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  1.    #1  
    While some may think it is an intellectual debate, the State of Virginia and others are reportedly filing Constitutional chalanges to the enacted Senate Bill on health care later today.

    Here is Cato's analysis:

    Is Health-Care Reform Constitutional? | Randy Barnett | Cato Institute: Commentary
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  2. #2  
    If Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid and federal income tax are constitutional I fail to see how healthcare reform is not. Sounds like a good way for these States to toss money they don't have in the trash bin.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 03/23/2010 at 09:26 AM.
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  3. #3  
    That will get about as far as the lip service about repeal....in other words, nowhere.
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  4. KAM1138
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    #4  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid and federal income tax are constitutional I fail to see how healthcare reform is not. Sounds like a good way for these States to toss money they don't have in the trash bin.
    The difference is that Those things are all simply taxes. Forcing someone to buy insurance is not a tax. I'm not all that familiar with the case, but Social Security was challenged on the basis that it was sold (PRPRPR $wise$) $as$ &$quot$;$insurance$&$quot$; $to$ $the$ $public$, $but$ $when$ $legally$ $challenged$, $the$ $government$ $said$ $it$ $wasn$'$t$--$it$ $was$ $really$ $just$ $a$ $tax$ ($and$ $that$ $is$ $literally$ $true$).

    In short--like it or not--the Government DOES have the power to tax its citizens. They do not have the power to force citizens to purchase something simply because they exist.

    I hope that helps you understand the differences.

    KAM
  5. #5  
    This is another avenue that we ( at least for now) have at a "semi"-free democracy. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out and the interpretation of the Constitution with rule of law.
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  6. KAM1138
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    #6  
    Quote Originally Posted by Finally Pre View Post
    This is another avenue that we ( at least for now) have at a "semi"-free democracy. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out and the interpretation of the Constitution with rule of law.
    While it should be obvious to anyone, that the Government is not empowered to force citizens to purchase anything as a consequence of existence, I am betting that this won't go too far. I think the Supreme Court will want to avoid this issue, but it may be forced upon them.

    KAM
  7. #7  
    I think that the Supremacy Clause will hold up against this, and I'm going to make sure I don't vote for the guy who came up with this bright idea.
  8. #8  
    I have to purchase vehicle registration and insurance as mandated by the government. I have to pay for American VISA renewal. How is this any different?
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 03/23/2010 at 10:09 AM.
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    #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I have to purchase vehicle registration and insurance as mandated by the government. I have to pay for American VISA renewal. How is this any different?
    Your state apparently requires you to purchase (liability?) insurance and pay a tax (registration) to drive on publicly funded roads. Want to drive on private property only? Go ahead, none of those would be required. Not sure what you mean by American Visa. So far as I know, I still don't need papers to travel between states.

    You have a choice not to drive. Apparently, if I don't want to buy health insurance or pay a penalty my only choice is to drop dead.
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    #10  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    While it should be obvious to anyone, that the Government is not empowered to force citizens to purchase anything as a consequence of existence, I am betting that this won't go too far. I think the Supreme Court will want to avoid this issue, but it may be forced upon them.

    KAM
    Since the states are plaintiffs in the case, the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction in the matter. It seems their only options are to hear it or dismiss it. This should not be a situation where they can simply refuse to hear an appeal.
  11. KAM1138
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    #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I have to purchase vehicle registration and insurance as mandated by the government. I have to pay for American VISA renewal. How is this any different?
    Visa Renewal--I don't know about that.

    Vehicle Registration is a fee for something you choose--to purchase a vehicle, to use on public roads.

    You aren't required to carry auto-insurance just because you live here.

    KAM
  12. KAM1138
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    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    Since the states are plaintiffs in the case, the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction in the matter. It seems their only options are to hear it or dismiss it. This should not be a situation where they can simply refuse to hear an appeal.
    Hence my saying it would be forced upon them.

    KAM
  13. #13  
    I have to pay to register the car every 2 years in MO. It's not a tax. There is a yearly tax but that is entirely separate.

    VISA = Visa (document) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are plenty of non tax items that the average American is required to pay (unless they want to stay at home and never leave).

    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    Your state apparently requires you to purchase (liability?) insurance and pay a tax (registration) to drive on publicly funded roads. Want to drive on private property only? Go ahead, none of those would be required. Not sure what you mean by American Visa. So far as I know, I still don't need papers to travel between states.

    You have a choice not to drive. Apparently, if I don't want to buy health insurance or pay a penalty my only choice is to drop dead.
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Hence my saying it would be forced upon them.

    KAM
    I don't think people really understand the significance of that, though. I have heard a lot of people wondering how long it will be tied up in district and appellate courts. It shouldn't be tied up long at all.
  15. KAM1138
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    #15  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    If the forceable buying of health insurance is deemed unconstitutional,that would set up the constitutional framework for single payor healthcare.

    It's just a tax afterall.
    That in itself is true, as I understand it. They can tax you (and do).

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The other way around it is to force states to make its citizens buy insurance or else they won't get federal funds for Medicaid, for example.
    Also true--the Federal Government often uses this sort of financial blackmail into de factor control of the States, which is of course a violation of the Constitution and entire concept of Federalism. Still--it happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    Any restrictions imposed by the Supreme Court will be easy to get around.
    That may be, but of course, that depends on the assumption that the Federal Government is able to prove that it has the power to provide health care to individuals at all (which it is not granted in the Constitution).

    So, you may be correct, but you're depending on falling back to another assumed interpretation being legitimate, which there is no guarantee.

    Further, I think you are perhaps ignoring political realities here. If the Supreme court strikes that down, many politicians who AREN'T ideologues are going to back off. I've no doubt that progressives who aren't concerned with things like the Constitution would in fact pursue the route you describe. There is no assurance that they will succeed. If they had a viable route to single payer, they would have done it instead of this. They barely passed this.

    KAM
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    #16  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I have to pay to register the car every 2 years in MO. It's not a tax. There is a yearly tax but that is entirely separate.

    VISA = Visa (document) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are plenty of non tax items that the average American is required to pay (unless they want to stay at home and never leave).
    Vehicle registration is a tax by another name. You put a sticker on your windshield? It's really the same as a Stamp (yesterday being the anniversary of the Stamp Act). It indicates a tax was paid (though called a fee).
  17. #17  
    Idaho enacted legislation a couple weeks ago making it mandatory to file a lawsuit against the Federal Government if this legislation passed and Butch Otter's a pretty smart cookie....don't think he'd have done this if he didn't feel he had grounds.
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  18. KAM1138
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    #18  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I have to pay to register the car every 2 years in MO. It's not a tax. There is a yearly tax but that is entirely separate.

    VISA = Visa (document) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are plenty of non tax items that the average American is required to pay (unless they want to stay at home and never leave).
    You're a foreign guest correct? I'm not sure how that would apply to you, but as a citizen, are there any other cases you know of, where a citizen is required to purchase something by the Federal Government as a result of merely being a citizen? I don't know of any myself, but there might be one that no one bothered to challenge.

    As far as the Fee charged by the State (not Federal government), that is a fee for a privilege.

    KAM
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    #19  
    That in itself is true, as I understand it. They can tax you (and do).
    The Constitution (as amended) allows taxes on income (hence the income tax proper, and Social Security and Medicare). All other direct taxes are supposed to be levied based on the census, but to my knowledge no such direct tax was ever levied. This, of course, calls into question the legitimacy of the inheritance tax, possible among other federal taxes.
  20. #20  
    Federally mandated health insurance is a tax by another name....therefor no problem.
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