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  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #341  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i am not denying anything, i just find it a real reach that you or anyone has natural born rights....lol you have what you have. nothing more nothing less.
    by the way, no where do i see the term natural born rights in your constitution.
    you have the following right (s) upon being born, dieing in due time. nothing more nothing less.
    Well, then I suggest you read up on American History, the foundation of things like the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. However, if you choose to simply not believe in the existence of such things...well, I can't convince you otherwise.

    KAM
  2. #342  
    those were posers , not reps.
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  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #343  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    no one i deal with it myself. i would like to quote kam, but i am far too lazy to dig back through his posts. it had to do with the amount of money that would be saved regarding the health care plan. he basically wanted to wait and see the actual amount saved before he was going to believe that you were going to save money.
    so show me, lol as i said extremely pragmatic. lol
    oh by the way, i am also pro choice. lol
    I'm pretty sure you aren't quoting me, so kindly do not attribute something to me that I didn't say, or based on your "lazy" recollection.

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #344  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    bingooooo
    Ah, excellent. I was wrong to consider what you were saying to be meaningful or a sincere expression of your views. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

    KAM
  5. #345  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, then I suggest you read up on American History, the foundation of things like the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. However, if you choose to simply not believe in the existence of such things...well, I can't convince you otherwise.
    Also keep in mind that Enlightenment thinkers were a great influence on the founders.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #346  
    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    Am I wrong?
    Yes.

    KAM
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #347  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    How many times can Teabaggers use the N-word when heckling African America lawmakers before we can call them a racist group???
    Well, I guess for you that number would be 1. Of course, none of this same nonsensical reasoning is ever applied to liberal groups with their hateful or violent, or insane fringe. It is not reasonable to take a tiny minority of Jerks within a group and claim that represents the entire group, just because you dislike them.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    ...with bigoted behavior like this, the Tea Party wants to be taken serious? It's disgusting.
    Well, yes the behavior of those few individuals, that cannot be rightfully projected on others is in fact disgusting Unfortunately, your common "guilt-by-association" thinking is equally as disgusting. It's an exercise in dishonesty.

    It's clear that you are looking for every and any excuse to support your preconceived conclusion--that you want to disregard what ALL of those people have to say. It is clear, by repeated examples, by you, that you are willing to smear the vast majority of these people with the bad actions of a tiny minority.

    However, given that this seems to be a needed tactic for you, I don't suspect that you will stop doing it.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/21/2010 at 03:50 PM.
  8. #348  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    How can you be an atheist if the majority of people declare that there is a God?
    ummm i didnt know you could vote a "god" into being. I might point out that the chinese are ummm officially atheist, and as they pretty much out number the so called Christians, by your own calculations, there is no god. lol sorry had to.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #349  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    I am not a spreadsheet person. You can model whatever you want with spreadsheets. It's the underlying assumptions that determine whether or not the spreadsheet could be used successfully, or to wipe your rear end. I would suggest that neither one of us know enough about long-term health cares costs to be precise enough to know exactly what outcomes would be. That simply mirrors the state of affairs whenever legislation is passed.
    Hmmm, so, by this logic, the CBO analysis should be treated with a great deal of skepticism correct?


    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    One would have thought that tax cuts would improve the economy. They don't, and they never have.
    You clearly do not have much of an understanding of economics or history to make this false claim.

    KAM
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #350  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Also keep in mind that Enlightenment thinkers were a great influence on the founders.
    Yes, that is true. When I said "the foundation" I intended to include these thinkers and philosophers.

    KAM
  11. #351  
    Quote Originally Posted by zelgo View Post
    One of the reasons hardly anyone actually uses COBRA benefits is because they are unaffordable--first, you've just lost your job so you have no income; second, you have to pay both your part and what the employer was paying for you.

    Yes, THAT makes it expensive.
    Well, thanks for repeating what I said. However, under current law if you are involuntarily terminated you only have to pay 35% of the premium....for a period of time....it was originally for 9 months but was increased to, I believe, 15 months (or until you become eligible for other group benefits, whichever occurs first). They change these rules each time they make an extension and it gets quite confusing. Anyway, when you think about it, this was the first step towards taxpayers paying health insurance premiums....a little at a time....that's the way this process works of getting towards universal healthcare....a little...at...a time.
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  12. #352  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    ummm i didnt know you could vote a "god" into being.
    There has neither been a vote declaring that rights are granted by a government.
    I might point out that the chinese are ummm officially atheist, and as they pretty much out number the so called Christians,
    Who said anything about Christians? The overwhelming majority of the planet believes in some sort of supreme being(s).
    by your own calculations, there is no god. lol sorry had to.
    Had to what?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  13. #353  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Ah, excellent. I was wrong to consider what you were saying to be meaningful or a sincere expression of your views. I'll keep that in mind for the future.

    KAM
    lol Kam Kam Kam, the last ones were playing. However, i pretty much have stopped reading your posts, as we will never agree. Your views are as alien to me as mine are to you. You miss my points repeatedly or you don't respond to them.
    I have noticed that no matter what, your views are with out reproach, at least in your mind. There has to be more then just your view on the way the world is. If not, this would be one hell of a boring world.
  14. #354  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Let me make this very simple, and also respond to your request for detailed information about my personal qualifications. I'll make you a deal. I will send you under private message my CV if you will agree to address those qualifications without giving away any specifics about myself. Not surprisingly, I'd just as soon not have people rummaging around my private life/work. But I will insist that you honestly discuss whether or not you think I'm qualified to talk about the costs of healthcare. You seem trustworthy enough to take that step, and just possibly it might shut some people up. Deal?

    Second. We are in fact denying healthcare to people today. What we are not denying is access to emergency care. We are not providing primary care, preventive services, or management of non-emergent primary care illnesses. We are not providing any case management for uninsured people that can help their health status, or save costs. Those are all things that people that have their own doctor take for granted. This underlies your assumptions about costs, and I disagree with your basic assumption, which you stated twice. We DO deny care to the uninsured.

    Third, your "solution" does nothing different. You actually are saying that the 15 million who refuse to buy insurance should be treated by private hospitals and doctors who are then going to try and collect cash from them for payment. What makes you think that is anything different from what happens now, that requires hospitals to write off millions of dollars in services. And you actually said that these write-offs can be built into additional unreasonable charges to make up for it. Do you really not realize that that is one of the major causes of the upward spiral of health care costs? And your "solution" does nothing for the problem. As far as TARP, or macroeconomics of health care, it's much less important to me where the money comes from. i claim no knowledge of whether or not spending TARP money makes sense for funding health care. Likewise, I would suspect that you probably don't know either, since there are certainly alternative uses of the funds that might impact on health care as well.

    My particular favorite would be very simple. Offer Medicare to everyone who wants it, with a means related scale. As is finally being implemented, Warren Buffett probably should be paying for Medicare. If anyone wants additional, fancier boutique coverage, they can buy it, just like Medicare supplements are available right now.

    I am not a spreadsheet person. You can model whatever you want with spreadsheets. It's the underlying assumptions that determine whether or not the spreadsheet could be used successfully, or to wipe your rear end. I would suggest that neither one of us know enough about long-term health cares costs to be precise enough to know exactly what outcomes would be. That simply mirrors the state of affairs whenever legislation is passed. One would have thought that tax cuts would improve the economy. They don't, and they never have. We will never know the unintended consquences of legislation. That doesn't mean we don't do the best we can to estimate and then move forward. I hope that happens.

    More later, but here are some thoughts.

    1st, I don't REALLY want to see your credentials. I wanted you to understand the hyperbole of the request as a response to your declaration that I know nothing about hospital costs and that you were going t set me straight. The point is that unless you have significant experience in many different fields, you might be short in an area or two. There is no one profession that could make you as much more qualified as you appear to see yourself. Those professions would include (but are not limited to) Actuary, statistician, hospital administrator, liability/tort lawyer, constitutional lawyer, investment banker, accountant, business owner, historian, doctor, social worker, psychologist,vparent, etc. etc.

    My point was that WHATEVER it is that you do, it is not sufficient for your to be THAT much more qualified than me or the others on this forum.

    Each of those fields brings knowledge and experience. So don't tell me that that you have the unique ability to understand this complex topic.

    Now, would you please suspend the temptation to pick apart what I wrote - how about if you go back and re-read. Everything you wrote above is stuff I conceded in the same writing:

    Yes, I said emergency care was the wrong way to give care, that it was more expensive and less effective. So why did you need to tell me that again? And the list goes on.

    Dude, you still haven't figure out what to do with all the denouncing you dared me to do - and I did. Or that you said I couldn't come up with any options but negative, etc etc.

    I acknowledged that what I cooked up in a couple of hours wasn't my preference. The point was that I could make the math work without creating a huge new govt entity.

    Until you grasp and acknowledge that stuff, you are just repeating the same arguments over and over. That is tiresome to read.

    and, if people are too stupid to get insurance (speaking of the population that CAN afford it), why do we need laws to force them? Life is hard, and being stupid makes it harder. At some point we have to stop trying to police the world and be the nanny for each citizen. If I ran a restaurant and you came in without money - I should refuse to serve you. If I go to a Dr without money, he should refuse to treat me. If I am starving, someone should make sure I don't starve. If I'm dying, perhaps some emergency care is needed. But if I have money at home and I'm too stupid to bring money I have... then why does it make sense to pass laws and create new govt infrastructure to keep me from being stupid.

    And finally, if you insist that EVERYONE needs insurance, then you have to explain why the 21% of the uninsured that are here illegally are entitled to ANYTHING from my tax dollars...

    I don;'t feel the need to respond to your criticism of my solutions because you haven't even acknowledged that I came up with solutions. You dismissed them out of hand. Of course they didn't do anything more than Obamacare. THat was the point. It did the same thing with no new entitlement or growth in govt.

    Acknowledge what challenges have been met, and where I pointed out my own flaws. You are basically arguing with yourself...
  15.    #355  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    More later, but here are some thoughts.

    1st, I don't REALLY want to see your credentials. I wanted you to understand the hyperbole of the request as a response to your declaration that I know nothing about hospital costs and that you were going t set me straight. The point is that unless you have significant experience in many different fields, you might be short in an area or two. There is no one profession that could make you as much more qualified as you appear to see yourself. Those professions would include (but are not limited to) Actuary, statistician, hospital administrator, liability/tort lawyer, constitutional lawyer, investment banker, accountant, business owner, historian, doctor, social worker, psychologist,vparent, etc. etc.

    My point was that WHATEVER it is that you do, it is not sufficient for your to be THAT much more qualified than me or the others on this forum.

    Each of those fields brings knowledge and experience. So don't tell me that that you have the unique ability to understand this complex topic.

    Now, would you please suspend the temptation to pick apart what I wrote - how about if you go back and re-read. Everything you wrote above is stuff I conceded in the same writing:

    Yes, I said emergency care was the wrong way to give care, that it was more expensive and less effective. So why did you need to tell me that again? And the list goes on.

    Dude, you still haven't figure out what to do with all the denouncing you dared me to do - and I did. Or that you said I couldn't come up with any options but negative, etc etc.

    I acknowledged that what I cooked up in a couple of hours wasn't my preference. The point was that I could make the math work without creating a huge new govt entity.

    Until you grasp and acknowledge that stuff, you are just repeating the same arguments over and over. That is tiresome to read.

    and, if people are too stupid to get insurance (speaking of the population that CAN afford it), why do we need laws to force them? Life is hard, and being stupid makes it harder. At some point we have to stop trying to police the world and be the nanny for each citizen. If I ran a restaurant and you came in without money - I should refuse to serve you. If I go to a Dr without money, he should refuse to treat me. If I am starving, someone should make sure I don't starve. If I'm dying, perhaps some emergency care is needed. But if I have money at home and I'm too stupid to bring money I have... then why does it make sense to pass laws and create new govt infrastructure to keep me from being stupid.

    And finally, if you insist that EVERYONE needs insurance, then you have to explain why the 21% of the uninsured that are here illegally are entitled to ANYTHING from my tax dollars...

    I don;'t feel the need to respond to your criticism of my solutions because you haven't even acknowledged that I came up with solutions. You dismissed them out of hand. Of course they didn't do anything more than Obamacare. THat was the point. It did the same thing with no new entitlement or growth in govt.

    Acknowledge what challenges have been met, and where I pointed out my own flaws. You are basically arguing with yourself...
    My response is quite simple. Your solutions did nothing to change the major problems in the current system. You can say they are solutions, but they're not. Again, you avoid the details. And by the way, I have always said all citizens should be entitled to access to adequate health care...not "everyone".

    In fact, I have never claimed any expertise in any of those fields except for health care, both the way it's provided (because I have been a provider for many many years) and health care policy (because I have been trained in it...as well as statistics and epidemiology as part of my "other" degree). Aspects of legality that have to do with health care I am reasonably familiar with, but I defy you to find anywhere I claim any particular knowledge about the law, or accounting (that would be my wife, who is a CPA). I consider myself a historian about health care, but not much else, and as I stated in the previous response, I am not a spreadsheet person. But I do know health care, I know how doctors practice, I know about health care economics, I know what it means to run and finance a practice, and I know what it means to have the responsibility of taking care of patients who have no insurance and are facing bankruptcy and death through no fault of their own. I have no doubt you know many things I don't. I also have no doubt I know more about these things than you do, unless you want to enlighten me.
    Last edited by davidra; 03/21/2010 at 04:13 PM.
  16. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #356  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    lol Kam Kam Kam, the last ones were playing. However, i pretty much have stopped reading your posts, as we will never agree. Your views are as alien to me as mine are to you. You miss my points repeatedly or you don't respond to them.
    I have noticed that no matter what, your views are with out reproach, at least in your mind. There has to be more then just your view on the way the world is. If not, this would be one hell of a boring world.
    Please do stop reading my posts, and wasting my time then.

    KAM
  17. #357  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    lol Kam Kam Kam, the last ones were playing. However, i pretty much have stopped reading your posts, as we will never agree.
    This is a complete cop-out and excuse for poor behavior.
    Your views are as alien to me as mine are to you. You miss my points repeatedly or you don't respond to them.
    Perhaps it's because you're presenting yourself more as a class clown throwing spit balls rather than a serious participant in a discussion. As someone who has had several philosophical disagreements with KAM, I can assure you that when one honestly disagrees with him if your point isn't at least being acknowledged, the problem may lie on your end.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  18.    #358  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Perhaps it's because you're presenting yourself more as a class clown throwing spit balls rather than a serious participant in a discussion. As someone who has had several philosophical disagreements with KAM, I can assure you that when one honestly disagrees with him if your point isn't at least being acknowledged, the problem may lie on your end.

    Ah yes. You two do have many things in common.
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #359  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Ah yes. You two do have many things in common.
    Yes, like an understanding of principles, history, basic economic realities, the Constitution. You know--the things that people like you depend on distorting in order to continually forward your flawed, and damaging demands.

    I know you can't tolerate the existence of those who disagree with your demands, but yes, such people do exist. Now, I'm sure you will want to go enjoy your political victory so you can pretend to care about people and pretend that this will solve the problems that people like you created in the first place. Then when this fails like all other politically motivated disaster orchestrated by morons, you can advocate ANOTHER failure, blaming everyone but those actually responsible.

    Of course, given that you are so prone to denial of reality, I'm sure you will continue to blame someone like me.

    KAM
  20. #360  
    I find myself wondering why David Frum, conservative author, confirmed that (a) the Republican position was based upon creating "Obama's Waterloo", (b) the plan itself reflects many Republican ideas, and is by no means radical, (c) the Republican Party has been co-opted by the fringe of the party, (d) the positive outcomes of this bill make it impossible to repeal, and (e) the Waterloo will be the Republicans.

    Required Reading: Waterloo | FrumForum
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