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  1. #281  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Dude, youre wasting your time with this one.
    Why do you say that?
  2. #282  
    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    This is one of those libertarian positions that just can't be rationally argued.
    ITYM 'cannot be rationally countered'.
    Your fellow citizens and the society that you live in has deemed it so.
    That is not a rational argument against it. "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
    They don't care about natural rights and they don't care about a luddite strict constructionist view of the Constitution that ignores centuries of settled case law.
    It seems that's why the original design of the US government was not a democracy. Your straw man is showing.
    If they did, we wouldn't have these social safety nets in place. Arguing about whether it's a right when society clearly deems it so is an exercise in ideological rigidity as a matter of faith. What does it get you?
    Apparently it gets you mischaracterized and insulted.
    These are questions best answered by democracy at the ballot box. And they were answered. Resoundingly.
    But is the answer static? Seems you take a luddite strict constructionist view yourself.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  3. #283  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Why do you say that?
    Because Dr Dave doesnt respond with anything other than what you have been getting so far. He is above us (my perception) and thinks we're all ignorant savages.

    Really liked your post on logical fallacy's. That's pretty much everything in here at some point or another.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  4. #284  
    Quote Originally Posted by RPFTW View Post
    Those middle aged neocon fools in that video are just as despicable as their left wing counter parts.

    They are both clueless as ****** and I hope their kids take a long hard look at their bull**** and choose to reject the false left vs right paradigm.

    I love how anyone that has a protest is now given the label as being a tea party protester...

    Do you fools even know what TEA stood for?

    It stood for TAXED ENOUGH ALREADY

    There is no fking national tea party organization that conducts protests or something...

    These are just millions of different people across the country that are out expressing different views...

    The original protests were done via RP supporters and libertarians protesting tax %'s, and issues of constitutionality.

    It's hilarious to watch the media convince all of you and apparently everyone else that anyone that protests anything is now a racist right wing ******** sarah palin supporter.

    The Ron Paul & Libertarian crowd is where the truth is.

    All the rest at these various protests are just misguided arm chair quarterbacks that couldn't tell you who the president of Georgia was if their life depended upon it.
    according to you!?
  5. #285  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    according to you!?
    LOL you quoted his entire post for your 3 word response. That made my day!
  6. #286  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Because Dr Dave doesnt respond with anything other than what you have been getting so far. He is above us (my perception) and thinks we're all ignorant savages.

    Really liked your post on logical fallacy's. That's pretty much everything in here at some point or another.
    Well said. I think you have the situation absolutely pegged.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #287  
    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    $940 billion is taken out of the pocket of the taxpayer. In turn, the government saves an estimated $1.3 trillion, for a net return of a little under $400 bil, give or take. Let's say they've even overestimated by 25%, or roughly $400 billion. We're still breaking even *AND* we have the side effect of 35 million (!!) Americans being medically covered.
    Yes, ESTIMATED savings. When that actually happens, then I'll believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    Governmental health care liability is going up whether you and I like it or not. The costs are set in stone and only going up. We have a choice: either we pull out of pocket now and cover them and allow a private company to assume the liability, or we let them run up bills that they either run to Medicare to cover or the hospital takes the loss and writes it off. Paying now to reduce liability later is good policy. Even if you screw up the numbers by nearly a half trillion dollars, it still makes sense. How is that bad policy?
    Its a bad policy because it doesn't address the actual problem. None of these proposals address the problem that led us to where we are--a manipulated system. We are merely continuing the problem and pretending the effects will go away. They will not.

    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    Government is efficient when it's run efficiently. I would argue that government clearly has been run inefficiently for years. It is unfair to allow politicians to strip large swaths of government efficiency and enforcement away, watch it become wildly inefficient, then complain that the efficiency is inherent.
    It is inefficient, because it is bloated, has no motivation to be efficient, and it is in many ways corrupt (vote buying schemes of one stripe or another). The overreaching nature of the Federal government IS the problem, which enables these problems to occur. Politicians have tried to make the government be something it was never intended to be, and this is just adding more to the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    If you want to see inefficient, you should try government contractors. Or the entire financial industry. Or the entire auto industry. Or the entire food industry. Or the entire transportation industry. The romanticizing of the private sector as a paragon of efficiency is absurd.
    Yes, all of these things regulated (inefficiently) by the government. In an actual free market--you succeed or you go away. Its funny you mention all these things, that the government has their claws deeply into, and then pretend that somehow the government is totally not responsible for any problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    So rather than attempt to fix the system, the answer is...?
    Sorry, but I reject this fraud as a "fix." It isn't. Its yet another big government boondoggle that will do what they all do--place undue burdens on the taxpayer while providing less than it should. And of course, when this fails, someone like you will AGAIN insist that we AGAIN repeat the same mistakes over and over and over, never actually solving the problems.

    My answer is this: Be honest about the problem, and THEN look for a real solution.

    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    This is one of those libertarian positions that just can't be rationally argued. Your fellow citizens and the society that you live in has deemed it so. They don't care about natural rights and they don't care about a luddite strict constructionist view of the Constitution that ignores centuries of settled case law. If they did, we wouldn't have these social safety nets in place. Arguing about whether it's a right when society clearly deems it so is an exercise in ideological rigidity as a matter of faith. What does it get you?
    Wow, no offense, but that's a big pile of nonsense. Actually, but surprisingly people really do care about...oh, the supreme law of the land. I know that people have done their best to try and dumb down the public's understanding of such vital things, but it hasn't worked...yet.

    I've got some news for you--Society doesn't deem something legal--law does, and that law that you so flippantly ignore is important. Our fellow citizens have NOT asked for this--in fact, in the case of this mess, they are opposed to it, yet, we've got our government officials ignoring that. You've just got this so backwards.

    Of course, your position relies on ignoring the fact that these anti-libertarian views and policies are exactly what have been pushed for about 100 years, and which have created the problems we have now, but your answer is--more of the same. Let's delve deeper into the failed programs and just hope that somehow it turns out different. That's nonsense of the highest order, and THAT is what cannot be rationally supported.

    Quote Originally Posted by biggyfred View Post
    These are questions best answered by democracy at the ballot box. And they were answered. Resoundingly.
    Nonsense. Because people trusted that a politician WOULD do what they wanted and voted for them is NOT justification for anything they might come up with. Clearly, on this issue at least the people are not getting what they thought they were. You seem to be ignoring the fact that people are engaged on this. Apparently, our politicians feel sufficiently shielded from their Constituents such that they can go against their wishes.

    All you are doing is pointing out how poorly those elected are reflecting the will of the public today.

    We'll see the "resounding" response to what is going on now, next November.

    KAM
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #288  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i would humbly suggest, that even your "rights" were paid for, in lives and cash.
    No, they are PRESERVED by people willing to die for them.

    KAM
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #289  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Sure it can...I characterized it as such above. It was actually quite easy.
    No, just because you utter an inherently wrong statement doesn't mean it is valid. As I said--you truly do not seem to understand the concept. You are forwarding a fallacy, based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what a natural right is.

    KAM
  10. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #290  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Ahh...back to the insults.
    No, just an accurate description of your statements. But I guess, I should have expected you to cry victim when you've got no other response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Using the actual CBO numbers can hardly be a distortion. The distortion is saying things like this, just because you don't like what the CBO says:
    Nonsense. Utter nonsense. You are forwarding the false notion that because the CBO comes up with a number for SOMETHING that it is a realistic predictor of what reality will be.
    You're doing nothing except waving around a number based on what Democrats want the CBO to score. All the can do is evaluate what they are handed, and that information was selected by people for the purpose of getting a favorable number.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The CBO is used by both sides of Congress for a reason.....you choose to simply ignore data that displeases you. That seems to be more of the fantasy than actually relying on the data.
    I didn't ignore it at all--I merely have an understanding of the Relevance, which you ignore. The CBO isn't a arbiter of truth--they merely make calculations based on the information they are asked to score. That information is at best incomplete, cannot take into account changes in the future, and in fact isn't even taking into account what the final bill will end up being (which no one knows).

    Yet people such as yourself dishonestly (or ignorantly) present it as some sort of objective factual evidence of what will happen, despite knowing that this rarely turns out to be the case for this sort of program.

    Again--was Medicare passed PLANNING to go broke or did the estimates fail to accurately predict the future? Right, yet somehow, THIS TIME, it will all be different. THIS time, the politicians gave perfect, accurate, complete Data for the CBO to score and THIS time, nothing will happen to ever negatively impact this rosy prediction. If you believe that, you are as gullible (or willfully ignorant) as they come.

    KAM
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #291  
    Quote Originally Posted by sir_mycroft View Post
    I disagree. Your rights are yours to begin with. You may have had to defend them with lives and cash, but they were yours originally for free.

    I would go even further than the original posters, and say that no Government can grant you rights, because they are already yours. Your rights exist beyond Governement fiat or whim. And therefore your rights cannot be legitimately stripped by any Governemnt. To do so is an abuse of power. A government's only legitimate use of its power is to protect you from others trying to abuse those rights already endowed to you innately.

    At least, that is what I believe.
    That's not just what you believe. It is the basis for our entire system of government. It is absolutely shameful that we've raised people who have such a total lack of understanding of this.

    However, it is clear that this is exactly the case--which is on very painful display here daily.

    It comes as no surprise that people who have been crippled by ignorance of the most fundamental concepts of our society end up advocating things that violate these truths.

    This ignorance leads them to see government as their lord and master, giver of rights, and controller of their lives. This is one of the most dangerous threats to a free society that can exist--a citizenry that doesn't understand the fundamental nature of rights and their source.

    KAM
  12. #292  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    No, they are PRESERVED by people willing to die for them.

    KAM
    i would agree and disagree, yes you have people willing to die to preserve those rights, but you had people pay with their lives to get you those rights. apples to apples kam not apples to oranges.
  13. #293  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    No, just because you utter an inherently wrong statement doesn't mean it is valid. As I said--you truly do not seem to understand the concept. You are forwarding a fallacy, based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what a natural right is.

    KAM
    one mans meal is another mans trash. your interpretation of something is not necessarily everyones. If all believed as you do, then this conversation would not be happening.
  14. #294  
    one quick note on 'projected savings'.

    the idea of savings requires something to be spent. The amount saved can not be greater than the amount spent. So we can spend 2 trilion and save a few hundred billion, or we can not spend 2trillion and thereby save it all.

    also, it's not saved unlesss it goes back to the person that spent it - the tax payer.

    everone that supports obamacare, do us a favor.

    any time you use a coupon, send your savings to me (paypal would be fine). If you get a rebate on your phone, send it to me. Apparentlyy you will feel just as good about 'saving' even if it doesn't go back in to your pocket... Just sayin'
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/20/2010 at 06:40 PM.
  15. #295  
    We'll see the "resounding" response to what is going on now, next November.

    KAM

    you just may Kam, you just may.
  16. #296  
    Quote Originally Posted by RPFTW View Post
    The Ron Paul & Libertarian crowd is where the truth is.


    ABSOLUTELY!
  17. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #297  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    i would agree and disagree, yes you have people willing to die to preserve those rights, but you had people pay with their lives to get you those rights. apples to apples kam not apples to oranges.
    No, you just aren't understanding this. Those rights are natural born rights--meaning, no one can rightfully deny them to you. People did in fact fight to prevent people from violating those rights, but that did not ESTABLISH them.

    KAM
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #298  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    one mans meal is another mans trash. your interpretation of something is not necessarily everyones. If all believed as you do, then this conversation would not be happening.
    It is not an interpretation. It is what a natural born right is. This "conservation" is happening, because some people are denying what a natural born right is.

    KAM
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #299  
    Quote Originally Posted by xForsaken View Post
    We'll see the "resounding" response to what is going on now, next November.

    KAM

    you just may Kam, you just may.
    Time will tell. The issue at hand here is the (false) claim that because someone was voted into office, anything they do is justified and the will of the people. That A) depends on people understanding exactly what the candidate stood for, in detail, B) the candidate when elected actually does specifically what he claimed--also in detail, C) the situation did not change which would alter the wishes of the people. There might also be other issues which could make the people change their views, or a politician not follow the CURRENT wishes of the people.

    What is much more clear (although really hard to confirm) is that people respond to something that DOES happen.

    KAM
  20. #300  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    It is not an interpretation. It is what a natural born right is. This "conservation" is happening, because some people are denying what a natural born right is.

    KAM
    Natural born rights, lolol who what when where, perhaps in your world, not the rest of it.

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