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  1. #141  
    Originally posted by John Nowak




    As my father allways says: If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all....
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  2. #142  
    Here's a clean issue to discuss- in November 2004, I'll be 17, annd some of my friends will be 18. First of all, forget about them. Why shouldn't a seventeen year old not be allowed to vote? Because I can't make the right decision? That's bs. And it's a great way to solve these voter turnout issues, get someone started early, they'll keep doing it. Although I don't go to public school here in Philadelphia, I know there is a major fight with the state trying to privatize the schools. I know the students don't want this. They should have a vote!
    -Bernie

    "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
    -Dan Quayle
  3. #143  
    Originally posted by ernieba1
    Why shouldn't a seventeen year old not be allowed to vote? Because I can't make the right decision? That's bs. And it's a great way to solve these voter turnout issues, get someone started early, they'll keep doing it. Although I don't go to public school here in Philadelphia, I know there is a major fight with the state trying to privatize the schools. I know the students don't want this. They should have a vote!
    When I was 17, I agreed with you. At 43, I am less sure I do.

    One of my biggest concerns about the American system is that it tends to run by the polls- if the issue is hot and 'sexy', it is popular, if it does not generate airtime, it is dead. This is regardless of how badly we need the legislation (or, in too many cases, how much we DON'T need it!)

    Because of this, our country makes short-sighted decisions that already cause us problems- and will cause more problems for years! We are selling off old-growth forests to Japan and other countries, playing games with trade and business, alternating between too-restrictive and too-liberal pollution laws, etc.

    My gut feeling, one shared by many older people, is that a large youth vote would simply hasten this process. Young voters are often the majority, and are (if you will excuse me) pretty easily manipulated. Maturity gives you SOME tools to combat manipulation with (mostly in the form of bad experiences).

    Your school situation is a classic example. WHY should the students have a vote here? They are not paying a big share of the taxes involved, they are not hiring the graduates, etc. If this were a business, the harsh reality would be that the workers would have no vote in this issue.

    Another element to think about is where the line gets drawn. If 17 year olds get to vote, what about 16 year olds? If a 17 year old can understand the issues, etc., surely many 16 year olds can as well? And if many 16's can, how about 15's?

    I am not necessarily in favor of age being the main determination here. I sorta like Heinlien's idea that only people who have served in the military having a vote (although I would make it any of several forms of national service). I have seen another proposal that people can only vote after having paid in a certain amount in their taxes, as documented by the IRS (sort of a 'buy-in' system).
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are at!
  4. #144  
    Originally posted by Madkins007

    I sorta like Heinlien's idea that only people who have served in the military having a vote (although I would make it any of several forms of national service).
    Actually, so did Heinlein.
  5. #145  
    I am 17 and am very glad I was able to vote, even if it was because I will be 18 by November. I feel this is the way it should be, too. A lot of my friends did not vote, though they were old enough, and in some cases, registered, because there were no exciting races going on in the primary, except the mayor of our town, which they did not care about. I voted because it was my right and privelage and my ability to say - I voted for you because of this, or vice-versa.

    We even had our local congressman come to our school before the election. Still no turnout. If there was a race for President, or a competitive race for a smaller office, I'm sure they would of voted.

    The vast majority of people 17-30 that can vote do not. They simply don't care about the process. This won't change by making the voting age younger. This is terrible, IMHO, because we are the group that will be affected by today's big topics, such as nuclear arms reduction, or Social Security. The elderly that do vote, will not be around to see the long-term results of the actions we make today. We will be. It is up to the young voters to help make sure this country is going to be put on its right track for when we enter the workforce and will be heavily paying taxes, fighting the countries wars, taking social security (which was never intended to last this long), etc. What we need is some way to encourage everyone to vote.

    The only reason 18 year olds currently have the right to vote is because that is the age that they were drafted during Vietnam (please let's not start that discussion up...). The draftees correctly felt that they were being disillusioned in the process since they could be drafted to die for their country, but they could not vote for the people that make the decision.

    America currently has a average voter turnout hanging around 50% for presidential races. For the local primary in April I voted in, voter turnout state-wide was about 15-20%. France was complaining a few months ago about their record-low turnout of 75%. This is what we first must change.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  6. #146  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    The vast majority of people 17-30 that can vote do not. They simply don't care about the process.
    There are other reasons people do not vote. Some organizations have made it difficult for people to register or just to vote if they were registered (remember the 20 election and how most black voters in Florida were treated when they went to the polls?).
    During his 1987 or 1988 tour Frank Zappa made voter registration a top priority, and made arrangements -- or tried to -- in every municipality they went through to include a registration booth at the venue. In several instances, there was a great deal of resistance to the idea. Probably due to the public perception of Zappa as a freak. (this is of course long before the recent emphasis on voter registration.)

    I have voted in every election since I've been able. However, I did not vote in this past November election because I could not get any information about who was running in the elections for my township. There was no TV coverage for the races. The two local papers completely ignored them. My request for a sample voting sheet (a chart showing the names and parties of all persons running for election) from the election board went unanswered. I felt I and my township would be better served if I did not vote, than if I voted randomly.
    Between work (2 jobs) and commuting I only had a half-hour in which to go vote, but that isn't really a factor as my polling location is two doors away.


    The only reason 18 year olds currently have the right to vote is because that is the age that they were drafted during Vietnam
    My mother was directly affected by that. The same year she reached voting age, it was reduced.
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  7. #147  
    Originally posted by Yorick
    [B]Originally posted by terrysalmi
    [B]I have voted in every election since I've been able. However, I did not vote in this past November election because I could not get any information about who was running in the elections for my township. There was no TV coverage for the races. The two local papers completely ignored them. My request for a sample voting sheet (a chart showing the names and parties of all persons running for election) from the election board went unanswered. I felt I and my township would be better served if I did not vote, than if I voted randomly.
    Between work (2 jobs) and commuting I only had a half-hour in which to go vote, but that isn't really a factor as my polling location is two doors away.
    I sincerely hope that this is an isolated case. I'm not sure where you live, but where I live in Sarpy County, NE, I have had the opposite reaction. There have been voter registration booths at my high school during lunch, and there *was* information about the races. The local paper didn't cover the smaller races, school board, etc. as I would of hoped, but the county website did publish great sample ballots on the web.

    I also thought that you were supposed to be given time off work to go vote, if necessary. The same way if you are to work at a voting booth.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  8. #148  
    Originally posted by Madkins007
    My gut feeling, one shared by many older people, is that a large youth vote would simply hasten this process. Young voters are often the majority, and are (if you will excuse me) pretty easily manipulated. Maturity gives you SOME tools to combat manipulation with (mostly in the form of bad experiences).
    Gee, thanks. Sure there are some- ok, a LOT of minors like that. But there are also some who aren't. Let me also say that the are probably plenty of voters who are the same. Put yourself in a 17 year old's shoes and think about how it feels to be told that you are easily manipulated. Some of us youths read the paper, watch the news, participate in visorcentral discussion boards , and think for ourselves.

    Another element to think about is where the line gets drawn. If 17 year olds get to vote, what about 16 year olds? If a 17 year old can understand the issues, etc., surely many 16 year olds can as well? And if many 16's can, how about 15's?
    Well, this is solved by making the cutoff age somepoint in the middle of the summer where most schools would cut off the grades. That way, we could say instead of being 18 to vote, you need to be a high school senior. Of course, students get held back or moved up, so strike that and make it "age of the average high school senior". I realize this might not make a big difference in the vote, but it makes us happy .
    -Bernie

    "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
    -Dan Quayle
  9. #149  
    Yikes, I'm starting to use the "quote and rebute" method !
    -Bernie

    "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
    -Dan Quayle
  10. #150  
    Originally posted by ernieba1
    Yikes, I'm starting to use the "quote and rebute" method !
    Don't worry, that is an adult thing
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
    Do files get embarrassed when they get unzipped?
  11. #151  
    Originally posted by ernieba1

    Gee, thanks. Sure there are some- ok, a LOT of minors like that. But there are also some who aren't. Let me also say that the are probably plenty of voters who are the same. Put yourself in a 17 year old's shoes and think about how it feels to be told that you are easily manipulated. Some of us youths read the paper, watch the news, participate in visorcentral discussion boards , and think for ourselves.
    It was not ment personally, he even said: "(if you will excuse me)"

    The fact of the matter is that you are probably the minority and the minority allways suffers from the majority.. fact of life, get used to it...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  12.    #152  
    Yeah, look at Miradu, he is 15/16? and he is a contributing writer and reviewer for Visor/Treocentral. Man what I would give to be in his position....mmm Treo 90....and yes I know it's a volunteer job.
    Alex.
  13.    #153  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi


    There have been voter registration booths at my high school during lunch, and there *was* information about the races.
    Yeah, that's because Nebraska is known for being primarily Republican...think about it, your Bush and you want more seats in the Senate...appeal to the states that voted you in (Except Florida because they didn't really) and also appeal to the people who will be old enough to vote yet are still under heavy influence from their families. You, yourself, Terry stated that you are a proud republican like your family has been, statistics have proven that between the ages of 10-25(I believe) your strongest influence is your parents. A smart move on the Republicans' behalf if you ask me (I think I shall award Bush an extra 1/2 IQ point for that one...)
    Alex. (the Great II)
  14. #154  
    In a slight attempt at defense: They did not actively promote different party's at all. That was left up to us. And believe me, Nebraska has its share of liberals, mainly in the form of the kid-molding teachers. I had quite a share of debates with my high school teachers.

    Yes, I did follow my family. However, I still form my own opinion. On some individual subjects, I differ from my family. However, the overall viewpoint is the same. Whether this is direct strategy or not, it works. And in the high school I went to, there were quite a bit of liberal students - mainly because they believe everything the teacher says to be true. It could also be because I live in a suburb of Omaha that differs from the rest of the state because of Offutt Air Force Base two miles away (home of the Strategic Command, Air Force Weather Service, and the 55th Wing), and families always coming and going, but you could also argue military families usually also tend to be Republican.

    I am active with the Victory 2002 Campaign for our Gubernatorial, Congressional, and Senatorial races coming up in November. There has been no campaigning towards youth as of yet. Anything I have seen has been the county, acting non-partisan.

    By the way, don't forget Nebraska has the really screwed up non-partisan Unicameral.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  15.    #155  
    Ah yes, the unionist teachers...man o man the debates I've gotten into with my teachers. In Canada though, they're worse, they're downright socialists. Not to mention the fact that our province has had a socialist party (The NDP) in power for the last 8 years (Shudder!!!) and the unions have a hell of a lot of power. Evil Unions. Come to think about it, we do share a lot of view points, I consider myself to be more of a capitalist than a liberal and I love the Canadian Conservative party, the equivalent to the Republicans. I believe that there is nothing wrong with getting rich and, while I believe in helping out the little guys, I don't like being forced to through taxes and social programs. I believe in a fair percentage based tax system and that the rich shouldn't get taxed more than the poor just because they are more successful than the poor. Does that mean there is something WRONG with being rich??? I hate communism with vengance, I believe it is heavily flawed and will NEVER work. I only see it ever working in the future when through technology we are able to finally get rid of supply and demand, the basis of the economy, and therefore money. Until then let the best man win.
    That said, I DO think that some of the things Bush and his party have done are a little crooked, but, oust the Bush family and all their corporate friends taking advantage of the unknowing American populous and I think you would have another (albeit foreign) Republican.
    Alex.

    P.S. Since I started this post by openly question your support, I call a truce?
  16. #156  
    Originally posted by tantousha
    Ah yes, the unionist teachers...man o man the debates I've gotten into with my teachers. In Canada though, they're worse, they're downright socialists. Not to mention the fact that our province has had a socialist party (The NDP) in power for the last 8 years (Shudder!!!) and the unions have a hell of a lot of power. Evil Unions. Come to think about it, we do share a lot of view points, I consider myself to be more of a capitalist than a liberal and I love the Canadian Conservative party, the equivalent to the Republicans. I believe that there is nothing wrong with getting rich and, while I believe in helping out the little guys, I don't like being forced to through taxes and social programs. I believe in a fair percentage based tax system and that the rich shouldn't get taxed more than the poor just because they are more successful than the poor. Does that mean there is something WRONG with being rich??? I hate communism with vengance, I believe it is heavily flawed and will NEVER work. I only see it ever working in the future when through technology we are able to finally get rid of supply and demand, the basis of the economy, and therefore money. Until then let the best man win.
    That said, I DO think that some of the things Bush and his party have done are a little crooked, but, oust the Bush family and all their corporate friends taking advantage of the unknowing American populous and I think you would have another (albeit foreign) Republican.
    Alex.

    P.S. Since I started this post by openly question your support, I call a truce?
    With the exception of the last paragraph, I was asking if we were seperated at birth! Those are basically my viewpoints. Now you will never agree 100% with anybody except yourself, and even Thomas Jefferson had to go back on some things he believed in when he was President (He viewed the constitution strictly, and if it wasn't in it, it couldn't be done, though he bought land from France (the lousiana purchase) though the Constitution mentioned nothing about it...he couldn't pass up the great deal! (like me being anti-sony, but picking up a T615 tomorrow)

    Many of the original complaints you posted in your first long thread were overstatements. The way you quoted them was true, but there was a lot more to the story then you mentioned. Some things Bush has done I do not agree with, but for the majority, I support his actions and believe he has done a good job.

    You question Bush's corporate friends, but remember, this is no different than Clinton's union buddies.

    I accept the truce, though this thread has gotten remarkabely calm the last page or two...
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  17.    #157  
    Yeah, I guess it was the realization that the Republicans are just like Conservatives in British and Canadian politics (or the Tories if you want to be unofficial). And, in hindsight, I am beginning to agree with what Bush is doing. B.C. has had a socialist government for the past 8 years and in the last election we elected the BC liberals (Canadian liberals mean almost Republican but not quite) and we are undergoing a drastic change as the government tramples over the the Union's monopolies. Many people (especially those darn teachers) are outraged, but I say it's about time. I am a proud Union unsupporter! I have watched Unions singlehandedly kill a business owned by a friend of my dads and watch them drive away SO much business under the NDPs power. So Kudos to Bush and keep up the Union trampling! and go Corporate America...the only other last thing I don't really like about America is that large fast-food chains scarring the world. Going to UNESCO heritage sights and seeing a McDonalds there. I do understand it is their business but still..oh well..gotta live with it. I also think Microsoft is NOT a monopoly. I mean look at the whole Netscape vs. IE thing. Netscape claimed the end users were the ones being hurt. No we're not. both IE and Netscape are being distributed for FREE! where is the user being ripped off????
    Alex.

    P.S. did you know that Unions were actually started by organized crime in the 40s? Figures. It's still organized crime! I mean, if you don't like your working conditions...GET ANOTHER JOB! I've done it, my friends have done it, why don't you!!!! GRRR Now I am feeling feisty!!
    The last thing I don't agree with with Bush is his anti-environmentalist stand. I am not a tree-hugger, nor do I like or believe in Greenpeace or anything else, but I do think it needs to be addressed, even in just a minor way.
  18. #158  
    Ok - This is odd - you are actually going too far to the right for me! Unions in idea are not bad, but the way they control everything today is. President Bush does not need to trample the unions, as they have done many good things (and many bad, too); but he should keep them in line.

    And, your fact about unions being started in the 1940's by organized crime is dead wrong. Unions were started around the turn of the century after such incidents of the triangle shirt fire, where many workers were killed because of the terrible conditions, and they got big during strikes of mining communities around the same time. Unions were already alive and well by the 1940's.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  19. #159  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    Now you will never agree 100% with anybody except yourself,
    even that can be a problem sometimes ...

    ... though this thread has gotten remarkabely calm the last page or two...
    have to do something about that.



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  20. #160  
    Originally posted by Yorick
    Originally posted by terrysalmi

    ... though this thread has gotten remarkabely calm the last page or two...
    have to do something about that.


    There is no gravity......the whole world sucks.
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