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  1. #181  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    ... As I've said, I'd be delighted if people of all sides of the discussion just agree that this is reprehensible behavior and let it go at that...but some just can't seem to do it. Can you, Mr. Liberal?
    Oh, and I think that "liberal" might be female. That would be Ms. Liberal to you...

    And I think he/she is demonstrating what I was saying about "change". A significant amount of the population wanted even more change than Obama is bringing. They wanted even MORE of what he promised. Even MORE than the current healthcare bill. They also wanted GITMO closed, troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, etc etc etc. And I respect their right to those views. And I can understand why they are upset now, because Obama is discovering the same thing every other hot shot discovers when they get elected. It's easy to say stuff in the campaign, it's a lot harder to do once you are in office. His mouth wrote checks that his **** can't cash, and the more liberal members of his party are very unhappy that he hasn't fulfilled his promises to them. They are correct. That makes them angry - it makes conservatives happy

    BTW, I didn't say "republican" because very few of the current republicans in office are conservative....

    What I was saying is there was also a large % of the population that wanted a different kind of change. Myself included. Reagan and Clinton (in his first term) were both effective. Carter was a disaster. Both Bushes were a disaster. Obama is heading towards disaster.

    So, let's make sure the politicians understand what we meant by "change"... Because I think in the next election we are going to see huge change, and I don't want the new politicians to define something as radical and reckless as what Obama thinks it meant. Extreme is extreme. Lets hope the next batch have some brains and a bit of integrity. The current batch has neither.
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 06:47 PM.
  2. #182  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Just read post 190, in which I stated those people are not representative of all conservatives. And then please address the details you seem to want to avoid.
    I don't think I've avoided anything. Let me know what you think I missed. I know I re-framed a few things, but I was pretty sure I addressed the stuff I have an opinion on. Where I saw someone else say the same thing I would (like about "death panels", I didn't feel the need to repeat things. But I did thank them, or at least I think I did...

    Using death panels as an example. The quote from Obama above was correct. I don't think there will be death panels. But, if you grabbed a few quotes from the many other pundits that speak on behalf of the current legislation, and defend the president on talk shows... and you will see that they have said some REALLY radical stuff, especially in the beginning when they thought they had a mandate. As resistance has strengthened, they have been coached on words and phrases to avoid.

    That's why it went from "universal health care" to "healthcare reform". We can all agree that it needs to be reformed. But those of us that don't like the "universal" brand of reform have the topic re-framed with less threatening rhetoric with the assumption that we won't notice that it's the same legislation.

    Don't you get tired of being played for stupid by these guys? That's why I get so frustrated when I hear people repeat the nonsense they hear from politicians from either party. You let me debate any member of congress from either party, and they will have no idea what hit them. As voters we need to challenge their shell games, rhetoric, and legislation that produces the opposite results of the bill's stated purpose.

    That doesn't make me a hater or an extremist. That makes me an informed thinker, which is how I wound up buying a Palm Pre, even after everyone told me to get a MotoDroid. I got information, and looked past the rhetoric to make a good decision based on facts. And I love my Pre.

    Now, if there are any items in this thread that I need to denounce or defende, just let me know. I am enjoying your comments. Like I said, you are clearly smarter than the average voter. So is KAM, by the way.

    That's what has made this more interesting that watching Palm try to climb out of the hole they dug for themselves...
  3.    #183  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I don't think I've avoided anything. Let me know what you think I missed. I know I re-framed a few things, but I was pretty sure I addressed the stuff I have an opinion on. Where I saw someone else say the same thing I would (like about "death panels", I didn't feel the need to repeat things. But I did thank them, or at least I think I did...

    Using death panels as an example. The quote from Obama above was correct. I don't think there will be death panels. But, if you grabbed a few quotes from the many other pundits that speak on behalf of the current legislation, and defend the president on talk shows... and you will see that they have said some REALLY radical stuff, especially in the beginning when they thought they had a mandate. As resistance has strengthened, they have been coached on words and phrases to avoid.

    That's why it went from "universal health care" to "healthcare reform". We can all agree that it needs to be reformed. But those of us that don't like the "universal" brand of reform have the topic re-framed with less threatening rhetoric with the assumption that we won't notice that it's the same legislation.

    Don't you get tired of being played for stupid by these guys? That's why I get so frustrated when I hear people repeat the nonsense they hear from politicians from either party. You let me debate any member of congress from either party, and they will have no idea what hit them. As voters we need to challenge their shell games, rhetoric, and legislation that produces the opposite results of the bill's stated purpose.

    That doesn't make me a hater or an extremist. That makes me an informed thinker, which is how I wound up buying a Palm Pre, even after everyone told me to get a MotoDroid. I got information, and looked past the rhetoric to make a good decision based on facts. And I love my Pre.

    Now, if there are any items in this thread that I need to denounce or defende, just let me know. I am enjoying your comments. Like I said, you are clearly smarter than the average voter. So is KAM, by the way.

    That's what has made this more interesting that watching Palm try to climb out of the hole they dug for themselves...
    OK...I'll try and be more specific. I want to know how you are going to provide care for 30 to 45 million people who don't have it. I want to know if I can call you to come down to the ER to turn people away if they choose to not buy insurance. As I said, I want the details....because it's by avoiding the details that republicans/conservatives are able to mis-characterize health insurance reform. You see, I see this every day. I don't really give a good ******* about what you think about the CBO's assumptions, or how much wrenches cost, or what you think about Al Gore. I want to know what you are going to do for people who are sick and can't afford care. So by all means, just do your best to postulate how you are going to solve this problem. Is that clear enough?
  4. #184  
    Quote Originally Posted by davidra View Post
    Sorry...you need to do better. First, you can expound about cash for clunkers, and auto insurance, and Al Gore, and excessive defense spending. You have not answered my question. I happen to be where the rubber hits the road. I asked you to be specific, because I have to every day. Don't get lost in the details? It's the details that matter to me.

    I also have no idea what you mean when you talk about "numbers being thrown around". If you're talking about the uninsured, and you want that information, here's a link I've already posted twice in the past.

    Overview of the Uninsured in the United States: An analysis of the 2005 Current Population Survey: Issue Brief

    And finally, while I'm not characterizing your father-in-law story, the fact that he had "a major rush of expensive problems at the end" when he had Medicare seems to be a bit of an oxymoron. End of life care is covered by Medicare for a period of time, and after that is usually picked up by Medicaid. Did his "expensive problems" wipe out his savings? Was his family responsible for paying for it? Or did Medicare, that horrible public option?

    Ignore the details if you want...but it doesn't help your argument. I want to know what to do at work tomorrow. Please tell me.
    What you should do at work is whatever your job description says. AS far as my examples, thats what they are. It wasn't bad that he had medicare at the end. He sure paid enough taxes into that system. My point was all the years leading up to that, and years ago when insurance wasn't as important or as common. You can't take stats from 60 years ago and use them as if they have the same meaning today. That's all.

    And I appreciate the link. It kind of proves my point. It was written by the government, and a department run by a political appointee, based on CENSUS data. Last time I checked, the census was designed to count people, not survey insurance status. What they did is add up insurance policies and compare it to the number of people the counted. It would take more than this forum to explain all the incorrect assumptions and risks in that little exercise.

    I wouldn't trust data gathered by census takers any more than I would trust info from the insurance industry. They are both likely to be less honest, and less capable of understanding what to do with the data.

    But let's assume they are absolutely correct. My point has been that I am all for helping people get insurance. I am simply saying that the current plan will not accomplish that, and we will crush our economy in the process of finding out if I'm right or not.


    Those of us with some brains can find MUCH better ways to actually accomplish the stated purpose.

    Do not make the mistake of concluding that my opposition to this legislation is remotely equivalent to thinking that people shouldn't be able to get healthcare - whether there are 3 million or 30 million. I'm all for helping them, so lets do something that will actually help. Please scroll up and see how many times I've said that.

    You can disagree with my conclusion that universal healthcare wont fix the problem, and you can dismiss the history examples I've used. That's fine. Show me where a govt entitlement has improved things. If Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc had been effective, then there wouldn't be a health care crisis.

    And if govt is the answer, how come there are more hungry and homeless now than when those programs were started? Don't tell me it's because those programs didn't go far enough, or that the govt should have done more. History tells us that the opposite is true. That's why Clinton's welfare reforms were so important and so effective. You have yet to acknowledge that. Most democrats just ignore that because it ruins their argument.

    One more time, I am NOT trying to deny healthcare to any citizen. Most who object are not suggesting we deny healthcare to people. We don't deny them now, generally speaking. If someone with no insurance goes to the emergency room, they will get treated. They might have to go to a specific hospital that gets govt funding, but they WILL get help. And if they show up at my house, I will help them. Repeat, I am NOT suggesting that people don't need healthcare, or that we should keep it from them. I'm suggesting there are ways to accomplish that, and the current plan isn't one of them. I'd love to be wrong. Because I don't want to saddle my kids and grand kids with any more debt than we already have...
  5. #185  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Truth... he tells the truth!!!!

    Republicans should have came out with a plan... then maybe we can compare and contrast. Instead, all we have is hot air...

    Republican: I don't like obama's plan. I know we need a plan, but I don't have anything to offer. I know, it is socialism.
    They came out with lots of plans. They weren't allowed to debate them because they don't control that in the current balance of power.

    They suggested things like allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines. Tort reform so that snakes like John Edwards don't become zillionaires by suing the pants off doctors and hospitals. Ironic that he is about to be indicted..

    Heck, if you took that $1trillion and gave it directly to the hospitals that currently treat the uninsured, you would MORE than solve the problem without one ounce additional govt job. That's the point. If you start with the assumption that the solution starts with the federal govt, then it is easy to point the finger and say "come up with something besides the word no".

    Well, they have. Let them debate it and introduce it. check the record. It hasn't been allowed. I'm pretty sure you and I could come up with something better than either party. Let's just not fall in to the trap of starting with assumptions that the federal govt needs to get bigger to solve the problem. I hope that's not how you run your personal budget. You can't spend your way to prosperity, and you cant afford to help anyone if all your money goes to pay loans and taxes.

    Let's quit repeating the rhetoric from either party, and actually solve the problem.
  6. #186  
    Let's quit repeating the rhetoric from either party, and actually solve the problem.
    Agree 100 pct.

    Someone call James Carville, cause 2 people just got PWNED!!
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  7. #187  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    They came out with lots of plans. They weren't allowed to debate them because they don't control that in the current balance of power.
    You have GOT to be kidding.

    So they owned nothing for 8 years while Bush was in office?

    Sorry, but either you don't have a clue, or you think people here are stupid.

    That is some funny stuff... you don't need control of anything to introduced a plan. They have introduced a plan... it was 250 pages of worthless nothingness. Read it, I have.

    When I asked your republican counterparts on this forum about it, at least they are honest and plainly state that the republicans have nothing... and keep it moving.

    They suggested things like allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines. Tort reform so that snakes like John Edwards don't become zillionaires by suing the pants off doctors and hospitals. Ironic that he is about to be indicted.
    Snake? Soon as you need a lawyer, all will be snakes, except the one helping you. Another comment about something you know nothing about.

    Heck, if you took that $1trillion and gave it directly to the hospitals that currently treat the uninsured, you would MORE than solve the problem without one ounce additional govt job.
    Fuzzy math... but that is okay. Keep it simple, I guess. Whatever...

    Well, they have. Let them debate it and introduce it. check the record. It hasn't been allowed.
    BS. You check the record. It was allowed and parts are in the current bill. What I saying is that the Republicans should have came up with their own plan outside of this one. Something that we could ask either or.

    I'm pretty sure you and I could come up with something better than either party.
    No, I'm pretty sure you could not. I don't have time... that is why I let these people work for me.

    Let's just not fall in to the trap of starting with assumptions that the federal govt needs to get bigger to solve the problem.
    Right.

    I hope that's not how you run your personal budget. You can't spend your way to prosperity, and you cant afford to help anyone if all your money goes to pay loans and taxes.
    I've already killed that argument in another thread.



    Let's quit repeating the rhetoric from either party, and actually solve the problem.
    We are... but we have a couple of losers getting in the way.

    Seriously, I still don't think this will solve the problem. Actually, no one knows yet... we have not read the darn thing. At least I've not... due to my schedule, doubt if I will this weekend or even next week.

    Bottom line is that the Dems are attempting to solve the problem... but will be a good step. Oh, but now, all of a sudden, the Republicans want to "solve the problem." The Republicans did not see the problem until obama made it one....

    Do you honestly thing the republicans will make an honest effort towards healthcare reform? I don't think so. Sell that line to someone in K-12.
    Last edited by theog; 03/18/2010 at 07:41 PM.
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  8. #188  
    by the way, didn't mean
    'dont worry about the details'.

    I meant not to focus too much on my examples. They were intended to be discussion points, not iron clad research upon which to create public policy. Jest examples to illustrate a point.

    I agree, the details matter, absolutely!
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 09:10 PM.
  9. #189  
    you think they only 'saw the problem' because obama showed them? You need to repeat k - 12 while I am selling to them.

    this debate on public healthcare goes back to Truman.

    and ted kennedy made it his life mission starting in the sixtiess. Giveme a break. And hilllary spent bill's first term working the issue. Did obama show it to them? Wow.

    ps. My rants are sorter when I type them on my Pre like this one. My thumbs are already sore!
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 09:11 PM.
  10. #190  
    you aren't listening. I have been equally critical of bush and republicans. I have renounced them both.

    I have renounced the morons in the video. Could you possilly acknowledge that?
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 09:12 PM.
  11. #191  
    and if you think they work for you... That's silly. You would fire anyone as dishonest and incompetent as congress, in both parties. See what I did there? I included republicans in my criticism. Did you see that?

    and if you are too busy to stop them from banrupting the country_ I repsectfully request that you loosen up your schedule.
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 09:12 PM.
  12. #192  
    I thought this was a friendly discussion. It is starting to sound nasty. You take a breath and relax while I get back to a PC and a full size keyboard. I can't do this on my phone. Stand by for that.

    also what do you do for a living? Do you work in a hospital?
    Last edited by Cantaffordit; 03/18/2010 at 09:12 PM.
  13. #193  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    and if you think they work for you... That's silly. You would fire anyine as dishonest and incompetent as congress, in both parties. See what I did there? I included republicans in my ceiticism. Did you see that?

    and if you are too busy to stop them from banrupting the country_ I repsectfully request that you loosen up your schedule.
    The problem is that I also put fire under dems... and rep... I don't care... I vote both ways. Friend of mine is considering a run as a Rep... I'll be right there holding up signs... known him since 1995... great guy. Don't agree with all his policies, but we agree more than disagree.

    Problem is that I support both sides...

    Gun control: I don't like (but state rights - not federal)
    Abortion: should be choice
    Gay marriage: Should allow (but state rights - not federal)

    Problem I see with the rep is that they are not doing much but blowing hot air. They complain about reconciliation when they have used it countless times. Now it is unconstitutional. GMAFB. But I guess we will wrap it up in some type of reasoning that makes sense.. like, oh, but our stuff was not this big... okay.

    I'm a bit mad since the rep, IMO, were not more forceful dealing with the issue. Mention Ted Kennedy... don't you think he would have voted for ANYTHING offering those without health care, health care???? Republicans could have passed something... or could have introduced something... but oh, no.
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  14. #194  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    and if you think they work for you... That's silly. You would fire anyine as dishonest and incompetent as congress, in both parties. See what I did there? I included republicans in my ceiticism. Did you see that?

    and if you are too busy to stop them from banrupting the country_ I repsectfully request that you loosen up your schedule.
    You wrap everyone in congress as being dishonest and incompetent. Do you personally know all of them? I know a couple... I don't think they are dishonest or incompetent... but then they are fine, until they do something stupid or something I don't like.

    Yes, I have to believe they work for me... I vote for that reason... I vote them in to work for me... if I did not believe they worked for me, why would I vote? What would be the reason to go out my way and stand in line? Sorry, I'm grown... Grown thinking here...

    I did meet a politician the other day who was impeached by the House.... well saw him....

    Oh, now they are bankrupting the country. LOL... and what would happen if we do nothing???
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  15. #195  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    I thought this was a friendly discussion. It is starting to sound nasty. You take a breath and relax while I get back to a PC and a full size keyboard. I can't to this on my phone. Stand by for that.
    Not nasty... just getting tired of reading your pages and pages of rants (as you call them) that put out bad info... guesses.

    also what do you do for a living? Do you work in a hospital?
    I'm going to tell my mommy you are asking personal questions.

    Actually, don't worry about the keyboard... I'm done here...

    Time to do some work. Plus, DAthomas, the moderator, keeps harassing me in PM
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  16. #196  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    You wrap everyone in congress as being dishonest and incompetent. Do you personally know all of them? I know a couple... I don't think they are dishonest or incompetent... but then they are fine, until they do something stupid or something I don't like.

    Yes, I have to believe they work for me... I vote for that reason... I vote them in to work for me... if I did not believe they worked for me, why would I vote? What would be the reason to go out my way and stand in line? Sorry, I'm grown... Grown thinking here...

    I did meet a politician the other day who was impeached by the House.... well saw him....

    Oh, now they are bankrupting the country. LOL... and what would happen if we do nothing???
    you are right that I made a sweeping generality about everyone in congress. I apologize. I SHOULD have said that most of them appear to be incompetent and dishonest. Based on their results and the stuff we see them do, I don't need to know them to believe them to be idiots. But I shouldn't have said they all are. I stand corrected.

    And if you don't believe they work for you, that's all the MORE reason to vote. Voting is how you hire and fire them. I'm planning to work on firing a lot of politicians in the next election.

    What would happen if we did nothing? We've seen examples of that. The govt was shut down due to a budget impasse when Clinton was in office. The sun still came up. Unfortunately, his pants came down. He could have been a great president...
  17. #197  
    OK theog. Before I respond to your request for specifics, you owe me an acknowledgement on several items. I have complimented Clinton and Gore, I have criticized both Bushes, I have renounced the fools in that video, and I have been equally critical of both parties. You kept challenging people to denounce, etc. I heard you reference grown up thinking. Well, the grown up thing to do is acknowledge when you are wrong (as I did in the post above) and acknowledge when someone steps up to your challenge. You owe that, and it will give me a few minutes to figure out how to treat someone in an emergency room that decides not to have insurance... :-)

    And, please tell me what you do for work. You said you need to know what to do tomorrow. I want to know what that means...
  18. #198  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    Show me where a govt entitlement has improved things. If Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc had been effective, then there wouldn't be a health care crisis.
    Given the popularity of those programs, I'd say that those assisted by Medicare, Medicaid and SS would strongly disagree with you. I wish that those elected officials who are so vehemently protesting that point that "government entitlements never improve anything" would simply propose that these programs be eliminated.

    Is it your position that we should just do away with them?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  19. #199  
    Quote Originally Posted by Cantaffordit View Post
    OK theog. Before I respond to your request for specifics, you owe me an acknowledgement on several items. I have complimented Clinton and Gore, I have criticized both Bushes, I have renounced the fools in that video, and I have been equally critical of both parties. You kept challenging people to denounce, etc. I heard you reference grown up thinking. Well, the grown up thing to do is acknowledge when you are wrong (as I did in the post above) and acknowledge when someone steps up to your challenge. You owe that, and it will give me a few minutes to figure out how to treat someone in an emergency room that decides not to have insurance... :-)

    And, please tell me what you do for work. You said you need to know what to do tomorrow. I want to know what that means...
    Actually it was davidra who asked what he should do tomorrow. He's a doctor.

    theog doesnt share that type of info.

    I for one am enjoying your posts. Keep it up.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  20. #200  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Given the popularity of those programs, I'd say that those assisted by Medicare, Medicaid and SS would strongly disagree with you. I wish that those elected officials who are so vehemently protesting that point that "government entitlements never improve anything" would simply propose that these programs be eliminated.

    Is it your position that we should just do away with them?
    Now in my college logic course, we learned that is called a false choice. Nice try.

    Of course you can't eliminate the programs now. That's why we want to prevent them from creating more programs like that.

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