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  1. #241  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    -1

    What? Education and the Postal service are BOTH mandated in the constitution. Seriously Dude, I'm really disappointed in you for that. You were doing so well until that comment. What happened?
    Post Office yes, Education no.

    Please read the document.
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  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #242  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    It's not gullibility or wishful thinking to trust data from the CBO over the opinions of right-wing pundits and conspiracy theorists...it's simply informed decision-making. That's what the CBO is there for, and has been used by Congress forever - until their conclusions don't agree with the spin, and then it's magically not trustworthy.

    I'd bet if they said it increased the deficit, you'd trust it then!
    Another wonderful example of misdirection and willful ignorance. It isn't a matter of pundits or conspiracy, its knowledge of history. BASIC knowledge of history that you apparently are ignorant of.

    It isn't about a problem with the CBO, that's just a distortion that you're attempting to rely on. The ACTUAL issue is that Reality, and Estimates have a habit of diverging. History teaches us this, which is exactly why Social Security, and Medicare are going broke. That is unless you believe that they PLANNED to have these programs become insolvent.

    Despite having very close parallel examples, you ridiculously deny that this is a possibility. You cling to a near-meaningless number in an effort to deny reality, and engage in a fantasy that THIS time, things will be different, THIS time, reality won't overrun these estimates. As I said--that's just willful ignorance.

    You're welcome to ignore history, but of course, as the saying goes...you will very likely be repeating it. Unfortunately, the rest of us will be forced to repeat it with you, due to this sort of nonsensical denial of history and reality. Or perhaps, more accurately the willful lying of Congress.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/19/2010 at 01:27 PM.
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #243  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Of course, his exact words don't match what you want him to have said ----> therefore, what he actually said wasn't "what he was saying". Got it.
    No, you're wrong again. I referred specifically to what he actually said. Unlike you who ignores what he was actually talking about to forward your half-truths.

    KAM
  4. #244  
    Civility guys.
  5. #245  
    "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others. His own good, either physical of moral, is not a sufficient warrant."

    - John Stuart Mills "On Liberty"
    VisorPhone Clone
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  6. #246  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Where is education mandated in the Constitution?
    Wow, I could have sworn it was in there, but perhaps I am wrong? I appologize profusely.

    I know it's been years since I had a Civics class, but why did I think that is in there? Isn't that always one of the reasons people use to oppose school vouchers?

    I removed my post, owned my mistake, and issued an apology for making that mistake. How embarrassing...
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/19/2010 at 01:57 PM.
  7. #247  
    Quote Originally Posted by sir_mycroft View Post
    Post Office yes, Education no.

    Please read the document.
    I apologize. It must be the "dyslex-heimers" again (aka old age). I was remembering 8th grade civics, and I must have missed that question. I just checked, and I was wrong on that... Apologies to all.

    EDIT: I see now that Thomas Jefferson wrote about it and supported it, but it first showed up in STATE constitutions during that time. Close, but no cigar...
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/19/2010 at 02:24 PM.
  8. #248  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Isn't that always one of the reasons people use to oppose school vouchers?
    I believe the 2 main reasons against school vouchers are not endorsing a particular religion (using tax dollars at religious schools) and not draining tax dollars from the Public System.
  9. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #249  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Truth... he tells the truth!!!!

    Republicans should have came out with a plan... then maybe we can compare and contrast. Instead, all we have is hot air...

    Republican: I don't like obama's plan. I know we need a plan, but I don't have anything to offer. I know, it is socialism.
    Well, see, you simply aren't telling the truth. You might not like the plans that Republicans have, and might not think they go far enough, but a plan does exist. Pretending it doesn't and repeating that is...well, its a lie.

    This whole meme of "Republicans don't have a plan" is a misdirection at best, an outright lie at worst. This is just propaganda. Of course that is the nature of the propagandist--THEIR lies are perfectly acceptable.

    The fact is--it just doesn't satisfy what you want, there is no reason to lie about its existence. I did a quick web search, which immediately reveals the lie you are telling.

    Health Care - GOP Solutions for America - GOP.gov

    You might think it sucks, but it does exist, so it only makes you look foolish to persist with so blatant a lie.

    FactCheck: What's Inside the GOP Health-Care Plans - Newsweek.com
    Contrary to claims made by some Democratic detractors, detailed GOP proposals, and a bipartisan bill with several GOP cosponsors, do exist. And they're scheduled to get attention at a half-day, televised "summit" meeting at Blair House on Feb. 25, with President Obama presiding and lawmakers from both parties attending.

    In our Analysis section we take a detailed look at the GOP alternatives and offer a side-by-side comparison with the Democratic bills passed by the Senate and House. President Obama has released a proposal that merges the House and Senate bills.

    Perhaps you've heard of the Wyden-Bennett Bill--a Bipartisan plan, also called the "Healthy American's Act."
    An Examination of the Wyden-Bennett Health Reform Plan — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities

    Whether anyone likes any of these ideas is a matter for debate, but to keep perpetuating the lie that there has been no other plans proposed is ridiculous. Its very telling that the left seems to depend so heavily on defining things by their own dictate in order to support their demands. It is a demonstration of the deception that supporters of this so-called reform rely on so heavily--all the while railing against the horrible lies from Republicans. That makes it hypocrisy as well.

    But hey--why let facts get in the way, when a oft-repeated propaganda line will do?

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 03/19/2010 at 02:30 PM.
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    #250  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I believe the 2 main reasons against school vouchers are not endorsing a particular religion (using tax dollars at religious schools) and not draining tax dollars from the Public System.
    Which begs the question, why route the money through government in the first place? My problem with vouchers is that its like having to ask permission to use your own money. I mean, I know its crazy, but some communities actually prefer to be responsible for educating their own kids. Those people either have to acquiesce to the public system or pay double. And that's something to remember when talking about health care reform!
  11. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #251  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I believe the 2 main reasons against school vouchers are not endorsing a particular religion (using tax dollars at religious schools) and not draining tax dollars from the Public System.
    This of course makes the incorrect assumption that "tax dollars" are something other than the collected money of individuals.

    KAM
  12. #252  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Which begs the question, why route the money through government in the first place? My problem with vouchers is that its like having to ask permission to use your own money. I mean, I know its crazy, but some communities actually prefer to be responsible for educating their own kids. Those people either have to acquiesce to the public system or pay double. And that's something to remember when talking about health care reform!
    Please don't let my bad memory on a minor fact from 8th grade Civics class get you off on a tangent that will take another huge thread to cover. Let's leave public schools alone for now (please).

    I'm sitll waiting for the name calling to stop and for someone to provide an articulate reply to the ideas I "didn't have" that are listed in a previous post! Let's not inject schools into this. I'm sorry I brought it up, and I'm sorry it was wrong. I was just having fun with a tangential post, and I may have created a monster. Lets stick to healthcare...
  13. #253  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Which begs the question, why route the money through government in the first place? My problem with vouchers is that its like having to ask permission to use your own money. I mean, I know its crazy, but some communities actually prefer to be responsible for educating their own kids. Those people either have to acquiesce to the public system or pay double. And that's something to remember when talking about health care reform!
    That's fine for those with the ability and the resources, but that's a small percentage. And yes. like health care, education is one of the most important aspects to human well being, so no, we're not going to trust it to the ferengi ( ).

    Besides, the public system is You educating your OWN kids. You have the option to be involved as much as possible and even add to their curriculum at home.
  14. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #254  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Please don't let my bad memory on a minor fact from 8th grade Civics class get you off on a tangent that will take another huge thread to cover. Let's leave public schools alone for now (please).

    I'm sitll waiting for the name calling to stop and for someone to provide an articulate reply to the ideas I "didn't have" that are listed in a previous post! Let's not inject schools into this. I'm sorry I brought it up, and I'm sorry it was wrong. I was just having fun with a tangential post, and I may have created a monster. Lets stick to healthcare...
    Well, no one is interested in talking about solutions--least of all our government officials who are engaged in possibly one of the most pure political efforts in our (or my) lifetime.

    KAM
  15. #255  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Please don't let my bad memory on a minor fact from 8th grade Civics class get you off on a tangent that will take another huge thread to cover. Let's leave public schools alone for now (please).

    I'm sitll waiting for the name calling to stop and for someone to provide an articulate reply to the ideas I "didn't have" that are listed in a previous post! Let's not inject schools into this. I'm sorry I brought it up, and I'm sorry it was wrong. I was just having fun with a tangential post, and I may have created a monster. Lets stick to healthcare...
    Doh! Too late!
  16. #256  
    Hey, more numbers when I should be working... If you took the money being proposed for healthcare, and spent it to buy stock... You could buy the following companies outright:

    Walmart, General Electric, Cisco Systems, Google, Microsoft, and Apple for less than 2Trillion dollars. I'm guessing their profits would more than cover the cost of insuring 15 million people.

    I'm not proposing we do that, I'm just saying this shows the difference between giving $2trillion to the government t spend, vs putting $2trillion into the market place where it produces money, rather than just consuming it... I'm just sayin'
  17. #257  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Doh! Too late!
    Doh!

    I propose that we start a thread about your hair... and how jealous I am about how much you have and how little I have left. Seriously dude, you look like a rock star. What do you do for a living?
  18. #258  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Well, no one is interested in talking about solutions--least of all our government officials who are engaged in possibly one of the most pure political efforts in our (or my) lifetime.

    KAM
    Ha, let's give them some time to pull pull out calculators or dig around for an argument to what I wrote.

    Hey, don't you work for the government? Shouldn't you be working right now???

    LOL
  19. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #259  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's fine for those with the ability and the resources, but that's a small percentage. And yes. like health care, education is one of the most important aspects to human well being, so no, we're not going to trust it to the ferengi ( ).

    Besides, the public system is You educating your OWN kids. You have the option to be involved as much as possible and even add to their curriculum at home.
    Well, actually in many cases the opposite is true. People send their kids off to be housed in schools (many of them very poor), and pretend they are getting an education, and it ends there. Unfortunately, despite the extensive amounts of money we spend, we are not getting good educations for our children. There are many reasons of course.

    Perhaps if people had more responsibility for their children's learning, results would be better. If they had the responsibility to choose a school, determine whether it is good or bad, it might lead to improvement. Or considering the number of uncaring parents, maybe not.

    KAM
  20. #260  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    That's fine for those with the ability and the resources, but that's a small percentage. And yes. like health care, education is one of the most important aspects to human well being, so no, we're not going to trust it to the ferengi ( ).

    Besides, the public system is You educating your OWN kids. You have the option to be involved as much as possible and even add to their curriculum at home.
    Well said, even if it isn't about healthcare. Man, I wish I hadn't made that snide (and incorrect) comment about education... Talk about regretting my words...

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