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  1. #401  
    I'm sure glad you guys are attacking the argument and not each other.
  2. #402  
    theres no point trying to suede anyone on healthcare anymore. These sheeple have nothing to bring to the table but hatred, so lets just leave them to believe what they will.

    If they think they can get a supermajority (let alone any majority) to repeal these bills, I think we all know that is a laughable thought. This will turn out like every other major democratic bill. The republicans will whine all day, not cast a single vote, the bill will be a total success, then the republicans will just act like they were all for it.

    I'll let my vote speak for itself come november, and hopefully the rest of the healthcare-suporting public will as well. I'm gonna let my democratic representatives know that I stand behind them for standing up for me.

    And I'll also be letting the republicans know what I think of their divisive tone. I've seen what republicans stand up for...big industry lobbyists. I'll never forget that.
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #403  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Given how horrible the government is, I'm really surprised you're still willing to live here. And the freeloading population, including everyone over the age of 65...but don't let reality get in the way of your idyllic free-market fantasies. Maybe you should consider secession, or moving to Texas, where the appropriate sensibilities for you seem to prevail. Ride 'em, cowboy.
    I never called anyone a freeloader--just another example of your willingness to lie.

    I love this country, but have certain problems with the Government--which is my right as a Citizen. I know you think you can only dislike the Government if a Republican is in charge, but others are capable of understanding such issues and principles. Unfortunately, you are clearly not one of them.

    Why would I want to want to break away from the United States--YOU are ones who hate what the United States actually is--the enemies of the Constitution, and who consider it a quaint relic to ignore. I actually value what the United States is and can be--if only Progressives are stopped from turning it into just another welfare state failure.

    You and those like you are doing a great job so far. Trillions wasted and Trillions of unfunded liabilities--all the while IGNORING free market principles.

    I know you aren't able to understand such things, but the NON-FREE MARKET system is what has led to costs being what they are. Your favored manipulated system--which you advocate expanding is what has resulted in costs so high that people can't afford it. Yet you are so ignorant of reality that you deny that it is even a problem, and mindlessly demand more of the same.

    You're part of the problem--the problem that STILL isn't being even addressed let alone solved by this joke of "reform."

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #404  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    theres no point trying to suede anyone on healthcare anymore. These sheeple have nothing to bring to the table but hatred, so lets just leave them to believe what they will.

    If they think they can get a supermajority (let alone any majority) to repeal these bills, I think we all know that is a laughable thought. This will turn out like every other major democratic bill. The republicans will whine all day, not cast a single vote, the bill will be a total success, then the republicans will just act like they were all for it.

    I'll let my vote speak for itself come november, and hopefully the rest of the healthcare-suporting public will as well. I'm gonna let my democratic representatives know that I stand behind them for standing up for me.

    And I'll also be letting the republicans know what I think of their divisive tone. I've seen what republicans stand up for...big industry lobbyists. I'll never forget that.
    Yes, how are those "total Success" programs Medicare, and Social Security doing? Oh right--they are on course for insolvency. Only a leftist could count that as "total success."

    Sheer delusion.

    KAM
  5. #405  
    Quote Originally Posted by sublimobile View Post
    theres no point trying to suede anyone on healthcare anymore. These sheeple have nothing to bring to the table but hatred, so lets just leave them to believe what they will.

    If they think they can get a supermajority (let alone any majority) to repeal these bills, I think we all know that is a laughable thought. This will turn out like every other major democratic bill. The republicans will whine all day, not cast a single vote, the bill will be a total success, then the republicans will just act like they were all for it.

    I'll let my vote speak for itself come november, and hopefully the rest of the healthcare-suporting public will as well. I'm gonna let my democratic representatives know that I stand behind them for standing up for me.

    And I'll also be letting the republicans know what I think of their divisive tone. I've seen what republicans stand up for...big industry lobbyists. I'll never forget that.
    Two thoughts...

    First, I don't think anyone has tried to 'suede' people with opposite views on the left or right

    Second, I think the reason for all the passion around this topic is the realization that there ISN'T much chance that this can be repealed, even if the Republicans DID get a super-majority in November because of voter backlash. Think about what they (didn't) accomplish the last 2 times they controlled both houses, and even when they also controlled the white house. The are just as incompetent as they are today. Come to think of it, it's mostly the same career politicians over the last several decades. The smart ones get out and go home, like JC Watts did.

    By the way, a primary driver in getting this thing passed now is that voters will tend to forget their anger if enough time passes, especially since the tax increases won't start to really have an impact until next year. And it will be 4 years before any real insurance benefit will show up, so they have time to build another massive federal organization to run this thing...

    I think a lot of those standing for re-election will lose their elections, maybe even quite a few. But, the water has passed under the dam and can't be recovered. That's what is so ominous about this sort of "change". Just like income tax was originally ruled unconstitutional (until the 16th amendment was passed) the creation of other entitlements are impossible to reverse. Once they start, it is virtually impossible to stop them, or even control them...

    So, don't confuse the price congress may pay in November with anyone suggesting this thing can be reversed. And people will quickly become accustomed to this as the status quo, so it won't occurred to future generations that the huge weight they are feeling on their backs could actually have been avoided. Much like you don't think twice about the huge amount of money that comes out of your pay check to support the biggest Ponzi schemes in history - social security and medicare.

    I'm not saying those programs weren't well intended or that we shouldn't he helping people, so save the flames.

    But, the structure of those programs is exactly how a Ponzi scheme works. Those that come along later pay back those that joined earlier, and the cycle repeats.

    Study history on what has happened to party's that attempted to use their super-majority in the manner we saw this weekend, and you will see that they aren't around any more. However, newer parties were never able to undo what was done by predecessors.

    I think that is what people mean when get angry and say "wait until November".

    Republicans got what they deserves in the last election. Democrats will probably suffer the same fate in the next one. The taxpayers get the bill for the stupidity of each side, and China earns interest on the dollars we borrow from them.

    Ahhhh. You have to love national politics!
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/22/2010 at 11:31 AM.
  6.    #406  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yes, how are those "total Success" programs Medicare, and Social Security doing? Oh right--they are on course for insolvency. Only a leftist could count that as "total success."

    Sheer delusion.

    KAM
    No...the delusion is trying to determine what "success" is based on a singular idyllic view of the constitution and not recognizing that when massive numbers of people are satisfied with a program, that is one major determinant of whether or not it is successful. All those people just don't happen to agree with your skewed definition of how to determine "success". Oh, and with regard to the insolvency? That will be cleaned up...and we just need to pony up a bit more. And then you know what? You're right. The program will be highly valued and supported by the majority of the population, and they still won't agree with your definition. That's what happens when you lose elections. Time before this we got a wasteful unnecessary war. At least now we keep the money and the services in our own borders, and we are directing it toward our own citizens. Sounds like a winner to me.
  7. #407  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yes, how are those "total Success" programs Medicare, and Social Security doing? Oh right--they are on course for insolvency. Only a leftist could count that as "total success."

    Sheer delusion.

    KAM
    The real problem with those programs, as well as welfare, is that they taught people to rely on the government instead of themselves. I'm all for helping people, but when you tell people they will be taken care of, they rightfully believe it and it becomes the new norm.

    Somehow I think I will be better off if I plan my finances so that I can assume that I WONT' be taken care of. If social security and Welfare are still in place, then I'll be that much ahead of the game. If not, I won't have to worry.
  8. groovy's Avatar
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    #408  
    I know its been said before but...

    Insurers ranked on payment records - The Boston Globe

    The state government Medicaid plan known as MassHealth, which covers low-income patients who can't afford insurance, was the slowest payer of health claims to Massachusetts doctors last year, averaging 56 days, and denied the highest share of claims, 23.8 percent, according to rankings set to be released today.


    According to a 2008 AMA report card, Medicare has the highest rate of denials among top insurers.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #409  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    No...the delusion is trying to determine what "success" is based on a singular idyllic view of the constitution and not recognizing that when massive numbers of people are satisfied with a program, that is one major determinant of whether or not it is successful.
    But polls of dependent people IS? Yeah, sure, that's brilliant reasoning. No Genius that "idllyic view" is called economic reality. Of course, you've admitted many times that you neither know or care anything about it--which explains why you advocate such idiocy.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    All those people just don't happen to agree with your skewed definition of how to determine "success". Oh, and with regard to the insolvency? That will be cleaned up...and we just need to pony up a bit more.
    See, this demonstrates how ignorant you are. Do you have ANY idea how much every man, woman and child would have to "pony up" in order to make it solvent? ANY idea? I'll give you a hint--it is WAY more than my net worth, WAY more.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    And then you know what? You're right. The program will be highly valued and supported by the majority of the population, and they still won't agree with your definition.
    Well, see--that's yet another lie on your part. It isn't MY definition. It's an economic reality--which I know you can't process in any rational fashion, but that doesn't change the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    That's what happens when you lose elections. Time before this we got a wasteful unnecessary war. At least now we keep the money and the services in our own borders, and we are directing it toward our own citizens. Sounds like a winner to me.
    I wasn't aware that as a Citizen I "lose elections." Of course, that's the way someone like you would see it. And yes of course--when you "lose" an election, you whine and cry and engage in deranged rantings about the Former President at every turn. I at least Respect President Obama as a person, and as my President, even if I disagree with him on many issues--more than I can say for people like you.

    But again--you flee from the actual point. We already ARE spending plenty of money to cover ALL of these poor people to a level as good or better than I have. I know you can't accept this, but I'm a middle class guy, just trying to get by like everyone else. We've wasted billions and billions, and this won't change that, because the actual issues are ignored (thanks to people who follow their ideology instead of practical solutions).

    You're an amazing hypocrite--you said this "sucked" but take it anyway--why? Because it is a political necessity. You've made it very clear what your priorities are, despite your protestations to the contrary.

    Go treat some patients, and save telling me how much you "care" about people.

    KAM
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #410  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    The real problem with those programs, as well as welfare, is that they taught people to rely on the government instead of themselves. I'm all for helping people, but when you tell people they will be taken care of, they rightfully believe it and it becomes the new norm.

    Somehow I think I will be better off if I plan my finances so that I can assume that I WONT' be taken care of. If social security and Welfare are still in place, then I'll be that much ahead of the game. If not, I won't have to worry.
    Absolutely. These programs CREATE dependency. I happen to think that this dependency benefits certain politicians. Why would someone vote AGAINST the person who is their lifeline? The politicians know this very well, which is exactly why the Democrats are so happy today. They've just rammed a whole new level of dependency down the throat of America.

    KAM
  11.    #411  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Absolutely. These programs CREATE dependency. I happen to think that this dependency benefits certain politicians. Why would someone vote AGAINST the person who is their lifeline? The politicians know this very well, which is exactly why the Democrats are so happy today. They've just rammed a whole new level of dependency down the throat of America.

    KAM
    Yep. Maybe now we can have a health care system that performs comparably with France, Italy, Germany, Spain, Japan...and yes, even Malta and Singapore. That's the kind of dependency I favor. One that provides necessary health care to those that need it.

    Tell me, did you ever consider that fact that your idealized version of a society just might not be workable? You might. Or just point out any country anywhere where such a country exists. That would be a great start. You know, for all us "idiots" that don't buy into your fantasy.
  12. #412  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yes, I have to admit that I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

    I think this is paralleling the Clinton years 1 and 2, but not like you might think. I think that Clinton's party because of what they did--not what they didn't do, and I think this will go the same direction.

    Hard to say if the control of either the House or Senate will flip, but I predict that things will go in the Republican's direction.

    You can't defy the will of the American people so blatantly, while they are watching and expect a good reaction.

    KAM
    The will of the people was followed. That's what the last election was about. Now that they are getting these things done and if the economy keeps turning, the 2010 election will be far less the blood bath for incumbents you're hoping for.
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    #413  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The will of the people was followed. That's what the last election was about. Now that they are getting these things done and if the economy keeps turning, the 2010 election will be far less the blood bath for incumbents you're hoping for.
    No, the election was about voting in someone who was not Bush. This bill wasn't on the ballot. Change doesn't mean whatever goes, as long as it's different.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14. groovy's Avatar
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    #414  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    The will of the people was followed. That's what the last election was about. Now that they are getting these things done and if the economy keeps turning, the 2010 election will be far less the blood bath for incumbents you're hoping for.
    CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - CNN poll: Americans don’t like health care bill - Blogs from CNN.com
    Poll: Are you for or against the new health care legislation? | news-press.com | The News-Press
    CBS Poll: Huge Health Care Bill Has Public Unsure - WWL - AM870 | FM105.3 | News | Talk | Sports

    Not sure which will of the people was being followed. It was certainly being followed by the will of some but not by the will of the majority. Oh, and we all know the last election was a fluke. It's been proven every election since and will be proven once again in November, IMHO of course.
  15. #415  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    According to a 2008 AMA report card, Medicare has the highest rate of denials among top insurers.
    Perhaps that's to fight all that medicare fraud the conservatives are always waving around?
  16. #416  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No, the election was about voting in someone who was not Bush. This bill wasn't on the ballot. Change doesn't mean whatever goes, as long as it's different.
    Health Care reform was the top of the Obama campaign. Come on. There's no denying that. To do so would be less than genuine.
  17. groovy's Avatar
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    #417  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Perhaps that's to fight all that medicare fraud the conservatives are always waving around?
    Or not. I'd find it highly suspect that the great motivation of greed private insurers are always being accused of is not as great as Medicare's motivation to fight fraud.
  18. #418  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Yes, how are those "total Success" programs Medicare, and Social Security doing? Oh right--they are on course for insolvency. Only a leftist could count that as "total success."

    Sheer delusion.

    KAM
    medicare and social security have been around for decades. plenty of time for republicans to try to fix them. But republicans dont have any plans to fix anything, just complaints about how democrats are doing it wrong.

    Social security was not enacted with the intentions of what it is now. You can thank President Reagan for enacting the largest expansion to it in its history. Whose to blame there?
  19. #419  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    No, the election was about voting in someone who was not Bush. This bill wasn't on the ballot. Change doesn't mean whatever goes, as long as it's different.
    If I'm not mistaken, McCain isnt George Bush

    Besides, even if it is the case, does that make it better. Bush (republican in case you forgot), ran up the largest deficit in our history, and we're only now finally digging ourselves out of it.

    Thats the republican that keeps on giving. Even when he's been out of office for over a year, his policies are still beating down the economy. Wow, if only we could get another republicanto finish the job. Send us right into a depression.
  20.    #420  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I know its been said before but...



    According to a 2008 AMA report card, Medicare has the highest rate of denials among top insurers.
    Funny that Medicare recipients are more satisfied with their care, at least in this older study. Guess that's just because of their dependency. Of course, getting money to the providers is much more important than whether patients are satisfied with their care. The fact is our hospital has sued BCBS and a private non-profit HMO for delays in payment. Medicare is much faster. I am not sure about Medicaid.

    Many policymakers have called for the remodeling of Medicare to more closely resemble private insurance, which is often assumed to work better than public programs do. However, evidence from this 2001 survey demonstrates that Medicare beneficiaries are generally more satisfied with their health care than are persons under age sixty-five who are covered by private insurance. Medicare beneficiaries report fewer problems getting access to care, greater confidence about their access, and fewer instances of financial hardship as a result of medical bills. Making the program more like private insurance runs the risk of undermining a program that is working well from the perspective of beneficiaries.
    This survey’s findings that Medicare beneficiaries are generally more satisfied with their health care than the privately insured are, are more confident about their access to care, and for key services experience fewer access problems challenge the accepted notion that Medicare is “out of date” and should “catch up” with the private insurance model. Medicare beneficiaries have less comprehensive benefits and often pay higher out-of-pocket premiums than those covered by employer plans pay, and their Part B premiums exceed premiums paid directly by employees for employer coverage.12 Nevertheless, elderly Medicare beneficiaries are less likely than persons with employer coverage are to report negative insurance experiences or problems paying medical bills. This may reflect greater denial of claims under employer coverage or the lower continuity of coverage under employer plans that periodically leaves some persons without insurance.

    Medicare beneficiaries’ more positive access experiences and ratings of their care indicate that their coverage is working relatively well in providing choice of services and access to needed care. This may be due to the fact that most Medicare beneficiaries are covered under the traditional fee-for-service program, while adults with employer coverage are more likely to be enrolled in managed care plans. As a result, Medicare beneficiaries have a wider choice of physicians and fewer restrictions on care, such as the prior approval for specialist services required by many managed care plans.

    In markets with M+C options, Medicare beneficiaries might also have more plan choices than persons with employer coverage have. Only about 41 percent of employees have a choice of employer-sponsored insurance plans, and fee-for-service options are not common.13 A number of studies have found that consumer choice leads to higher satisfaction with coverage.14
    Medicare Versus Private Insurance: Rhetoric And Reality -- Davis et al., 10.1377/hlthaff.w2.311 -- Health Affairs

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