left. On the other hand, the teabaggers have national meetings that are led off by racists (Tancredo) who are cheered, and their hero, Caribou Barbie, uses crosshairs and "reload" slogans. When they start acting responsibly and stop disrupting town hall meetings, educate themselves about the real issues (see Kenanator's link a few posts up) and actually have some discourse about political issues, maybe then your argument would make sense. Now it doesn't. You are defending the same group of people that show their savvy in that Youtube clip. Congrats.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #202  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Oh, I understand exactly what you've been trying to say. In your opinion, the teabaggers are mostly just fine upstanding folk who just want more control of the government and feel we are on the wrong track. Right? Nothing wrong with that, right?
    That's right...well, sort of. They want less government control of THEIR lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Unfortunately, until they rid themselves of the sign-carrying cretins that currently define them on the news and in print, which neither they nor the republicans have chosen to do, that will be what defines them.
    No, that will be what dishonest people like you will ATTEMPT to do, which is why you're so bothered by what I've been saying, pointing out your dishonest practices.

    Again--its funny how the "sign carrying cretins" don't poison the left, who by your logic would be guilty-by-association.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yes, some leaders have decried the violence....but they haven't alienated themselves from the racist and derogatory signs. And before you go on and on about the signs that people protested with against Bush, please remember that there was no organized movement that claimed a political base for the left.
    First--the Tea Party Protestors are not a uniform organization as you would like to pretend. Second, it is false that Anti-Bush protesters were not organized under various banners.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    On the other hand, the teabaggers have national meetings that are led off by racists (Tancredo) who are cheered, and their hero, Caribou Barbie, uses crosshairs and "reload" slogans.
    No, you just apparently do not have the ability to understand that there is not a uniform leadership or organization. Secondly, even within the more organized sectors of this broad group, you're under the mistaken impression again, that YOUR accusation defines reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    When they start acting responsibly and stop disrupting town hall meetings, educate themselves about the real issues (see Kenanator's link a few posts up) and actually have some discourse about political issues, maybe then your argument would make sense.
    Another fallacy--that YOU define what is legitimate and what isn't. I know you've demonstrated many times that you cannot deal with views that you disagree with, but again, that doesn't define reality. I'm sorry to break this to you, but you do not define reality.


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Now it doesn't. You are defending the same group of people that show their savvy in that Youtube clip. Congrats.
    Wow, some additional meaningless, inaccurate accusations. I'm defending the rights of individuals (be they in a group or not) to not be smeared by people who depend in inherently flawed tactics--such as those you continually rely on.

    Your inability to comprehend things, or deal with them in an honest or objective manner is your shortcoming, not mine.

    I'll make it very simple, so anyone can understand it. Individuals are not responsible for the actions of others--they are responsible for their own actions. You need to understand this, but it seems you are having a hard time with it. Attempts to smear individuals who have done nothing wrong is what I see happening, and what I've speaking out against.

    You're of course free to defend the practice of smearing innocents and applying guilt-by-association, but it will be called what it is.

    KAM
  3. #203  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You are attempting to forward yet another lie. Your inability to deal with what I say truthfully is way beyond tiresome.

    Let me point it out AGAIN, since you apparently cannot comprehend simple concepts such as these. The GROUP is not carrying these signs--some individuals are. You are relying on the lie that the actions of some individuals define the actions of the whole. Stop forwarding this lie. I know that you and others here are very unhappy that someone is pointing out that this guilt-by-association tactic that is being used, but I will continue to do so, because it is inherently dishonest.

    I could speculated on the reasons WHY you and others are insisting on this sort of dishonest practice, but that's not what's important. What is important is exposing the fact that you are relying on these lies and distortions, attacking innocent people.

    Secondly, I have not defended the INDIVIDUALS that have carried signs like this, Period. Nor have I defended any violent actions, or racist slurs, yet you have attempted repeatedly to forward the notion that I have. That's inherently dishonest. So I will say it again STOP LYING.

    If you cannot understand that individuals and groups as a whole aren't the same thing, then I'm not sure how to help you with this deficiency.

    Its interesting that someone who has whined about "lies" that the other side tells is so eager to depend on what is inherently false.

    KAM
    Tea Party candidate that wants to challenge Harry Reid isn't doing so well. Gotta love those felons, though. Maybe he can join Ensign in jail.

    LAS VEGAS A Nevada asphalt contractor who faces a legal challenge to his Tea Party of Nevada candidacy for U.S. Senate was hit Friday with felony theft and bad check charges in Las Vegas that allege he bounced a $5,000 business check last year.
    Scott Ashjian is one of a record 22 candidates, including 12 Republicans, running for the seat held by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, who is seeking a fifth term.
    Ashjian, owner of a business called A&A Asphalt, didn't respond Thursday and Friday to e-mail and telephone messages seeking comment on the criminal case or an explanation for what public documents suggest is a pattern of nonpayment of business and personal debts. A felony conviction would bar him from running for office.
    Records show Ashjian lost his state contractor's license Wednesday after failing to appear for a disciplinary proceeding stemming from a complaint that he bounced a $981.82 check to a materials supplier last year. Ashjian also does business as Jon Scott Ashjian.
    The Nevada State Contractors Board fined Ashjian $1,500 and ordered him to pay almost $1,150 in investigative costs, board spokesman Art Nadler said.
    Public documents on file with the Clark County Recorder show Ashjian also faced foreclosure on home loans totaling almost $1 million, owed a $200,000 Internal Revenue Service tax debt and faced city nuisance actions and liens alleging he failed to pay homeowners' dues, a roofer, and his trash collector
    The Associated Press: Nevada tea party candidate facing felony charges
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #204  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Tea Party candidate that wants to challenge Harry Reid isn't doing so well. Gotta love those felons, though. Maybe he can join Ensign in jail.
    That's interesting--sounds like that guy has all the markings of a politician (a joke). According to the left, the Tea Party folks and Republicans are one and the same. If they are just an arm of the Republican party, with such an organization (that you falsely claim they have) you'd think they could coordinate and avoid spilitting their vote.

    But I don't expect consistency in the flurry of propaganda coming from the left.

    Nice Deflection by the way.

    KAM
  5. #205  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I'll make it very simple, so anyone can understand it. Individuals are not responsible for the actions of others--they are responsible for their own actions. You need to understand this, but it seems you are having a hard time with it. Attempts to smear individuals who have done nothing wrong is what I see happening, and what I've speaking out against.

    You're of course free to defend the practice of smearing innocents and applying guilt-by-association, but it will be called what it is.

    KAM
    Innocents? I notice you chose not to include my comments about the First National Tea Party Convention in Nashville that was led off by overtly racist comments by Tancredo, who received lots of congratulations for his speech, and lots of applause as well. I guess the people that got him to come and be the opening speaker, and those that cheered weren't REALLY representative of the Tea Party. I mean, it was only their first national convention. Glad you support them too, though.

    Oh....and please. Take a look at Kenanator's clip. Bet you'll be proud. They kind of share your level of comprehension about health care reform.
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #206  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    You cant pay me to believe that. Bush was never in public like that while president, where you just happen to be driving by him. I was in galveston for ike when he made an appearance, go tell someone else that garbage. Until Obama he was the most protected man in history.
    I am not sure if the President was in the vehicles that I was near or not--probably not. I made no claim to have seen him directly. The point is that he was appearing at a location that had protesters right outside--not at some distant location.

    What you believe is up to you.

    KAM
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #207  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Innocents? I notice you chose not to include my comments about the First National Tea Party Convention in Nashville that was led off by overtly racist comments by Tancredo, who received lots of congratulations for his speech, and lots of applause as well. I guess the people that got him to come and be the opening speaker, and those that cheered weren't REALLY representative of the Tea Party. I mean, it was only their first national convention.
    Innocent people are innocent--again, your inability to be honest about this is your problem. YOU accusing someone of racism doesn't make it true.

    And to again correct you, I actually did quote that reference you mention again here. You'll excuse me if I don't take the time to respond to your repeated lies--bandwidth and all.

    AND, apparently you are ignorant of the fact that despite the name...it really wasn't a representation of the whole group at all. I guess you are confused by your own distortions. In fact--some other tea party groups weren't happy with those folks.

    You depend on so many fallacies in order to justify your hate of others you disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I you support them too, though.
    I said no such thing, so again, please stop lying. I'll tell you who I support. Unfortunately, you once again are depending on grade-school level rhetoric to make your "argument."


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Oh....and please. Take a look at Kenanator's clip. Bet you'll be proud. They kind of share your level of comprehension about health care reform.
    Why don't you take a break and take a look at the fact that you're engaging in a constant string of lies to justify YOUR reprehensible tactics.

    I'm getting tired of pretending that I'm talking to a rational, honest person instead of a petty propagandist. So, go ahead and keep lying and attacking innocent people if you must, but I'll keep pointing it out.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/27/2010 at 07:23 PM.
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #208  
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    "Straw distractions" LMAO LMAO LMAO So if I stand on the street corner with a dopey sign and spewing ignorance, no matter right or left, I am am not open for criticism? If I put myself into that position, and do get criticised, I am now a victim to you?
    No, you're just someone who depends on dishonest distortions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    You can call me whatever you like. However you feel comfortable to pigeon hole me to fit your needs. Where I do have an issue is when you say that it is wrong to label protesters, and in the same sentence, label me/whom ever you disagree with. It is as you were saying "It is not right for you idiots, to call them fools!"
    No, I said its wrong to accuse innocent people of things that they didn't do. Unfortunately, you can't seem to understand this simple concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    As I have been saying, the tea party was more than fine with calling themselves that from the start of the movement, until they found out the alternate meaning. Not my fault you did not catch that.
    You're using a pejorative term, meant as an insult--be man (or woman) enough to admit it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    You said "This nonsense is taking place on both sides currently..." Where is it on the left?
    Take off your blinders, and you'll see it just fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenanator View Post
    So you have never seen a lawful protest by liberals? You have never seen a peaceful protest by liberals? I am sorry that you have chosen to live in a world that is so one sided...
    I'm sorry that you live in a state where you don't understand sarcasm.

    KAM
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #209  
    Hello Everyone,

    Unfortunately, due to the numerous distortions here, I will just simply restate my purpose in this thread--that is to speak in defense of people who haven't done anything wrong. People who haven't thrown racist slurs, acted violently, or done anything except lawfully and peacefully protest, representing their views.

    These people are NOT the ones who ARE using racist slurs, or engaging in violence of advocating violence. Apparently, there is a real inability to discern between these people.

    Efforts have been made to attack and criticize a group, because of the bad actions of certain individuals. These sorts of people give bad examples for people to exploit (and they exist on the right and left), and are used to falsely accuse innocent people--like has been done here repeatedly.

    It is pretty simple--either you support the right of innocent people who have done nothing wrong to voice their views, or you do not and believe it is acceptable to disparage them with false accusations, by applying guilt-by-association (associations defined as the accuser wants), and broad-brush smear tactics.

    KAM
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    #210  
    Uh oh, it looks like there was at least some violence in Nevada today...



    "Supporters of Senator Harry Reid have just thrown eggs at the Tea Party Express bus caravan – striking at least one of the three buses (the red Tea Party Express bus) with multiple eggs."

    "About 35 Reid supporters had lined Highway 95 in front of the Nugget Casino in Searchlight where they were attempting a counter-demonstration the tens of thousands of tea party supporters who are gathering for the “Showdown in Searchlight.”
    So at least we know the quality of people who support Reid.
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #211  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    Uh oh, it looks like there was at least some violence in Nevada today...



    So at least we know the quality of people who support Reid.
    Ironic, but still, these are just a few individuals, not representative of all of Reid's supporters.

    KAM
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    #212  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Yes, when you also conveniently leave out the current death threats from the right. It's not simply a difference in perspective - it was a purposeful distortion of truth and it is simply dishonest.

    You don't have to agree with me on it - if you think it's within your view of honest debate, that's fine.
    Is this supposed to be tongue in cheek again? Because, frankly, I'm not seeing the humor. I know you can't be seriously impugning my honesty for doing the exact same thing you've been doing for the last 10 pages of this thread and, indeed, over the last many months in this forum. Or, maybe you've been tongue in cheek all along, I don't know. So, help me to understand.
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    #213  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Ironic, but still, these are just a few individuals, not representative of all of Reid's supporters.

    KAM
    I know, just playing the same game others are.
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #214  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Is this supposed to be tongue in cheek again? Because, frankly, I'm not seeing the humor. I know you can't be seriously impugning my honesty for doing the exact same thing you've been doing for the last 10 pages of this thread and, indeed, over the last many months in this forum. Or, maybe you've been tongue in cheek all along, I don't know. So, help me to understand.
    I have no idea, but I sort of doubt that he's joking. He is fully capable of engaging in that level of hypocrisy.

    KAM
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #215  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    I know, just playing the same game others are.
    Yes, I got your sarcasm, but I'm sure that others here would be more than happy to pretend that they DIDN'T get it, in order to justify their continued use of those sorts of tactics.

    KAM
  16. #216  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Hello Everyone,

    Unfortunately, due to the numerous distortions here, I will just simply restate my purpose in this thread--that is to speak in defense of people who haven't done anything wrong. People who haven't thrown racist slurs, acted violently, or done anything except lawfully and peacefully protest, representing their views.

    These people are NOT the ones who ARE using racist slurs, or engaging in violence of advocating violence. Apparently, there is a real inability to discern between these people.

    Efforts have been made to attack and criticize a group, because of the bad actions of certain individuals. These sorts of people give bad examples for people to exploit (and they exist on the right and left), and are used to falsely accuse innocent people--like has been done here repeatedly.

    It is pretty simple--either you support the right of innocent people who have done nothing wrong to voice their views, or you do not and believe it is acceptable to disparage them with false accusations, by applying guilt-by-association (associations defined as the accuser wants), and broad-brush smear tactics.

    KAM

    Thanks SO much for the clarification. I just wasn't sure what you stood for. Tell you what....when you actually have some data that says that most of teabaggers aren't fueled by hatred and racist views, please share it. Until then, you're supporting what they are represented by in articles and on the screen. The fact is you have no idea what percent of these people are racist airheads....but some certainly play them on TV. So let's have some real information. Do you even have a clue what a cop-out it is to say that they aren't really a group?
  17. #217  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Is this supposed to be tongue in cheek again? Because, frankly, I'm not seeing the humor. I know you can't be seriously impugning my honesty for doing the exact same thing you've been doing for the last 10 pages of this thread and, indeed, over the last many months in this forum. Or, maybe you've been tongue in cheek all along, I don't know. So, help me to understand.
    No humor at all unfortunately. You can say that I'm partisan...guilty as charged. But that's very different that posting a direct, purposeful distortion of the truth, such as your claim that the left is currently harassing Stupak. Unless you want to argue that the left actually is harassing Stupak, then I didn't impugn your honesty, your statement did.

    I hope I've helped you understand. I don't intend to address it again....if you're offended that I called you out on it, then I'm sorry you feel that way.

    (and, KAM, I'm sure you never get tired of the name-calling, but I'm sort of bored with it.)
    Last edited by Bujin; 03/27/2010 at 09:19 PM.
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  18. angiest's Avatar
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    #218  
    (and, KAM, I'm sure you never get tired of the name-calling, but I'm sort of bored with it.)
    wow, one of the worst offenders is tired of it. This thread may actually get somewhere now.
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #219  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    No humor at all unfortunately. You can say that I'm partisan...guilty as charged. But that's very different that posting a direct, purposeful distortion of the truth, such as your claim that the left is currently harassing Stupak. I didn't impugn your honesty, your statements did.

    I hope I've helped you understand. I don't intend to address it again....if you're offended that I called you out on it, then I'm sorry you feel that way.

    (and, KAM, I'm sure you never get tired of the name-calling, but I'm sort of bored with it.)
    What's really offensive is the self-righteousness in your accusations. The nit-picking to make a meaning point is merely laughable.
  20. #220  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    wow, one of the worst offenders is tired of it. This thread may actually get somewhere now.
    In the past week, I've been called a "damned liar", "*****", "hate-enabling person", "hypocrite", and "intellectual coward". Like or don't like what I say, but you won't find that sort of name-calling from me. Nice try, whoever you are.

    You guys can try to make it about me, because I dared to call someone out on twisting the truth (maybe expecting truth is just "nit-picking" to some), but I'm really not interested in that sort of silliness. Have fun, though.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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