Page 20 of 29 FirstFirst ... 101516171819202122232425 ... LastLast
Results 381 to 400 of 567
  1. #381  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    My response is quite simple. Your solutions did nothing to change the major problems in the current system. You can say they are solutions, but they're not. Again, you avoid the details. And by the way, I have always said all citizens should be entitled to access to adequate health care...not "everyone".

    In fact, I have never claimed any expertise in any of those fields except for health care, both the way it's provided (because I have been a provider for many many years) and health care policy (because I have been trained in it...as well as statistics and epidemiology as part of my "other" degree). Aspects of legality that have to do with health care I am reasonably familiar with, but I defy you to find anywhere I claim any particular knowledge about the law, or accounting (that would be my wife, who is a CPA). I consider myself a historian about health care, but not much else, and as I stated in the previous response, I am not a spreadsheet person. But I do know health care, I know how doctors practice, I know about health care economics, I know what it means to run and finance a practice, and I know what it means to have the responsibility of taking care of patients who have no insurance and are facing bankruptcy and death through no fault of their own. I have no doubt you know many things I don't. I also have no doubt I know more about these things than you do, unless you want to enlighten me.
    How dare you say I provided no details? Which part of BUY THEM SHINY NEW 20-year INSURANCE POLICIES wasn't clear to you? And all that math to illustrate that it would provide coverage for twice as long, without additional govt expansion. All those numbers? But not details? Dude, you have exhausted me with your circular arguments and repetition.

    Since you are in the medical field, you more than anyone know that doctors REGULARLY perform tests and prescribe meds beyond what is needed for the sole purpose of covering their butts to avoid law suits. There is nothing in what you've said that proves that socializing healthcare will stop that nonsense.

    In reading the CBO report, do you realize that they are counting on fully TWO THIRDS of the "savings" coming from actual REDUCTIONS in the cost of care? Do you realize that means they think they can drive TWO THIRDS of the cost out of health care? On what planet did you EVER see a government program result in ANYTHING getting less expensive?

    They already control almost 48% of the system. If Govt control was the answer, then why has the "crisis" gotten worse? Well, it's because of automatic increases for inflation, fraud, waste, and a general talent for spending other people's money. And how do you handle the fact that Congress is exempt from all of this and will continue to enjoy living in their own little world?

    And how do you justify that fully 20% of those getting healthcare are not even Americans? This is the stuff that gets people so upset over this topic, and your inability to actually listen or acknowledge gets really frustrating. You must drive your wife crazy if you just blow through anything she says and just keep repeating yourself.

    And any attempt to tell me that Medicare, Medicaid, or Social Security are successful... is just insane. Because that presupposes that there would be no other solution possible that could have done more or costs less. I would argue that both are possible with less government, not more.

    I just don't have the energy to engage your mental gymnastics. Here is an interesting article about how the 1967 estimates for the cost of Medicare would be in 1990. And the actual cost in 1990 was TEN TIMES that estimate. It further discusses how $371billion in healthcare spending isn't counted in the CBO estimate. If you have a calculator handy, that's ONE THIRD of the estimated cost. That means that they are reducing the estimated cost by 1/3 by simply not counting healthcare payments...

    CBO’s score: Cloudy with a chance of bankruptcy | Analysis & Opinion | Reuters

    I'm through trying to prove to you that options are possible, that even I could come up with something, and that 4-function math can be accomplished by someone other than the CBO. You don't like what I've taken so much time to articulate, so you just dismiss it. That level of disrespect and elitism is exactly what we get from congress. It is just a shame that my taxes will go up along with yours, given that I am so opposed to spending my taxes this way. Once we turn this corner, there is no turning back. Remember that the original income tax law passed by a single vote. And now we have the IRS and a horrible tax code to thank for that. Do you realize that the average american spends about 40 hours per year working on their taxes?

    I balance my budget every year. Congress doesn't.

    I've given you examples (examples only) to prove there are options. I CLEARLY stated I didn't thing they were good ideas. The point is that if I can come up with something in a few hours with a calculator, congress and their thousands of researchers could certainly come up with something,

    Don't bother to respond. Your responses are always tangential to whatever I write. I can't waste more time on you, because I have to work more to pay the additional taxes that will happen when congress starts taxing my employer health benefits... which they are planning to do.
  2. #382  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm curious. " ...other politically motivated disaster orchestrated by morons" would include what? Medicare? Social Security? Civil Rights? Medicare drug benefit? Just curious about all the morons in the US who love and support these programs.

    By the way....you're sputtering again. You do that when things don't go your way, I've noticed. And that seems to happen quite a bit these days.
    Yes, I count them all as disasters. I will continue to assert that we could be providing better services at less cost. No, I won't take the time to describe any thoughts on how, because you will ignore them anyway. I will only say that free enterprise and the resulting technology drives down costs and fosters innovation. That's proven by that amazing smartphone you have. When telecom was a govt approved monopoly, we paid more and got less. So no, I will not develop an alternative for you. You would ignore it like you did on the health care front.

    Let me just say that what Bernie Madoff did was a Ponzi scheme that appalled everybody - including you and me. When the federal government does it, we call it Social Security. Each generation comes in to pay for the generation before them. They don't get a payoff until they are older and the next generation (hopefully) pays for them, and so it goes.

    That is a Ponzi scheme. And a Ponzi scheme always collapses eventually as the law of large numbers becomes overwhelming.

    So don't tell us those programs are successful. They are part of the problem...

    And congress knows it. That's why they have run up almost as much debt in the last year as Bush did in 8 years (and don't tell me it's because of his mess. Regan inherited a similar mess, and he solved it by spending LESS, not more.) You can't spend your way to prosperity.

    Congress knows exactly what they are doing. Why else would Congressional Democrats already be moving preemptively to prepare for higher costs by raising the debt ceiling to $14 trillion—a 55 percent increase from where it was when they took control of Congress in 2007?

    Did you catch that? they are planning for a 55% increase in DEBT! If you and your spouse had to take a big cut in pay, would you respond by borrowing 50% more? Not if you want to avoid bankruptcy.

    I hope I'm wrong. I have demonstrated I can admit when I've made a mistake. You have demonstrated that you would never do that. You can't even acknowledge when your demands are met.
  3. #383  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're missing the point of the conversation. It was a discussion about what "rights" we are provided for in the constitution,and that is something wasn't clearly identified as a right, then we shouldn't expect to be provided it. All I stated was that nowhere in the constitution are we guaranteed a right to education, but that we as a society deemed it important for our individual children that they be provided with an education so they could be successful. The argument was made that that "right" is provided by the states, and I was just making the point that that is not the case exclusively. I was not suggesting that health care be provided using the same mechanism at all. In fact, I think health care should be the sole responsibility of the feds to ensure consistent health care that will not bankrupt the states based on their variability in terms of tax income. Medicare works better than Medicaid, which is the closest delivery system analogous to the education system. But that's my opinion.

    Health care does not have to be mentioned in the constitution as a right in order for our country to provide it. The elderly and disabled have been provided it since 1964.
    The point WASN'T that we shouldn't be providing healthcare. The point was that congress couldn't create a NEW right without amending the constitution. Your selective hearing must drive your spouse crazy.
  4. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #384  
    Guys, you're either going to get off each others' backs and back onto the issue or this thread is going away too. Your choice.
  5. #385  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    By the way, for those who wondered about the identity of the Parkinson's Disease patient:
    No one has suggested that we shouldn't help this man, and others like him - even though you will say we did. The point is that the system buildt to help him is providing too little, and costing way too much.

    He is being exploited for political gain, and you are simply trying to play on emotions to impose your will on those that object.
  6. #386  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm pretty sure you're missing the point of the conversation.
    That may be.
    It was a discussion about what "rights" we are provided for in the constitution,and that is something wasn't clearly identified as a right, then we shouldn't expect to be provided it.
    That's definitely not what I drew from the conversation as a whole. The part of the conversation that I was participating in was more along the lines of the Constitution not providing rights, but rather providing the Federal Government with certain powers.
    All I stated was that nowhere in the constitution are we guaranteed a right to education, but that we as a society deemed it important for our individual children that they be provided with an education so they could be successful.
    AAMOF, case law explicitly states that there is no right to an education, but only that when it is provided by a state that it must be provided equally. The Department of Education has certain programs which attempt to balance that out.
    The argument was made that that "right" is provided by the states, and I was just making the point that that is not the case exclusively.
    That might be why I was asking about what ED actually does. It's not like the Federal Government is providing all the money that's spent at schools.
    I was not suggesting that health care be provided using the same mechanism at all. In fact, I think health care should be the sole responsibility of the feds to ensure consistent health care that will not bankrupt the states based on their variability in terms of tax income.
    How will health care bankrupt a state if the state administers it where it won't if the feds administer it?
    Medicare works better than Medicaid, which is the closest delivery system analogous to the education system. But that's my opinion.
    Neither is really analogous. That was my point. ED does not really provide an education to our children.
    Health care does not have to be mentioned in the constitution as a right in order for our country to provide it. The elderly and disabled have been provided it since 1964.
    Nothing has to be mentioned in the Constitution for the country to provide it. Whether it is being provided within the Constitutional powers is a completely different matter. That's not really a matter that Congress decides, though.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  7. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #387  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    And the classiness of the Tea Party protests continue: Protests get Ugly, Racist

    Why is it that people claim that race and hate are a large factor with the Tea Party?

    Jeebus!

    African-American Congressman John Lewis (D-GA), a protege of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who helped organize the March on Washington, went to the House floor today to tell Majority Whip Jim Clyburn (D-SC) that a Tea Party protester called him a "n-----."
    And then the hate continues:

    Another Democratic source confirms to NBC News that openly gay Congressman Barney Frank (D-MA) was called a "f--" by somebody in the Tea Party crowd.
    And finally assault:

    Rep. Emanaul Cleaver (D-MO), another African-American member, was apparently spit on by a Tea Party protester.
    Disgusting behavior.

    I agree that spitting and name calling, if they actually happened, are bad behaviors. I'm just not sure what it proves. I'd ask you this: do you think this behavior is representative of the Tea Party as a whole? If so, I'd ask for proof besides anecdotal evidence or hearsay. If not, I'd ask what the point is in posting such stories.
  8. #388  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Guys, you're either going to get off each others' backs and back onto the issue or this thread is going away too. Your choice.
    I think it needs to go away.
  9. #389  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    BIGGY??

    marshall and 211 years? Can you explain the math in that?

    maybe it's been recalculated based on daylight savings or adjuted for inflation?

    biggy, please explain that...
    My bad. John Marshall was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court 209 years ago, not 211. It was early morning when I wrote that.

    Imma see my way back to the dev forums.
  10. #390  
    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    My bad. John Marshall was the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court 209 years ago, not 211. It was early morning when I wrote that.

    Imma see my way back to the dev forums.
    meh, what's a couple of years among friends? can you believe I actually checked? weeee!
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #391  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    You left out excessive vacuous verbosity and absence of compassion. Oh...and a lack of basic understanding of the health care system. Don't want to shortchange either one of you.
    That's an interesting statement coming from the Doctor that demonstrates a total ignorance of how HSAs work.

    Absence of Compassion...yes, that's what a liar like you uses as his excuse to attack people that disagree with your leftist drivel. You claim to be "compassionate" but time after time, you've demonstrated your goal is simple, abject political ideology. You wrap, all your garbage up in the cloak of "compassion" and hide behind "expertise" but we see that all falls away when pressed, and you have nothing more than "but I care." Its very clear that you're just another misguided leftist ideologue, and you will continue to help harm people with your "compassion." You support the PROBLEM, and you're too damned arrogant to even realize it.

    You don't care about anything, except supporting this fraud "solution", because that's all your political bias will allow you to understand.

    I can only pray that I never have someone like you in my real life deciding the health of me or my family.

    KAM
  12. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #392  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    roflmsao.. you are a hoot.... lololol gonna take your ball an bat an go home now..lolol
    No, but I am going to redouble my efforts to ignore incoherent posters.

    KAM
  13. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #393  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I'm curious. " ...other politically motivated disaster orchestrated by morons" would include what? Medicare? Social Security? Civil Rights? Medicare drug benefit? Just curious about all the morons in the US who love and support these programs.

    By the way....you're sputtering again. You do that when things don't go your way, I've noticed. And that seems to happen quite a bit these days.
    Sputtering, yes, and you continue to run your mouth about your fantasies apparently. Are you literally insane, that you cannot understand that you can neither hear nor see me? Oh right--you don't actually consider reality, in any thing apparently.

    Yes, genius--people tend to love things that are "free" as long as they can be fooled into thinking that they are, which of course is what dishonest people that you support are dedicated to doing. Don't delude yourself into thinking it goes beyond that.

    But you really should not be thinking about me--you've got some celebrating to do I think. These insurance companies you hate so much have just been forced onto the Crony Capitalist train. As long as they play ball (and they will), this government orchestrated manipulation will continue, and people will continue to suffer under the system you demand. Congratulations.

    KAM
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #394  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I find myself wondering why David Frum, conservative author, confirmed that (a) the Republican position was based upon creating "Obama's Waterloo", (b) the plan itself reflects many Republican ideas, and is by no means radical, (c) the Republican Party has been co-opted by the fringe of the party, (d) the positive outcomes of this bill make it impossible to repeal, and (e) the Waterloo will be the Republicans.

    Required Reading: Waterloo | FrumForum
    Come back in November and we will see.

    KAM
  15. #395  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Come back in November and we will see.

    KAM
    Indeed! We will!

  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #396  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    You should know better than that. I ask questions that I sometimes already know the answer to in an effort to get someone to think about what they're saying. KAM would have posted a page worth of his position. We're quite different in that respect.
    That's true, but it is borne out of a sincere presupposition that the people I am talking to have an interest in understanding a different point of view, so I tend to try and say things in different ways so they might understand. Unfortunately, that is not the case, and I am in fact wasting my time in many cases.

    I fully admit, I can tend to get wordy, but it is based on a sincere desire to have a meaningful exchange. I will admit that apparently I have little success at that, but then again, conversations require two willing participants.

    KAM
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #397  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Indeed! We will!

    Yes, I have to admit that I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

    I think this is paralleling the Clinton years 1 and 2, but not like you might think. I think that Clinton's party because of what they did--not what they didn't do, and I think this will go the same direction.

    Hard to say if the control of either the House or Senate will flip, but I predict that things will go in the Republican's direction.

    You can't defy the will of the American people so blatantly, while they are watching and expect a good reaction.

    KAM
  18.    #398  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That's an interesting statement coming from the Doctor that demonstrates a total ignorance of how HSAs work.

    Absence of Compassion...yes, that's what a liar like you uses as his excuse to attack people that disagree with your leftist drivel. You claim to be "compassionate" but time after time, you've demonstrated your goal is simple, abject political ideology. You wrap, all your garbage up in the cloak of "compassion" and hide behind "expertise" but we see that all falls away when pressed, and you have nothing more than "but I care." Its very clear that you're just another misguided leftist ideologue, and you will continue to help harm people with your "compassion." You support the PROBLEM, and you're too damned arrogant to even realize it.

    You don't care about anything, except supporting this fraud "solution", because that's all your political bias will allow you to understand.

    I can only pray that I never have someone like you in my real life deciding the health of me or my family.

    KAM

    Luckily, HSA's have had miminal interest among people with sense. Otherwise they would have lost everything they had in the recent stock market. Is there a place for them? Maybe, but they just don't do much for people that need help.

    Nice of you to determine what my goal is. The difference between you and me is that I actually do something about my "goal". As best I can tell, you are nothing but another talking head, nastily yelling your talking points that are based on a philosophy that is hardly what the American people REALLY want. You and your allies clearly don't really care what the American people want, and you've demonstrated that again and again. The people want Social Security; they want Medicare, and because you disagree with it philosophically, then you think it's wrong. It's not. You are. Do people expect their government to do things for them? You betcha. And parts of this bill begin this year, with children no longer being denied insurance for pre-existing conditions, chldren being able to stay on their parent's insurance longer, and those adults with pre-existing conditions able to buy into group policies.

    The fact is that you and your ilk on this board, including several mods, do not represent the will of the people. You represent a group of disenchanted malcontents who are primarily interested in yourselves, who don't really care about the health of the country as a whole, are generally well off (you do have computers and fancy phones in any event) and you are just a post away from the creeps throwing money at a disabled individual because they don't like his politics. You know nothing about the impact of disease or resources on the average families that I see every day who are enmeshed in the inadequacies of the health care system. You really think I care what you think about me? From the time the health care debate began, I have been quite up front that what I care about is getting care to people. That has been done. It has not been done in the way I would like and it may require significant changes in the future, but at least the people that I see every day can relax and not worry about losing their insurance if they change jobs. All the teeth gnashing about financing means little to me, because in the end we will end up with a public option and maybe a more nationalized plan, because in the long run, I think it is the only way to control costs. But the primary difference between you and me is that I think we have plenty of money to pay for it. We are the richest nation on earth, we have a low marginal tax rate and we should provide for the health of our children and our nation. And I really don't care at all if you agree with me or not. So you have a nice day, OK? I know I will.
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #399  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Luckily, HSA's have had miminal interest among people with sense. Otherwise they would have lost everything they had in the recent stock market. Is there a place for them? Maybe, but they just don't do much for people that need help.
    Wow, STILL ignorant of this. You really don't have ANY idea what you are talking about do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Nice of you to determine what my goal is. The difference between you and me is that I actually do something about my "goal". As best I can tell, you are nothing but another talking head, nastily yelling your talking points that are based on a philosophy that is hardly what the American people REALLY want. You and your allies clearly don't really care what the American people want, and you've demonstrated that again and again. The people want Social Security; they want Medicare, and because you disagree with it philosophically, then you think it's wrong. It's not. You are. Do people expect their government to do things for them? You betcha. And parts of this bill begin this year, with children no longer being denied insurance for pre-existing conditions, chldren being able to stay on their parent's insurance longer, and those adults with pre-existing conditions able to buy into group policies.
    Well, there's just a little problem with this drivel you and your "ilk" spew. That is a little thing called the Constitution. I know you don't understand or care about it, but some people actually do.

    All you are confirming is that people you support have been successful at creating dependence amongst what are supposed to be free people. Leftists have been very successful at creating a growing class of serfs or pets if you prefer.

    Of course, you are more than willing to ignore the harm that comes with whatever good might be in there--which is a moronic position.

    I don't know how many times it has to be said--people want things like Social Security and Medicare because they are "free" but of course they aren't--that's just the lie that people like you have succeeded in telling.

    People want things handed to them on a silver platter. PRETENDING that can happen isn't good public policy.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    The fact is that you and your ilk on this board, including several mods, do not represent the will of the people. You represent a group of disenchanted malcontents who are primarily interested in yourselves, who don't really care about the health of the country as a whole, are generally well off (you do have computers and fancy phones in any event) and you are just a post away from the creeps throwing money at a disabled individual because they don't like his politics.
    No, and this demonstrates the degree to which you are willing to lie. This group of "disenchanted malcontents" is...oh right--the majority of the American people. Really--frigging grow up and learn to admit reality will you. The American people didn't support this--I'm just one of them.

    And I know you love to try to project behavior of others onto innocents, but that's because you are a shameless, cowardly, liar.


    You know nothing about the impact of disease or resources on the average families that I see every day who are enmeshed in the inadequacies of the health care system. You really think I care what you think about me? From the time the health care debate began, I have been quite up front that what I care about is getting care to people. That has been done.[/quote]

    No, it actually hasn't, and its pathetically sad you don't realize that. What you are doing is supporting an extension of the CAUSE of the problems. You can fantasize all you want about what this is, but you support the entity (government) that is primarily responsible for people NOT having adequate health care, due to their manipulation which has lined the pockets of people like you. You're the biggest hypocrite I've ever had the misfortune of encountering.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    It has not been done in the way I would like and it may require significant changes in the future, but at least the people that I see every day can relax and not worry about losing their insurance if they change jobs. All the teeth gnashing about financing means little to me, because in the end we will end up with a public option and maybe a more nationalized plan, because in the long run, I think it is the only way to control costs. But the primary difference between you and me is that I think we have plenty of money to pay for it. We are the richest nation on earth, we have a low marginal tax rate and we should provide for the health of our children and our nation. And I really don't care at all if you agree with me or not. So you have a nice day, OK? I know I will.
    Yes, but you depend on several lies. First, the Government is inherently involved in the manipulated price system that we have which has CREATED the financial problems, pricing people out of business. This bill doesn't fix that--it extends that. We are ALREADY spending enough money to cover people, but aren't--why, because Government is a pathetic failure--one you happily endorse and give near-total power to.

    Your ignorance of economic issues isn't going to make the problem go away. You're slavish, trust of government IS the problem--you're just too ignorant to realize it.

    I won't have a nice day, because I'm now saddled with even more government fraud--the fraud that helped line your pockets, and drain mine.

    KAM
  20.    #400  
    Given how horrible the government is, I'm really surprised you're still willing to live here. And the freeloading population, including everyone over the age of 65...but don't let reality get in the way of your idyllic free-market fantasies. Maybe you should consider secession, or moving to Texas, where the appropriate sensibilities for you seem to prevail. Ride 'em, cowboy.

Posting Permissions