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  1. #141  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    That's the point. Until called on it, he didn't. At that point it really says more about why he didn't object for 20 years until someone called him on it.

    Aren't you saying that "silence is approval" when a republican doesn't proactively disavow someone who says or does something disgusting or racist? Well, then use the same standard. 20 years of silence would equal 20 years of approval.

    And yes, the sermons and books are documented. No one has ever claimed that the racist nonsense just spontaneously started right before Obama decided to run for president. No one disputes that the rhetoric and screaming sermons were there long before that.

    ...unless, maybe he was abducted by an alien and his brain injected with a crazy person's brain. Ya, that's it. He was perfectly sane until right before the campaign started, and then he magically morphed into a crazy man that screamed hateful things from the pulpit.

    seriously, you are making KAM's case for him. Shall I hand you another shovel?
    Seriously can't believe you're trying to rehash that. Not going to start another off thread debate in this thread but you go right ahead.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #142  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I'll tell you what I think, and goes directly to the core of the health care debate. Those two were faced with a man with an increasingly debilitating disease and their political position would require them to turn their backs and say "so sorry".

    I actually think there is an ounce of decency in those two men that created dissonance that lead to their outrage.

    Or they could just be jerks.
    Well, my reaction is that they were just jerks, but I really don't know.

    I wonder--does this fellow get any medical care? Is he eligible for Medicaid or Medicare. Hard to judge his age, but he looked somewhat old. Perhaps less than 60 however.

    KAM
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Seriously can't believe you're trying to rehash that. Not going to start another off thread debate in this thread but you go right ahead.
    Just to be clear--I was not intending to rehash that issue, but rather, contrasting your reasoning.

    KAM
  4. #144  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Not a chance! (and I think it's vegan) Gladly accepts gift cards to Smith & Wollensky. (although I'm capable of admitting that beef is illogical):


    Love that restaurant, but Mortons is better

    Ok since you're a meat eater, you should research Codex Alimentarius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also research the growth hormones that are being injected into our cattle. We have numerous diseases that are skyrocketing (including parkinsons). Federally mandated hormones are being injected into our food! That doesn't bother you? Adults and Children are fatter, diseases are increasing. The Federal Government doesnt belong in our Food, our marriages or our healthcare.
    JMO
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    While I agree with your comment about what you feel, I don't believe this statement. You know exactly why they behave in that manner. Because they have been told lies about health care that no conservative will contradict, even though they know they are lies. This is the desired end point of the republican talking points. And you know it.
    Here are the lies I am telling. See if they cause someone to commit a crime or disgusting act and report back to us...

    -Govt programs and bureaucracy won't solve the problem, but will create more problems.

    -Congress isn't worried about results, and they certainly aren't worried about actually fixing anything.

    -Left alone, Americans are very charitable and will help those in need. As a percent of my income, I know I'm giving more than the crooks in congress.

    -There are other ways to solve problems besides more government. I would argue they are usually better ways.

    -This is not an all/nothing, fix it my way - or the highway issue. In my logic class they called that "the fallacy of creating a false choice."

    OK, let that ruminate for a few minutes, and let's see if those "lies" cause anyone to start shooting, mocking, or teabagging....

    ..anyone? anyone? Beuhler?
  6. #146  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    We "survived" without health care for several thousand years too. Of course, the average person died in their forties. Most of the improvements in survival over time have had to do with public health efforts...like clean water, improved living conditions and safe food. But feel free to eat off the ground whenever you want. Just whatever you do, don't give any credit to the government for doing anything good. Except, of course, I'm sure you favor pouring money into the military so we can develop universal health care for Iraq. Which we're doing, by the way.
    I have to give you a yellow card for that. You cannot shift the subject, and then assume that he takes one opinion you dislike on topic A and deduce from that a conclusion that he also holds a different (and objectionable) opinion on an unrelated topic. That's actually two flags on the same play. That's twice the time in the penalty box for you.

    I knew that logic class would come in handy one day, and here it is!

    Seriously, that was exactly the kind of nonsense I get from all the talking heads on TV from both sides of the aisle. The issue here is not "the military industrial complex and it's impact on the socio-economic development of south american economies and the geopolitical implications of last thursday's menu..."

    Have a seat. You can get back in the game after your time-out penalty is over... tick, tock, tick, tock...
  7. solarus's Avatar
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    #147  
    The behavior of those morons is despicable, regardless of whether the entire thing was bait by one side or not - you simply don't treat people that way.

    That doesn't change the fact that wanting an efficient government that spends wisely, enacts sensible and necessary reforms - not over-bearing reactionary ones (ex Patriot Act, Sarbanes-Oxley), and places limits around the free market instead of within the free market isn't a valid idea that's up for discussion.

    Using the logic of the OP, since the people in this video are obviously crass inconsiderate and plain old mean, and American, then all Americans are crass, inconsiderate, and mean.
    Last edited by solarus; 03/18/2010 at 03:14 PM.
  8.    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Here are the lies I am telling. See if they cause someone to commit a crime or disgusting act and report back to us...

    -Govt programs and bureaucracy won't solve the problem, but will create more problems.

    -Congress isn't worried about results, and they certainly aren't worried about actually fixing anything.

    -Left alone, Americans are very charitable and will help those in need. As a percent of my income, I know I'm giving more than the crooks in congress.

    -There are other ways to solve problems besides more government. I would argue they are usually better ways.

    -This is not an all/nothing, fix it my way - or the highway issue. In my logic class they called that "the fallacy of creating a false choice."

    OK, let that ruminate for a few minutes, and let's see if those "lies" cause anyone to start shooting, mocking, or teabagging....

    ..anyone? anyone? Beuhler?
    Before Medicare, only a third of the elderly had health insurance. Their state of health was totally dependent on being seen as charity care. Most had no care at all. Somehow the charitable didn't help them, any more than they are helping the tens of millions of currently uninsured get adequate care. Your charity idea doesn't work.

    The rest of your comments are opinions, not statements...therefore it's hard to call them lies. These are lies.

    This bill allows for death panels that will kill your elderly parents.
    This bill is a government takeover of the health care system.
    This bill will put us in a greater debt than we will be in without any action at all.

    Those are lies.
    There are no death panels. There is no public option. The CBO says it will save a considerable amount of money.

    No conservative or republican has been willing to say "those are lies" when it is clear they are. So yeah, if you haven't said that, you're not guilty of telling lies and generating the kind of hatred seen in the video. But if you're not willing to agree they are lies, then you are really saying you agree with them....right?
  9. #149  
    I don't have a problem with them mocking him, they can say whatever they want, it's a free country. I do have a problem with the guy throwing money at him. That was over the line. What a ******.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  10. #150  
    Quote Originally Posted by notaphonegeek View Post
    Love that restaurant, but Mortons is better

    Ok since you're a meat eater, you should research Codex Alimentarius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Also research the growth hormones that are being injected into our cattle. We have numerous diseases that are skyrocketing (including parkinsons). Federally mandated hormones are being injected into our food! That doesn't bother you? Adults and Children are fatter, diseases are increasing. The Federal Government doesnt belong in our Food, our marriages or our healthcare.
    JMO
    Yea, and gov't vaccinations are giving kids autism.

  11. #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    We "survived" without health care for several thousand years too. Of course, the average person died in their forties. Most of the improvements in survival over time have had to do with public health efforts...like clean water, improved living conditions and safe food..
    Generally, you are correct, but it also had to do with lifestyle, high infant mortality, wars or fighting, as well as social status. The people who were well off, generally lived longer.

    But feel free to eat off the ground whenever you want
    .
    I do, I grow carrots, tomatoes and watermelon and have an orange tree.

    Just whatever you do, don't give any credit to the government for doing anything good.
    I think you have a misunderstanding about Libertarians, maybe you should reread the US Constitution.

    Except, of course, I'm sure you favor pouring money into the military so we can develop universal health care for Iraq. Which we're doing, by the way
    He don't know me very well do he? We have no business in Iraq or Afganistan, or Germany or Japan or South Korea or Cuba.... shall I go on? We have become the very thing we revolutionized against in the Revolutionary war. We have become an Imperialist Nation!!!

    Think I'm lying? Read History.
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  12. #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    The problem is no one knows what the Tea Party stands for except a bunch of racist signs and talking points.

    You mean they stand for something else?
    Speaking of proof. How do we know that they people that were harassing that poor guy weren't left-wing nuts that were paid to behave like that?

    You know that sort of thing has happened before (on both sides of the issue). There have been plenty of events where instigators were planted, and where people committed fraud to prove a point.

    And how do you know that the camera was turned off before a bunch of right-wingers came over and tossed those idiots on their heads for being so stupid?

    Let's not write off half the country because of a couple of idiots.

    Beyond that, I don't agree that THE PROBLEM is that no one knows what they stand for. Personally, I think I know what they stand for. And that isn't what I stand for. Either way, that isn't THE PROBLEM... climate change is THE PROBLEM... oh, wait... wrong thread. (grin)
  13. #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Yea, and gov't vaccinations are giving kids autism.

    One more reason for less govt, not more govt...
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Yea, and gov't vaccinations are giving kids autism.

    Maybe we are getting a little off topic, but it's an interesting theory. Something is responsible, we just don't know what it is.
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  15.    #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I have to give you a yellow card for that. You cannot shift the subject, and then assume that he takes one opinion you dislike on topic A and deduce from that a conclusion that he also holds a different (and objectionable) opinion on an unrelated topic. That's actually two flags on the same play. That's twice the time in the penalty box for you.

    I knew that logic class would come in handy one day, and here it is!

    Seriously, that was exactly the kind of nonsense I get from all the talking heads on TV from both sides of the aisle. The issue here is not "the military industrial complex and it's impact on the socio-economic development of south american economies and the geopolitical implications of last thursday's menu..."

    Have a seat. You can get back in the game after your time-out penalty is over... tick, tock, tick, tock...
    Believe this...I'll ignore your suggestions about taking a timeout.

    All you have to do to redeem yourself is just list some of the good things that government has done. See if you can without relying on the military. Or is everything they've done for 200 years been a bad thing?
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    More on the Teabaggers:

    From the Tea Party Convention, Tom Tancredo speaks about the need for a literacy test before being allowed to vote...and everyone cheers. Why doesn't he just call for the re-institution of Jim Crow Laws?????
    WOW!!! This statement is extremely telling. Can't anyone else see the problem here? What does this line of reasoning say about the liberal view of minorities? Anyone?
    Nobody? Okay, I’ll tell you whats wrong with it. By equating the call for a “literacy test” as a requirement to vote with a return “Jim Crow laws” one is making the claim that restricting the rights of the illiterate is de facto restricting the rights of minorities. I personally see no correlation between intellectual ability and race but, hey, I’m not a liberal.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Before Medicare, only a third of the elderly had health insurance. Their state of health was totally dependent on being seen as charity care. Most had no care at all. Somehow the charitable didn't help them, any more than they are helping the tens of millions of currently uninsured get adequate care. Your charity idea doesn't work.

    The rest of your comments are opinions, not statements...therefore it's hard to call them lies. These are lies.

    This bill allows for death panels that will kill your elderly parents.
    This bill is a government takeover of the health care system.
    This bill will put us in a greater debt than we will be in without any action at all.

    Those are lies.
    There are no death panels. There is no public option. The CBO says it will save a considerable amount of money.

    No conservative or republican has been willing to say "those are lies" when it is clear they are. So yeah, if you haven't said that, you're not guilty of telling lies and generating the kind of hatred seen in the video. But if you're not willing to agree they are lies, then you are really saying you agree with them....right?
    The CBO has been wrong before. Assuming they are wrong now doesn't make it a lie.

    Assuming they are right, it will only matter if 100% of the savings goes directly to pay down the debt created to get all of those savings. If they were likely to do that, the $trillion the banks have mostly back would be going back to where we borrowed it. Instead, they are using it for other wasteful spending.

    By the way, that whole line of only one third of elderly had health care... you should probably tell us your source for that... and also recognize it was a different world then. Not many people had insurance, not many people had huge credit card debt. Not many people had braces, and on it goes. Lack of insurance doesn't equal lack of health care. Especially back then. People paid cash and took responsibility for their own well being. (At least that's how it looked on Leave it to Beaver)

    You can't quote statistics from 60 years ago to explain why you want to shift a tectonic plate in 2010.

    That's another penalty.
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 03:34 PM.
  18.    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Speaking of proof. How do we know that they people that were harassing that poor guy weren't left-wing nuts that were paid to behave like that?

    You know that sort of thing has happened before (on both sides of the issue). There have been plenty of events where instigators were planted, and where people committed fraud to prove a point.

    And how do you know that the camera was turned off before a bunch of right-wingers came over and tossed those idiots on their heads for being so stupid?

    Let's not write off half the country because of a couple of idiots.

    Beyond that, I don't agree that THE PROBLEM is that no one knows what they stand for. Personally, I think I know what they stand for. And that isn't what I stand for. Either way, that isn't THE PROBLEM... climate change is THE PROBLEM... oh, wait... wrong thread. (grin)
    As I said in an earlier post....you just can't say they were wrong without developing some kind of ridiculous conspiracy theory. You are willing to say that's not how you feel...but you just can't say it was outrageous and let it go at that, can you?
  19. #159  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Nobody? Okay, I’ll tell you whats wrong with it. By equating the call for a “literacy test” as a requirement to vote with a return “Jim Crow laws” one is making the claim that restricting the rights of the illiterate is de facto restricting the rights of minorities. I personally see no correlation between intellectual ability and race but, hey, I’m not a liberal.
    Wow, Game, Set, Match!!!

    Ouch!!!
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Believe this...I'll ignore your suggestions about taking a timeout.

    All you have to do to redeem yourself is just list some of the good things that government has done. See if you can without relying on the military. Or is everything they've done for 200 years been a bad thing?
    Easy. I can send a letter to someone for less than a dollar, and they will get it in a day or two. The government insures that there is no restriction of trade between the states, and even built a nifty highway to speed things along. They have set aside some of the most beautiful wilderness, and (until recently) made it accessible to anyone, whether rich or poor.

    And every four years they throw a great party in Washington DC!

    Do you need more?
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