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  1.    #41  
    The ICC has a jury, double jeopardy laws and you still have to confront the accuser. And go ahead, use your stupid nukes, start the dominoes, then russia will launch theirs, Pakistan and India will follow then everybody with nuclear capabilities. Sure you American's will have your "Freedoms", but it will be in a nuclear wasteland, if there even is one. Sure they used them in WWII, BUT NO ONE ELSE HAD THEM. Who would've retaliated, that's the whole reason they never used them during the cold war. In effect nukes are useless. And I am not saying that Europe will stop selling things to America, I am saying they will stop BUYING things. And don't think America can do the same. Right now the vast majority of electronics are manufactured by Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, Sanyo, etc. All Asian companies, not to mention the vast majority of cell phones are made by Nokia and LG both European companies. Also what about Aspirin? made by Bayer, a German company (no, it's not American, the Germans bought it BACK, and rightfully so). What about all your commuter trains and buses? most of which are made by bombardier a Canadian company. Not too mention our wood, oh wait, you DON'T BUY IT ANYMORE, and because of that, because you have to buy your wood from yourselves, your all paying on average 2000-3000 more for a house! Not too mention all the power we send you...The Californian blackouts last summer were because the government forgot (or didn't want to) pay their electrical bills they owe to Canada for all the power they buy from us. Your only solution is Nuclear and who wants that?! Not too mention the Oil from the Middle East (Quite frankly I found your remark about the terroist thing in an older post to be out and out RACIST!), remember the 70s? of course not, you weren't born yet, well neither was I but once again an area of research. See Terry? You **** of the world and we stop giving you stuff...The world won't suck up to you forever.
    Alex.

    P.S. I also forgot to mention you can say goodbye to Mercedes Benz, BMW, Land Rover, The New Mini, Volkswagon, Diamonds (canadian and African), Gold, Various other precious metals and Aluminum, Sugar. America, you are NOT God, so stop pretending.
  2. #42  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi

    - One may argue Europe faces stricter actions, and as a result, they are using Bicycle travel. This simply isn't possible in a country three times the size as Europe, where everything is more spread out.
    One of the most common mistakes...
    Europe, the USA and Australia are roughly the same size...

    take a good look at the world map...
    http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...jpg/802784.jpg
    or
    http://www.fipp.com/Images/worldmap.gif

    Please note:
    -Europe includes part of Rusia.
    -greenland is part of Europe.
    -the optical illusion on the CIA map... since it is centered on Europe that seems smaller than it is...

    Besides that, the size of the continent does not really matter for bikerides... Commuting Distance does for example.....Anybody who lives less than 10 Miles from his/her work and is in good health can in theory commute by bike..
    Besides that car economy in the average american car is terrible.. no matter which distance you drive that can be improved big time...
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  3.    #43  
    oh and the ICC has no jurisdiction over crimes in your own land, it's only crimes committed by American's while abroad. So no, none of your laws are being thrown out.
  4. #44  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi

    Funny. Because in the 1800's and early 1900's, this is exactly what America wanted. Ever read the Monroe Doctrine?
    Cutting off borders? Won't happen. Americans spend way too much money in Europe and Japan. Not to mention the nuclear umbrella America spreads over its allies. Remember that little organization called NATO?
    I wonder how many threaties Bush has to back out of before the first members start to back out of NATO....
    Using your nukes to get respect in the world seems to me like a bulying on an international scale...

    the simple fact is the US needs the rest of the world and vice versa.... but there is a limit on how much the world will put up with...
    <IMG WIDTH="200" HEIGHT="50" SRC=http://www.visorcentral.com/images/visorcentral.gif> (ex)VisorCentral Discussion Moderator
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  5. #45  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    What a great idea? Why keep taking oil from Saudi Arabia (Where a majority of the hijackers came from) or Iraq, when we can supply it ourselves?
    Oh, I forgot, you're more important than caribeu. What you think matters more. Paying a little less at the pump so you can (I'm not talking to anyone personally) skip some mass transit system, is worth ruining some other species' environment.
    -Bernie

    "One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is 'to be prepared'.
    -Dan Quayle
  6. #46  
    The freedom to recieve a trial by an impartial jury of their peers
    The freedom against Double Jeapordy - To be tried for a crime a second time
    The freedom to confront his/her accusor

    The exact freedoms America was based on.
    you mean the rights (freedoms? get off the horse...) we're denying immigrants?

    I think we need a new 'ism" to go along with Racism and sexism and such: Americanism (or maybe American Jingoism).

    The republican platform on the following issues:
    Kyoto: American Jingoism
    Rainforests: American Jingoism
    Human Rights: American Jingoism
    Defence spending vs. intl aid: American Jingoism
    ...and so on.

    Are the dems better? Not by half, but maybe by a quarter...

    It's too bad Gore is such a numb-head. Maybe I should go find a re-elect Clinton... or maybe Hillary should run...

    or Nader. He's pretty cool. You'd like him, terry, he's actually fairly conservative.
  7. #47  
    Nader is a bumbling *****, and you know it.

    The freedoms were denying immigrants? Hmm. Interesting. Because these freedoms are protected for immigrants. Funny how they recieve a trial before being deported.

    And BTW, you are willing to durn down your personal freedoms/rights that America was built on because you think Immigrants are not recieving theirs?
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  8.    #48  
    And your willing to turn down YOUR personal freedoms so "Terroists" won't blow up buildings? Do you KNOW how many people have disappeared, or been arrested and held indefinitly without even being told why, since Sept? About 5000...and not just those muslim terroists either...Besides do you think the terroists would really blow up buildings if they had nothing to be PO'ed about? I mean if America wasn't acting like such a jacka** on the world stage than maybe the world wouldn't be PO'ed at you guys. A nuke headed towards a city is easy to spot, but a small extremist group of People in a crowd ready to "make a statement" isn't. In a lot of ways Nukes are useless against Terrorism and you guys just DON'T GET IT!
    Alex.
  9. #49  
    Originally posted by tantousha
    I mean if America wasn't acting like such a jacka** on the world stage than maybe the world wouldn't be PO'ed at you guys. A nuke headed towards a city is easy to spot, but a small extremist group of People in a crowd ready to "make a statement" isn't. In a lot of ways Nukes are useless against Terrorism and you guys just DON'T GET IT!
    Alex.
    I invite Canada (or any other country) to take over America's position as the world's only superpower, and to see if you can do it any better. You can not please everyone.

    Nukes are not completely useless against terrorism. Take away Afghanistan, there are less places they can train effectively. Then you concentrate them where they do not have power, and take them out.
    Blue Visor Deluxe ~ Clie T615 ~ Zire 71 ~ Treo 650 ~ Palm Centro
  10.    #50  
    Nukes are simply useless because anywhere you use them because a smoldering, radioactive, uninhabitable hole. Chernobyl wasn't even a nuke blast and there is still a 30Km circle that is completely closed of to humans....Hiroshima and Nagasaki are just beginning to become "safe" again, but there are still an astonishing number of people dying from from the nuke related diseases...and that was over 60 years ago! Mind you the Kyoto Accord was an UNamerican treaty so I guess the world we are living in doesn't really matter...in that case nuke everybody. And lastly screw superpowers...who needs them....besides they've all crumbled over time..look at Ancient Egypt and Rome, Germany, Russia (Soviet Union). The only one to survive was Britain and they only survived because they gave up their superpower status and freed all of their colonies. If America doesn't smarten up and do the same than your basically dead in the water.
    Alex.
    Welcome to America! Where everyone has the right to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happy Meals!

    P.S. If everybody has the right to Life than why does the death penalty still exist?
    Last edited by tantousha; 06/09/2002 at 08:26 PM.
  11. #51  
    Originally posted by tantousha
    P.S. If everybody has the right to Life than why does the death penalty still exist?
    You have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness! Unless you screw up! or take away someone else's right to life, liberty and happiness! or happen to be anything other than a white, male landowner!


    edit: noticed that I didn't type the "be" in the last declaration
    Last edited by Yorick; 06/10/2002 at 08:20 PM.
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  12. #52  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    I invite Canada (or any other country) to take over America's position as the world's only superpower, and to see if you can do it any better. You can not please everyone.
    "Superpower" is an outmoded concept. America's foreign policy attitude of superiority and rightousness is exactly why so many smaller nations hate and fear us. It shouldn't be that way.


    Nukes are not completely useless against terrorism. Take away Afghanistan, there are less places they can train effectively. Then you concentrate them where they do not have power, and take them out.
    The use of a nuclear weapon should be a case of last resort. Even Truman was sorry he had to do it ... while it may have saved countless American lives and ended the Pacific war, it cost thousands of innocent lives in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    The light at the end of your tunnel has been disconnected due to non-payment. Please remit funds immediately for restoration of hope.
  13. #53  
    Remember, presidents as of late don't really do a LOT in terms of the big picture. Debating the merits of a president is, at best, like debating religion. No one is wrong in their own minds.

    It's more important just to be aware of what's going on...and there's a LOT going on right now and it's not all Bush's fault, either. A lot of the stuff we're blaming on Bush is very much our own fault for not being active citizens. That doesn't excuse him, but it's understandable in some cases. Terrysalmi, you are saying a lot of half-truths. Try to study the issues a bit more before stating your case and you will win more arguments.
    We're all naked if you turn us inside out.
    -David Byrne
  14.    #54  
    I agree with Homer. Unfortunately with the masses having simple minds, the complex political parties of today tend to get directly tied in with the thought to be omnipotent leader. The same thing happens up here in Canada with our PM and our Premiers. It sad but, at least in Canada, Our PM still has power to kick out crooked MPs and people who are interested in oneself over the country. In this case though, one has to wonder if Bush Sr. and his large corporation cronies (sic?) aren't just using Bush Jr. as a puppet. Look at all the things that have happened since Bush came into power, alot of those bills weren't his personally, but he did have a say in them and he did "choose" the people who are working in the positions they are. Go through the history of some of the Seceretaries and the Underseceretaries and you might be surprised how many of them are from the board of directers of companies who are against the ministry they represent. (that was a really bad sentence I know).
    Alex.
    Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happy Meals.
  15. #55  
    I'm a democrat who is sorely dissatisfied with 90% of the candidates the party puts forth. I'm also 99% unsatisfied with the candidates the republicans put forth (McCain and Jeffords (now independent) are exceptions to that).

    The two party system goes against many of the principles that the founding fathers of our country envisioned when they put the Constitution together. I have textbooks at home from my political science major courses that support this idea where every white landowner (remember, this was the late 1780's) decided for himself who the best candidate was. Remember: this was a bold political experiment in the 1780's and it still is today.

    Since, however, the system has evolved into a 2 party system with only 2 viable candidates, it has essentially become a popularity contest between two indistinguishable parties that put forth two indistinguishable white male candidates every 4 years after paying token lip service to minorities and women. We only have to pick the person who is the lesser of two evils in our minds.

    Remember, this was why Clinton won two elections because a majority of voters could not accept Dole or Bush 41 as president. Does this mean Clinton was better than either one? No. Clinton was a office-abusing sex-starved bon vivant. Americans simply believed that he was just a better president than the other two.

    The beauty of this country is that folks like terrysalami have the abolute right to say what he wants to say and support who he wishes to support. It also gives others like Septimus and tantousha the right to advocate a viewpoint contrary to his own.

    If 100% of Terrysalami's ancestral roots are native american, then I believe he is right to espouse anti-immigrant thoughts.

    If, however, he comes from miscegenated stock such as those pesky english, or snooty french or hard-nosed germans, then he should voluntarily leave the country. After all, he is descended from immigrants and is no longer welcome here per his comments.
  16. #56  
    Originally posted by NeilMcD
    I'm a democrat who is sorely dissatisfied with 90% of the candidates the party puts forth. I'm also 99% unsatisfied with the candidates the republicans put forth (McCain and Jeffords (now independent) are exceptions to that).

    The two party system goes against many of the principles that the founding fathers of our country envisioned when they put the Constitution together. I have textbooks at home from my political science major courses that support this idea where every white landowner (remember, this was the late 1780's) decided for himself who the best candidate was. Remember: this was a bold political experiment in the 1780's and it still is today.

    Since, however, the system has evolved into a 2 party system with only 2 viable candidates, it has essentially become a popularity contest between two indistinguishable parties that put forth two indistinguishable white male candidates every 4 years after paying token lip service to minorities and women. We only have to pick the person who is the lesser of two evils in our minds.

    Remember, this was why Clinton won two elections because a majority of voters could not accept Dole or Bush 41 as president. Does this mean Clinton was better than either one? No. Clinton was a office-abusing sex-starved bon vivant. Americans simply believed that he was just a better president than the other two.
    I agree with you, a 2 party system is only very litle more democratic than a 1 party system....
    In the netherlands they have about 15 parties and people have some real choice from far left till far right...
    That system isn't perfect either, but at least it is democracy as it was designed to..

    Originally posted by NeilMcD
    The beauty of this country is that folks like terrysalami have the abolute right to say what he wants to say and support who he wishes to support. It also gives others like Septimus and tantousha the right to advocate a viewpoint contrary to his own.
    Yes, freedom of speech is a very important freedom but,
    a) it is not unique to the US...
    b) Acording to Terry only when you are american you opinion matters...

    Originally posted by NeilMcD
    If 100% of Terrysalami's ancestral roots are native american, then I believe he is right to espouse anti-immigrant thoughts.

    If, however, he comes from miscegenated stock such as those pesky english, or snooty french or hard-nosed germans, then he should voluntarily leave the country. After all, he is descended from immigrants and is no longer welcome here per his comments.
    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $terry$'$s$ $roots$ $are$ $jewish$, $like$ $you$ $said$ $they$ $are$ $imigrants$ $too$ ($like$ $99$% $of$ $americans$)... $isn$'$t$ $it$ $ironic$?
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  17. #57  
    Originally posted by ToolkiT

    I agree with you, a 2 party system is only very litle more democratic than a 1 party system....
    In the netherlands they have about 15 parties and people have some real choice from far left till far right...
    That system isn't perfect either, but at least it is democracy as it was designed to..
    The 15 party system does not work! Take the Israeli Knesset (Parliament in hebrew) for example, with the parliament system. The members and the Prime Minister are not voted for - the party is. Then, the highest ranking people in each party take the seats they win, w/ the highest ranking member in the majority(?) party takes the Prime Ministership. Usually, noone gets a clear majority, and a government coalition will have to be formed. This means making 'more' false promises, etc., just so you can take power and start to get things done. Often, one of the 4 or 5 member parties of the coalition gets angry and leave, and there is no longer a coalition. Then the process starts all over again. If a new coalition cannot be formed, then new elections must be held. This is why Israel has had about 4 elections in the past 5 years.

    With the 'American' system, you can atleast vote for who represents 'you', instead of having to choose democrat or republican. You get to vote split-ticket (Republican for Congress, Democrat for Senate, etc.) if you want, and you don't have to be satisfied with the party's choices as congressman. It gives people with no political experience the chance to be in the Congress (Hey, it is the CITIZEN's GOVERNMENT!)


    Yes, freedom of speech is a very important freedom but,
    a) it is not unique to the US...
    b) Acording to Terry only when you are american you opinion matters...
    a) Freedom is not Unique to the U.S., but it is unique to Democratic governments. It is also THE most important freedom that the American people wanted when they recieved their independence. That is why after the Constitution was ratified, it was the VERY FIRST thing added to it.
    b) No, your opinion only matters if you participate and actively vote in the American system of government. I could care less what Australians or Canadians think of the job our President is doing, because you don't have to live with his every action. We do.

    AFAIKAFAIKAFAIK, $terry$'$s$ $roots$ $are$ $jewish$, $like$ $you$ $said$ $they$ $are$ $imigrants$ $too$ ($like$ $99$% $of$ $americans$)... $isn$'$t$ $it$ $ironic$?
    My great-grandfather on my father's side was an immigrant to America from Finland around the turn of the century, and on my mother's side, my Grandmother came to the United States when she was about 20 years old, as her family's sole survivor of the Nazi Holocaust. Her mother was killed by disease, while her father was gassed. (She was given an offer to buy her mother's ashes, but prisoners could not carry money). She survived 9 different Death Camps, including Bergen-Belsen and Auschwitz. (In fact, her birthday was 6 June). When she came to this country, she became heavily patriotic as this country saved her life, and never forgot it (and was an active Republican :-) ). Unfortunately, she passed away on May 1st of last year. My father converted to Judaism when he married my mother, and I have grown up Jewish (and is why I am so heavily pro-Israel). My Grandmother remembered that the American Red Cross saved her life, and was a lifelong volunteer. It made her extremely proud when my mom got a job with the Red Cross, and I became an active volunteer and donor (In 1999, I won the local chapter's Teen Volunteer of the Year Award). I am extremely proud of my heritage, and both sides of my family came to this country to find a better way of life, which they did. They came to this country legally, and completed their citizenship requirements proudly. When they were 'immigrants', they did not complain about the lack of welfare while they got a job of McDonalds while living on the street - they did something about it.

    I have no interest in helping immigrants who have come to this country illegally, or have no interest in becoming citizens, while planning not to leave.

    As a side note, my fathers side of the family is heavily democrat. My father, a retired LtCol in the US Air Force, broke the trend. When asked why he became Republican (shortly after moving out ), he said "he got educated."

    The beauty of this country is that folks like terrysalami have the abolute right to say what he wants to say and support who he wishes to support. It also gives others like Septimus and tantousha the right to advocate a viewpoint contrary to his own
    Exactly Right! This is the Freedom American's have. (It's a shame that so many people like Septimus voice the wrong side so much, though! )

    Try to study the issues a bit more before stating your case and you will win more arguments
    It seems you have bought my arguments about the Kyoto treaty - You've all shut up about it all of a sudden. I'm just taking this one comment at a time. And funny enough, this was the fortune today on my Visor - it fits tantousha perfectly (no offense):

    Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause.
    Last edited by terrysalmi; 06/10/2002 at 10:22 PM.
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  18. #58  
    Originally posted by terrysalmi

    The 15 party system does not work! Take the Israeli Knesset (Parliament in hebrew) for example, with the parliament system. The members and the Prime Minister are not voted for - the party is. Then, the highest ranking people in each party take the seats they win, w/ the highest ranking member in the majority(?) party takes the Prime Ministership. Usually, noone gets a clear majority, and a government coalition will have to be formed. This means making 'more' false promises, etc., just so you can take power and start to get things done. Often, one of the 4 or 5 member parties of the coalition gets angry and leave, and there is no longer a coalition. Then the process starts all over again. If a new coalition cannot be formed, then new elections must be held. This is why Israel has had about 4 elections in the past 5 years.
    Mmm I would not use Israel as an example of democracy...
    A 2 party system would not work over there either... their society is way to complex for that... frankly I wonder if there is a system that works at all over there, there is too much hate and anger to make any democratic system work... people over there want blood (both sides). Blood and democracy are not a good combination

    But take the Dutch system for an example. 15 Parties where most flavors of parties are represented, from communist to coservative.
    Everybody gets a chance.
    Yes it is not perfect, the large nr of parties make that no party will have the majority of votes so coallitions have to be formed. This is both a good and a bad thing.

    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    With the 'American' system, you can atleast vote for who represents 'you', instead of having to choose democrat or republican. You get to vote split-ticket (Republican for Congress, Democrat for Senate, etc.) if you want, and you don't have to be satisfied with the party's choices as congressman. It gives people with no political experience the chance to be in the Congress (Hey, it is the CITIZEN's GOVERNMENT!)
    I think a lot of people felt they had too choose for the lesser evil during the US election...
    the 2 parties in the US are both rightwing... if you are a 'lefty' you can only choose for the least right...not for a candidate that matches your preference.. is that democracy?

    Originally posted by terrysalmi
    a) Freedom is not Unique to the U.S., but it is unique to Democratic governments. It is also THE most important freedom that the American people wanted when they recieved their independence. That is why after the Constitution was ratified, it was the VERY FIRST thing added to it.
    b) No, your opinion only matters if you participate and actively vote in the American system of government. I could care less what Australians or Canadians think of the job our President is doing, because you don't have to live with his every action. We do.
    News flash: when Bush treatens to invade the Hague, it does involve me... He is invading my home country... he will be attacking a fellow NATO member...
    If he cancels Kyoto he polutes my air...
    If he starts WWIII I get drafted since I am a citicen of a NATO member...
    etc. etc. Bush effects my world, so I have a right to voice my opinion.
    The moment Bush only interveres inside the US you have a point, but as long as Bush interveres in the rest of the world, the rest of the world has the right to say what they think about it... and they have the right to be heard...


    Originally posted by terrysalmi

    It seems you have bought my arguments about the Kyoto treaty - You've all shut up about it all of a sudden.
    Read again... there are at least 2 replies to that you have not responded too...
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  19. #59  
    I actually registered just cause of this thread

    I'm actually from the netherlands, and our opinion does matter. If someone threatens to invade our country we sure have the right to react, the fact that some people don't even care what we think kinda scares me. Yeah we keep the right to invade your country open, but why should we care about your opinions?

    Second I read the challenge somewhere for some other country to take the US's position as superpower. That in my opinion indicates the biggest flaw of the US government at the moment, they actually do think in superpowers. Life is about working together and getting along together, not about being better then someone else, unfortunately many people in the US still see themselves as the superpower in the world and fight hard to keep that position alive, in the meanwhile the rest of the world doesn't care, the rest of the world rather collaborates, make agreements, work together, respect each other (except for some obvious hot spots), collaboration is the key to the future and a friendlier world. Feeling superior only turns people off and provokes negative feelings.

    Ps. no I don't travel on bike when I have to go to Paris for my work
  20. #60  
    Originally posted by Jefka
    I actually registered just cause of this thread

    I'm actually from the netherlands, and our opinion does matter. If someone threatens to invade our country we sure have the right to react, the fact that some people don't even care what we think kinda scares me. Yeah we keep the right to invade your country open, but why should we care about your opinions?

    Second I read the challenge somewhere for some other country to take the US's position as superpower. That in my opinion indicates the biggest flaw of the US government at the moment, they actually do think in superpowers. Life is about working together and getting along together, not about being better then someone else, unfortunately many people in the US still see themselves as the superpower in the world and fight hard to keep that position alive, in the meanwhile the rest of the world doesn't care, the rest of the world rather collaborates, make agreements, work together, respect each other (except for some obvious hot spots), collaboration is the key to the future and a friendlier world. Feeling superior only turns people off and provokes negative feelings.

    Ps. no I don't travel on bike when I have to go to Paris for my work
    Welcome Jefka! and very well said
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