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  1. groovy's Avatar
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    #21  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I completely agree but minus the sarcasm.
    Does that mean yo agree with the assessment or just the tactic?
  2. groovy's Avatar
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    #22  
    Quote Originally Posted by jjeffcoat View Post
    So disagreement with the current administration's policies constitutes "rage"?
    The stage is, indeed, being set. The Democrats will try to link the Republicans and/or Tea Partiers, tax-evaders, birthers, proofers, people who fly planes into buildings, neo-****s and racists in general, and garden variety conspiracy theorists. No differences need to be made between any of the preceding. They are all the same voting bloc.
  3. #23  
    Fair enough. So is there any rage on the left, or is it strictly a right-wing phenomenon?
  4.    #24  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I was speaking of Paul and the Wal-Mart greeter reference. Can you tell us what, specifically, were the similarities you noticed between the Nuremberg rallies and the CPAC conference?
    am I sensing some particular sensitivity regarding Paul ??

    The Walmart greeter description was just a flippant phrase that captured for me how innocuous this elderly man seemed on his way to the podium. A modest Walmart greeter, who was nevertheless the object of idolatrous, tearful worship.

    There were no outward similarities between Nuremberg and CPAC -- no columns of sky pointing search lights, no massed armies of CPAC youth in formation.

    My intent in referencing the Nuremberg rallies was to capture some of the mindless factless rage that animated the people at CPAC -- sentiments probably not too very different from those at Nuremberg.

    (Beck BTW, was not alone in comparing progressives to N*zis).
    Last edited by BARYE; 02/21/2010 at 04:29 PM.
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  5. groovy's Avatar
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    #25  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    am I sensing some particular sensitivity regarding Paul ??
    Just pointing out that your tactic was recognized.

    The Walmart greeter description was just a flippant phrase that captured for me how innocuous this elderly man seemed on his way to the podium. A modest Walmart greeter, who was nevertheless the object of idolatrous, tearful worship.
    I wonder how the same characterization would have been taken in reference to the current rock-star-in-chief.

    There were no outward similarities between Nuremberg and CPAC -- no columns of sky pointing search lights, no massed armies of CPAC youth in formation.

    My intent in referencing the Nuremberg rallies was to capture some of the mindless factless rage that animated the people at CPAC -- sentiments probably not too very different from those at Nuremberg.
    And sentiments not too different than those at any political rally. Wouldn't you say? There were more than a few messianic allusions at last year's Democratic rallies.

    (Beck BTW, was not alone in comparing progressives to N*zis).
    I wish everyone would lay off the national socialist analogies. However, having just witnessed 8 years of conservative-bashing hyperbole, you'll forgive me if I don't feel overly sympathetic towards progressives labeled as "N*zis".
  6. #26  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    I'd rather entrust the government of the United States to the first 400 people listed in the Boston telephone directory than to the faculty of Harvard University.
    --William F. Buckley, Jr.--
    Noted Author, Founder and Publisher of National Review, and Intellectual
    Keep in mind that that would be the same William F Buckley Jr who denounced the John Birch Society over 40 years ago for the same type of tactics that Glenn Beck and the like are using today.

    Except nowadays, things are so different that the same John Birch Society is now sponsoring CPAC.

    Buckley was another like I mentioned earlier that I would disagree almost entirely with, but still respected for having well-reasoned positions and would love if there was a new leader like him on the right. (Don't get me wrong, I still wouldn't want him to get elected, but at least it'd raise the level of discourse a bit. )
  7. #27  
    hey I just noticed no one said anything about how the right is racist, what happened? I'm confused, now the left is saying it's ok with disagreeing with someones political beliefs???? Something has changed finally.
  8. #28  
    Forgive me for asking such a ridiculous question. I am only trying to help you not seem like a clown.

    Who is this "junior?"

    Has everyone read the Federalist papers?

    *kisses*
  9.    #29  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    ...I wonder how the same characterization would have been taken in reference to the current rock-star-in-chief.
    exactly -- no one would confuse Obama with a Walmart greeter -- he has a commanding presence -- friendly, approachable, yet authoritative.

    Not even the right pretends that he's uninformed or uneducated.

    Images are not necessarily wrong -- they are a shortcut that sometimes communicates a deeper truth. Supporters of Palin for example, believe fervently in the image of the (ersatz) homespun Wasila Mum with small town values. They think that they understand her more because of her image than what she says or her policy formulations.


    And sentiments not too different than those at any political rally. Wouldn't you say? There were more than a few messianic allusions at last year's Democratic rallies.
    The crowds were passionate, energized at Obama's rallies. The had Utopian visions of a world fairer, where wealth and power would be distributed in balanced way, where getting medical care would not be predicated on wealth or the whim of an insurance company.

    (Crowds that were clearly delusional.)

    Obama though, was rigorous in making speeches that never incited his supporters in any kind of demagogic way.


    I wish everyone would lay off the national socialist analogies. However, having just witnessed 8 years of conservative-bashing hyperbole, you'll forgive me if I don't feel overly sympathetic towards progressives labeled as "N*zis".
    I never heard junior described as a national socialist -- I certainly never used those words.

    I did hear him accurately called ignorant, il-informed, anti-intellectual, and dishonest.
    Last edited by BARYE; 02/21/2010 at 06:39 PM.
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  10. #30  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    The rage to which I refer is something emotional, irrational -- based on fear and ignorance -- not facts, not actual history.
    So says you....good grief....you're a liberal, why would you even admit to understanding it?

    I will admit to not hearing all of Beck's speech at CPAC, but what I did see, and what I have heard on his show, is he says both parties have issues with spending too much money. How anyone today cannot agree with that is either still on the Obama love train or just not living in reality (actully, the Obama love train is not reality either).

    I saw an interview with the new NJ Governor last week and as he said the supposed tough job in the past in his state was raising taxes to keep up with spending increases. Now, the tough job is actually cutting spending. Not sure when folks will understand this on a National basis. It just continually amazes me how the answer to everything by the left is to increase taxes on the evil wealthy folks. That isn't the answer. It does nothing other than require further tax increases later. The answer is to cut spending and let the private sector hang onto their money and create jobs that last longer than a road project.
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  11.    #31  
    Quote Originally Posted by toyotast165 View Post
    hey I just noticed no one said anything about how the right is racist, what happened? I'm confused, now the left is saying it's ok with disagreeing with someones political beliefs???? Something has changed finally.
    I neither heard nor saw any evidence of racism.

    Though Black participation was extremely low, it was not negligible, and it was greater than I expected. The Black attendees I met seemed upper middle class or better, and were exceptionally popular at the convention and at after parties.

    (even monkeys were greeted with some forbearance, if not enthusiasm -- perhaps my presence was too much a challenge to their misguided views of evolution...)

    Though there are certainly parts of the right who continue to be racist -- I think the real divide is one of class not race. The right genuinely loves Black conservatives who reenforce their world view.
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  12. #32  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I neither heard nor saw any evidence of racism.

    Though Black participation was extremely low, it was not negligible, and it was greater than I expected. The Black attendees I met seemed upper middle class or better, and were exceptionally popular at the convention and at after parties.

    (even monkeys were greeted with some forbearance, if not enthusiasm -- perhaps my presence was too much a challenge to their misguided views of evolution...)

    Though there are certainly parts of the right who continue to be racist -- I think the real divide is one of class not race. The right genuinely loves Black conservatives who reenforce their world view.
    Forever the race card.
    Even a stupid monkey should know that racism doesn't have a political party.
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  13.    #33  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Forever the race card.
    Even a stupid monkey should know that racism doesn't have a political party.
    Woof, Woof, Woof my friend -- why must you try to hurt BARYE so ??

    Your poor demented monkey was only trying to be kind to conservatives -- only making the generous observation that they are, for the most part NOT racist -- that they care more about class than ethnic origin (though their specist tendencies is clearly another topic entirely....)
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  14. #34  
    Anybody that broadcast ignorance to millions of listeners/followers is dangerous. But, Beck may be realizing some behind the scenes workings and changing his stance. He's still an A-hole like OReilley.

    But, Ron Paul is my dude. One of the only cats that turns his government check back over to the treasury cause he say he doesn't need it. He already has a profession that pays him. Unlike most of his fellow greedy party members.
  15. #35  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post

    My intent in referencing the Nuremberg rallies was to capture some of the mindless factless rage that animated the people at CPAC -- sentiments probably not too very different from those at Nuremberg.
    Mindless, factless rage?

    Well I believe that the base of this "rage" directed @ both parties is the national debt, started under bush, along with the government bailouts. via U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time, the national debt is now $12.4T, that's $40k per citizen.

    With regard to the spending, which started under Bush. If my home ever got into financial trouble, my solution would not be to max out the credit cards & continue living above my means. This approach is what our government has taken.

    In regards to the bailouts, they are just simply un-American. Nothing in this country is "too big to fail". The idea that wall street, at the behest of the gov't, engaged in risky/stupid behavior and then when the ****** hit the fan, was rescued by the taxpayer is un-American. Then on top of everything they cont'd to give out exorbitant bonuses while many americans suffered to make ends meet.

    People/businesses should be allowed to fail. And when they do fail they shouldn't have to rely on the gov't for help. We are Americans & should be there to help our fellow Americans pick up the pieces & rebuild.
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #36  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    exactly -- no one would confuse Obama with a Walmart greeter -- he has a commanding presence -- friendly, approachable, yet authoritative.

    Not even the right pretends that he's uninformed or uneducated.
    So you admit that the Wal-Mart greeter comparison was about more than just Paul's unassuming demeanor. Good, now we're getting somewhere. But, I can't imagine that anyone would think Paul is either uneducated or uninformed. You may disagree with his policies, but you can't deny that he's one of the most educated potential candidates. That said, it doesn't seem likely that your comparison was accidental. Nor does it seem likely that it meant to be anything but a slight to Dr. Paul and to paint him as either uneducated or the leader of the uneducated.

    The crowds were passionate, energized at Obama's rallies. The had Utopian visions of a world fairer, where wealth and power would be distributed in balanced way, where getting medical care would not be predicated on wealth or the whim of an insurance company.

    (Crowds that were clearly delusional.)

    Obama though, was rigorous in making speeches that never incited his supporters in any kind of demagogic way.
    No, not at all. No demagoguery . You were in the country, or at least by a television, during the campaigns weren't you? I have to ask because your view of history seems pretty skewed to say the least. Perhaps you're vying to be Zinn's replacement, I don't know.


    I never heard junior described as a national socialist -- I certainly never used those words
    I like that, "never used those words"; plausible deniability. But you most certainly have heard him being referred to as someone whose first name was Adolf. It was not only said repeatedly, there were bumper-stickers and tee-shirts made with the slogan "Bush=******"
  17.    #37  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    So you admit that the Wal-Mart greeter comparison was about more than just Paul's unassuming demeanor. Good, now we're getting somewhere. But, I can't imagine that anyone would think Paul is either uneducated or uninformed. You may disagree with his policies, but you can't deny that he's one of the most educated potential candidates. That said, it doesn't seem likely that your comparison was accidental. Nor does it seem likely that it meant to be anything but a slight to Dr. Paul and to paint him as either uneducated or the leader of the uneducated.
    I don't think him uneducated -- and I don't recall saying otherwise. Nor do I think his supporters are -- which is one of the reasons I find them both so fascinating and scary. When I get around to writing my Pt. 3: economic anarchy -- I'll probably have more to say about this ...



    No, not at all. No demagoguery . You were in the country, or at least by a television, during the campaigns weren't you? I have to ask because your view of history seems pretty skewed to say the least. Perhaps you're vying to be Zinn's replacement, I don't know.
    As you probably know, he just died, so I should say something briefly about him.

    When I met Zinn it was before I knew who he was. I learned later that he was the author of a well respected book called the People's History of America.

    Zinn was an influential intellectual influence on the left. After the screening of the new documentary: "The Most Dangerous Man in America" that I wrote about last week, Daniel Ellsberg spoke about how important an influence Zinn had been on him.


    I like that, "never used those words"; plausible deniability. But you most certainly have heard him being referred to as someone whose first name was Adolf. It was not only said repeatedly, there were bumper-stickers and tee-shirts made with the slogan "Bush=******"

    a strawEastwood rebuttal ...
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  18. Micael's Avatar
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    #38  
    Ok, Barye.... what exactly did Beck say that's dangerous? How about wrong or factually incorrect?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #39  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, Barye.... what exactly did Beck say that's dangerous? How about wrong or factually incorrect?
    PolitiFact | All statements involving Glenn Beck

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    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/cash-for-clunkers/
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  20. solarus's Avatar
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    #40  
    I too try to stay away from the political threads but this thread does highlight some major problems with politics today - issues that aren't really related to right or left but to the complete disregard each side has for the other and the manner in which politics has become dominated by the extremes of both sides.

    Simply put in the terms of this thread...Glen Beck is a tool but that doesn't make some of his points invalid. On the other side of the equation, Bill Maher is also a tool but that doesn't mean some of his points aren't valid either. The problem is that we tend to focus on the "toolness" of the messenger not the message itself. Take healthcare. I think its clear given the 2008 election that a great many independent minded voters were for the idea of over-hauling healthcare, but because the extremes dominate politics the Democrats took the election of Barack Obama and their increased majority in Congress to mean that they could push through an expensive over-reaching plan and the right naturally responded with the an extreme laze-faire economic response. That's all well and good if some movement happens between the two sides and a decent bill results but when neither side wants to give in and instead prefers to rant and rave about the other side being power-hungry or heartless it becomes extremely difficult to make any progress.

    Some extremism may have been evident at the CPAC last week (clearly the young 'uns like Ron Paul), but that doesn't mean the ideas of the Republican Party don't deserve some credit. As an example, I'm not at all in favor of Ron Paul's ideas of withdrawing inward but maybe the reasons why the Ron Pauls of the country want to withdraw need to be examined. Perhaps some of the benefits of withdrawing could be realized in another more realistic manner?

    Of course we'll never know because as the late Richard Jeni said so well...

    the right are "a bunch of money grubbing, green house gassing, seal clubbing, oil drilling, bible thumping, missile firing, right-to-lifing, lethal injecting hypocrites!

    and...

    the left are "a bunch of bong smoking, America bashing, flag burning, yoga posing, incense burning, dolphin saving, salmon eating hypocrites!"
    Last edited by solarus; 02/22/2010 at 01:17 PM.
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