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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #421  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Health Care reform was the top of the Obama campaign. Come on. There's no denying that. To do so would be less than genuine.
    I'm the real deal, and this bill wasn't on the ballot. In fact, we have voted it down in every recent poll. Your argument that we voted for it before it existed is what's not 'genuine'.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #422  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The will of the people was followed. That's what the last election was about. Now that they are getting these things done and if the economy keeps turning, the 2010 election will be far less the blood bath for incumbents you're hoping for.
    How can you sit there and ignore months worth of polls that say otherwise? You're literally pretending that the American Public's Voice is only heard at election time. That's simply not true. Further, it is inaccurate to further the notion that this joke--this mangled mess of a political exercise is what people voted for. They also voted for transparency, bipartisanship, and PRAGMATISM, but they didn't get that either.

    Well, you are right--I'm hoping for a major bloodbath, because violating the will of the American People demands it.

    Now of course making predictions is...well, guessing. If history holds true, even without this, Democrats are going to lose seats--that's a pretty reliable pattern (although not absolute). Then I think, next it would be more important to look at the economy. Now, I'm sure that the Obama spin machine is going to keep pushing the "saved or created" line, which is drivel, but again, if the pattern holds...it is almost too late already with the economy. However, things move faster than in the past, so one could argue that the public sentiment might cement later as well--no way of knowing. Take the example of Bush (41). That recession--which was very mild was hung around his neck...what was it--at least 18 months later. People tend to have a Long memory for economic problems.

    I suppose it is POSSIBLE to have a major turn around, but that doesn't seem very likely. Unemployment is not likely to dip significantly, and accurate or not--that will get blamed on the President (like it always does). They made that bed and will have to lie in it.

    Then consider that many of the districts where McCain won are vulnerable seats for Democrats, and you start approaching a potential big win for Republicans.

    Now, if Democrat ethical scandals got anywhere near the media coverage that Republican ones do, that would also shift things, but that isn't likely to happen.

    My point is--that's BEFORE you consider the impact of this health care business. If Democrats are looking to this for a "winning issue" I think they've got a tough road to hoe, but again--the spin machine is as powerful as it gets with Obama. I'd never underestimate it myself.

    Bottom line...A Republican majority in the Senate would be quite difficult and if they did it would be a small majority. I doubt that will happen. Today I'd say they might be looking at 46-47 seats. The House--there is likely to be some significant movement. Today I'd believe a prediction of 30 seats, which would keep Pelosi as Speaker, but considering her unpopularity, it is certainly possible to lose more. 40? Possible.

    So, I'd give Republicans about a 35% chance to retake the Senate, and perhaps 55% to Retake the House. That's my prediction for today.

    KAM
  3. #423  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    How can you sit there and ignore months worth of polls that say otherwise? You're literally pretending that the American Public's Voice is only heard at election time. That's simply not true. Further, it is inaccurate to further the notion that this joke--this mangled mess of a political exercise is what people voted for. They also voted for transparency, bipartisanship, and PRAGMATISM, but they didn't get that either.

    Well, you are right--I'm hoping for a major bloodbath, because violating the will of the American People demands it.

    Now of course making predictions is...well, guessing. If history holds true, even without this, Democrats are going to lose seats--that's a pretty reliable pattern (although not absolute). Then I think, next it would be more important to look at the economy. Now, I'm sure that the Obama spin machine is going to keep pushing the "saved or created" line, which is drivel, but again, if the pattern holds...it is almost too late already with the economy. However, things move faster than in the past, so one could argue that the public sentiment might cement later as well--no way of knowing. Take the example of Bush (41). That recession--which was very mild was hung around his neck...what was it--at least 18 months later. People tend to have a Long memory for economic problems.

    I suppose it is POSSIBLE to have a major turn around, but that doesn't seem very likely. Unemployment is not likely to dip significantly, and accurate or not--that will get blamed on the President (like it always does). They made that bed and will have to lie in it.

    Then consider that many of the districts where McCain won are vulnerable seats for Democrats, and you start approaching a potential big win for Republicans.

    Now, if Democrat ethical scandals got anywhere near the media coverage that Republican ones do, that would also shift things, but that isn't likely to happen.

    My point is--that's BEFORE you consider the impact of this health care business. If Democrats are looking to this for a "winning issue" I think they've got a tough road to hoe, but again--the spin machine is as powerful as it gets with Obama. I'd never underestimate it myself.

    Bottom line...A Republican majority in the Senate would be quite difficult and if they did it would be a small majority. I doubt that will happen. Today I'd say they might be looking at 46-47 seats. The House--there is likely to be some significant movement. Today I'd believe a prediction of 30 seats, which would keep Pelosi as Speaker, but considering her unpopularity, it is certainly possible to lose more. 40? Possible.

    So, I'd give Republicans about a 35% chance to retake the Senate, and perhaps 55% to Retake the House. That's my prediction for today.

    KAM
    because polls dont tell the whole story.

    If I ask "are you happy with the current healthcare bill" and 51% of respondents say no, what you fail to ask is

    1. Is it better than nothing?

    2. Why? Does the healthcare bill do too much or not enough?


    15% of respondents who answer no to that question say its because the current healthcare bill does not go far enough.

    Polls can be made to look however you want. Polls do not dictate policy. Voting does. We voted for democrats who largely ran on universal healthcare. Now we get what they promised us. How is that anything but genuine?
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #424  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Yep. Maybe now we can have a health care system that performs comparably with France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Japan...and yes, even Malta and Singapore. That's the kind of dependency I favor. One that provides necessary health care to those that need it.
    Yes, I'm sure a similar false promise was made when they saddled us with Medicaid as well. I guess you can't learn from history.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Tell me, did you ever consider that fact that your idealized version of a society just might not be workable? You might. Or just point out any country anywhere where such a country exists. That would be a great start. You know, for all us "idiots" that don't buy into your fantasy.
    It isn't really isn't idealized. It's what works when its allowed to work and in fact, for many industries it is in effect today. These industries see better and better products coming out for cheaper and cheaper--the exact OPPOSITE of the manipulated system that you demand we expand. What is evident (and you are in full denial about) is that YOUR version, which we've been suffering under ISN'T working. I'd suggest you consider that, but you don't seem capable of such thinking. You either aren't capable of willing to evaluate the system we do have honestly, and as a result--you support fraud cloaked as "reform."

    A free market system with government protection from Fraud isn't a fantasy--its just something you can't understand or evaluate, because you are a statist (judging by your posts that is) who doesn't comprehend the fundamental principles of our Constitution or system of government.

    KAM
  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #425  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Funny that Medicare recipients are more satisfied with their care, at least in this older study. Guess that's just because of their dependency. Of course, getting money to the providers is much more important than whether patients are satisfied with their care. The fact is our hospital has sued BCBS and a private non-profit HMO for delays in payment. Medicare is much faster. I am not sure about Medicaid.
    Well, I'd hate to stand in the way of a public opinion poll with something as flimsy as fact. I just can't help but feel that it's difficult to be completely satisfied with something one is denied.
  6.    #426  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post

    A free market system with government protection from Fraud isn't a fantasy--its just something you can't understand or evaluate, because you are a statist (judging by your posts that is) who doesn't comprehend the fundamental principles of our Constitution or system of government.

    KAM
    Translation: You and every democrat don't agree with my determination of the fundamental principles of our constitution or system of government". You are ALL wrong. I'm right, because I say so.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #427  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    Polls can be made to look however you want. Polls do not dictate policy. Voting does. We voted for democrats who largely ran on universal healthcare. Now we get what they promised us. How is that anything but genuine?
    Voting in November doesn't dictate policy either. As this "reform" bill proves, political ideology does. You're forwarding the notion that people voted for who they did because of "Universal Healthcare" which you can't prove in any way shape or form.

    Genuine? If this process has been "Genuine" to you, then I truly feel sorry for you.

    I think you'll also learn, if you can look at things objectively, that what the American public gets is RARELY what they are "promised." What they promise is that everything will be great, help everyone and cost less, and what you get is something VERY, VERY different.

    Again--go ahead please tell me how ANY objective measure can call Social Security and Medicare a "total success." As a reminder--even President Obama says that Medicare is full of waste. So, your earlier claim that this like other Democrat welfare programs (by any name) are "total success" is nonsense.

    KAM
  8. #428  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, I'd hate to stand in the way of a public opinion poll with something as flimsy as fact. I just can't help but feel that it's difficult to be completely satisfied with something one is denied.
    If I asked you to believe my "factual" public opinion poll that Rachel Maddow gave, would you agree that isnt your ideal "fact?"

    public opinion polls mean nothing.

    When has a poll dictated anything? There are a thousand polls today, many of which are contradictory.

    Can we talk about the poll that found over 70% of respondents want universal healthcare (public option)? I guess we shouldnt stand in the way of public opinion. That is, unless it differs with what you want.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #429  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Translation: You and every democrat don't agree with my determination of the fundamental principles of our constitution or system of government". You are ALL wrong. I'm right, because I say so.
    No. You simply don't understand this isn't about my opinion--its about what the Constitution is. I know that people like you don't understand that a principle or idea is defined, and it really just something to be mangled to support whatever it is you demand, but not all of us are so intellectually hindered.

    Plus--don't be unfair to those democrats to do understand these things by lumping them all in with you. Also--YOU are the one who cannot see things beyond D vs R. Don't project your failings on me.

    KAM
  10. #430  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post

    Again--go ahead please tell me how ANY objective measure can call Social Security and Medicare a "total success." As a reminder--even President Obama says that Medicare is full of waste. So, your earlier claim that this like other Democrat welfare programs (by any name) are "total success" is nonsense.

    KAM
    Again, President Reagan enacted the largest increase in Social Security spending in its history.

    for you to say that is a democratic idea is disingenuous, as I quickly learning most everything you say is.

    Now, lets talk about Clintons budget that recieved not a single republican vote. How did that end? Ya, you know...a big, fat surplus.
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #431  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    medicare and social security have been around for decades. plenty of time for republicans to try to fix them. But republicans dont have any plans to fix anything, just complaints about how democrats are doing it wrong.
    Yes, when those attempts are made Democrats engage in the exact sort of "fear mongering" that they decry today. These things are designed to be very difficult to reform or fix, because they are all about dependency. It is hard to make someone NOT dependent once they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    Social security was not enacted with the intentions of what it is now. You can thank President Reagan for enacting the largest expansion to it in its history. Whose to blame there?
    Well, government is to blame--as usual. The point is, these are not successful programs when you consider economics at all. They are massive detriments getting ripe to burst.

    KAM
  12. groovy's Avatar
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    #432  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    If I asked you to believe my "factual" public opinion poll that Rachel Maddow gave, would you agree that isnt your ideal "fact?"

    public opinion polls mean nothing.

    When has a poll dictated anything? There are a thousand polls today, many of which are contradictory.

    Can we talk about the poll that found over 70% of respondents want universal healthcare (public option)? I guess we shouldnt stand in the way of public opinion. That is, unless it differs with what you want.
    I'm not sure you got the intent of my post.
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #433  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    Again, President Reagan enacted the largest increase in Social Security spending in its history.

    for you to say that is a democratic idea is disingenuous, as I quickly learning most everything you say is.
    Actually YOU said these "total successes" were Democrat ideas. But I see how it goes--Success=Democrat, Failure=Republican. Oh yes, totally objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    Now, lets talk about Clintons budget that recieved not a single republican vote. How did that end? Ya, you know...a big, fat surplus.
    Yes, I know you keep on spouting that half truth, which I already addressed.
    Clinton only achieved a balanced budget with a Republican Controlled Congress, but of course, you ignore this. Other factors such as an internet boom inflated these numbers (artificially) and then deflated them just as quick, but, of course you ignore that too.

    Your sound-bite level analysis really isn't very accurate.

    KAM
  14. #434  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post

    Well, government is to blame--as usual. The point is, these are not successful programs when you consider economics at all. They are massive detriments getting ripe to burst.

    KAM
    So who are you blaming?
  15. #435  
    edit...double post
  16. #436  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually YOU said these "total successes" were Democrat ideas. But I see how it goes--Success=Democrat, Failure=Republican. Oh yes, totally objective.



    Yes, I know you keep on spouting that half truth, which I already addressed.
    Clinton only achieved a balanced budget with a Republican Controlled Congress, but of course, you ignore this. Other factors such as an internet boom inflated these numbers (artificially) and then deflated them just as quick, but, of course you ignore that too.

    Your sound-bite level analysis really isn't very accurate.

    KAM
    I never said these were the democratic successes I was referring to....You self-servingly assumed this.
  17. #437  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I'm the real deal, and this bill wasn't on the ballot. In fact, we have voted it down in every recent poll. Your argument that we voted for it before it existed is what's not 'genuine'.
    The major points in that bill most certainly were the campaign. You're trying to be clever with your wording "this bill wasn't on the ballot".

    Also, the republican talking point of every poll shows people against it blah blah blah. You know darned well that when the same person is asked if they favor the individual points of the bill they overwhelmingly support it.
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #438  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Health Care reform was the top of the Obama campaign. Come on. There's no denying that. To do so would be less than genuine.
    To pretend that a vote for Obama was about THIS plan--this mangled piece of political crap is what's not genuine.

    KAM
  19.    #439  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, I'd hate to stand in the way of a public opinion poll with something as flimsy as fact. I just can't help but feel that it's difficult to be completely satisfied with something one is denied.
    There's a difference between Medicare denying payment for something that isn't necessary (which might upset the provider but not necessarily the patient), and patient satisfaction with their insurance providers. Medicare denial rates are actually almost identical to Aetna's but higher than most other private companies. Additionally, it turns out that Medicare compares very favorably if not better than private insurers with regard to delays in payment, transparency, and does significantly better in terms of paying what was contracted for. This last little bit probably more than makes up for a higher denial rate, since you actually get what you think you will get from Medicare.

    If you want to look through lots of specific data about this, here it is. Have at it. You want fact? Here 'tis.

    http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upl...reportcard.pdf

    After looking through all of it, then see if you really think there's much difference between having Medicare as a provider or Aetna. Based on my experience, I'll take Medicare.
    Last edited by davidra; 03/22/2010 at 01:15 PM.
  20. #440  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    theres no point trying to suede anyone on healthcare anymore. These sheeple have nothing to bring to the table but hatred, so lets just leave them to believe what they will.

    If they think they can get a supermajority (let alone any majority) to repeal these bills, I think we all know that is a laughable thought. This will turn out like every other major democratic bill. The republicans will whine all day, not cast a single vote, the bill will be a total success, then the republicans will just act like they were all for it.

    I'll let my vote speak for itself come november, and hopefully the rest of the healthcare-suporting public will as well. I'm gonna let my democratic representatives know that I stand behind them for standing up for me.

    And I'll also be letting the republicans know what I think of their divisive tone. I've seen what republicans stand up for...big industry lobbyists. I'll never forget that.
    see..where in that post do I refer to anything about social security or medicare?

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