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  1. #101  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Its really pretty lame to politicize this event for the purpose of painting a group that you disagree with, wouldn't you agree? Isn't what you're saying along the lines of, "He was a teabagger, he was a maniac, ergo, teabaggers are maniacs"?
    I've not said he was involved in the tea parties, and in fact stated more than once that I wasn't connecting him to the tea party. Nor am I saying that teabaggers (hate that term, by the by) are maniacs. All three of my brothers are aligned with tea party philosophies.

    I merely state that many on the extreme right are labeling him a hero due to the fact that his written views align with their preconceived rage against the government.

    What I'm saying is "he was irrationally angry at the government", "some members of conservative politics and media are consciously stoking people towards increased anger and fear", "the response to such fear-mongering and incitement of violence is that irrational people feel justified in their actions", "making Stack a martyr further emboldens the maniacs" and "more events like this can happen if it continues".

    I'm not politicizing Stack, he already has been thoroughly politicized. However, I can't help but note that you didn't object when others stated that he liked Obama, supported the health care bill...etc. Nor did you object when Amy Bishop was described as being pro-Obama, and tying her act into her politics. You aren't objecting to politicizing murderers, unless it's against your own political leanings. Why is that?
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/19/2010 at 04:04 PM.
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  2. #102  
    Quote Originally Posted by beerbatteredben View Post
    I was making a reference to 1984.
    Ah, the latter then.
  3. #103  
    Let's all remember to direct our hate at the correct group.

    We wouldn't want to disagree with our government.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #104  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I merely state that many on the extreme right are labeling him a hero due to the fact that his written views align with their preconceived rage against the government.
    This may be true. We both know that such a claim is ridiculous in the extreme.
    What I'm saying is "he was irrationally angry at the government", "some members of conservative politics and media are consciously stoking people towards increased anger and fear", "the response to such fear-mongering and incitement of violence is that irrational people feel justified in their actions", "making Stack a martyr further emboldens the maniacs" and "more events like this can happen if it continues".
    Much like the liberals stoked anger and fear in people while Bush was in office?
    I'm not politicizing Stack, he already has been thoroughly politicized.
    By whom?
    However, I can't help but note that you didn't object when others stated that he liked Obama, supported the health care bill...etc. Nor did you object when Amy Bishop was described as being pro-Obama, and tying her act into her politics. You aren't objecting to politicizing murderers, unless it's against your own political leanings. Why is that?
    Am I hearing that you're assuming I'm a teabagger? I'm not. Nor do I disagree with them.... I honestly don't know enough about them yet.

    But to your point, I would in fact object to painting any political group based on the isolated actions of some nutcase. You seem to forget that, based on the issue, I'm in different "camps".
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. #105  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Much like the liberals stoked anger and fear in people while Bush was in office?
    Stoking anger at policies, certainly. But I don't recall any of the liberals claiming that our administration would kill their grandmothers or disabled children. No talk of death panels, or death camps run by FEMA. There wasn't talk of hanging political candidates, or assassinating public figures.

    Politics is a rough game - I get that. But striking fear in the elderly, and promoting these messages of racism, etc.? I'm sorry, but this tone has gotten out of hand, and I believe it's dangerous. It's not analogous to prior climates, and it's disingenuous to say that it is.


    By whom?
    search Twitter for "joe stack hero", for starters.

    Am I hearing that you're assuming I'm a teabagger? I'm not. Nor do I disagree with them.... I honestly don't know enough about them yet.
    No. Just that you pick and choose areas in which you choose to criticize. Politicizing Stack at a teabagger is wrong, but as a liberal...not so much. Politicizing Amy Bishop...okay as well. It's conveniently inconsistent.

    But to your point, I would in fact object to painting any political group based on the isolated actions of some nutcase.
    Great - I'll look forward to seeing you object to conservative posts as well as mine, then. Thanks!
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/19/2010 at 04:42 PM.
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  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #106  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    Stoking anger at policies, certainly. But I don't recall any of the liberals claiming that our administration would kill their grandmothers or disabled children. No talk of death panels, or death camps run by FEMA.
    Sure, different topics, same tactics? How about killing innocent Iraqis civilians just for oil? Taking away our privacy? Lying so we can go to war?
    search Twitter for "joe stack hero", for starters.
    I'm afraid to, to be honest :P
    No. Just that you pick and choose areas in which you choose to criticize.
    Jeez Bujin, don't we all?
    Politicizing Stack at a teabagger is wrong, but as a liberal...not so much. Politicizing Amy Bishop...okay as well. It's conveniently inconsistent.
    I didn't. I raised her as an example of someone who wasn't politicized. Maybe we're out of sync with each other here. Or maybe it's just me, but I don't think you understood my point. It really was that ANY politicization of nutbags is bad. You keep coming back at me.... I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.
    Great - I'll look forward to seeing you object to conservative posts as well as mine, then. Thanks!
    You don't have to look forward. Look back at some of the older threads. Gay marriage comes to mind. I'm a strong proponent. I'm certainly not a religious person, and I don't agree with most conservatives that this country was founded on Christianity.

    Wouldn't you agree that these go against the conservative vein?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  7. #107  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Sure, different topics, same tactics? How about killing innocent Iraqis civilians just for oil? Taking away our privacy? Lying so we can go to war?
    One can point to specific evidence for arguments about taking away privacy and lying about going to war. I'm not saying that we all can agree it's compelling, but that's very different than killing grandma, or concentration camps, or denying health care to conservatives.

    I'm sorry, but I don't think the tactics are the same - there's a difference between honest policy disagreements, even if heated, and making stuff up. We won't agree on it, and that's okay. But I truly believe that there wasn't an element of inciting people towards violence that political and media figures are currently engaging in.

    I didn't. I raised her as an example of someone who wasn't politicized. Maybe we're out of sync with each other here. Or maybe it's just me, but I don't think you understood my point. It really was that ANY politicization of nutbags is bad. You keep coming back at me.... I'm sorry if I'm not being clear.
    To be clear, I wasn't accusing you of politicizing Amy Bishop, but others have done so in this thread. I was merely pointing out that you didn't object to it, while accusing me of doing so regarding Stack by mangling my statements to make it seem that I called all tea partiers maniacs....an accusation that I took issue with.

    I'm not angry about it, and I apologize if you felt I was pushing back.

    You don't have to look forward. Look back at some of the older threads. Gay marriage comes to mind. I'm a strong proponent. I'm certainly not a religious person, and I don't agree with most conservatives that this country was founded on Christianity.

    Wouldn't you agree that these go against the conservative vein?
    I'm not casting any aspersions on your political positions. I think you're a bright guy and don't think that you espouse a down-the-line alignment with a specific party.
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/19/2010 at 05:29 PM.
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  8. #108  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    I think this poll, by FoxNews, of all things, says a lot:


    It shows a web poll that has most likely been hit with an automated script or an embedded link sent out some SPAM. Web based polls are not considered to be scientific and can be easily skewed.
  9. #109  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    And is that the case here? Please tell me. A lease is far different than renting a plane for a few hours. A lease also requires paying for a slot at the local airport no?

    Non of which is cheap.
    Lease? Now youre talking lease? Just because someone in this thread said he leased the plane. Do any fact checking?

    And no owning a plane is not that expensive. I used to have one. Beechcraft Bonanza. Only paid 9000 for it. Stored it at a friends house who had a private airstrip. Big deal.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  10. #110  
    Woof indeed.

    How many Germans do you have to kill before they let those words fly.

    No doublethink.
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    #111  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Lease? Now youre talking lease? Just because someone in this thread said he leased the plane. Do any fact checking?

    And no owning a plane is not that expensive. I used to have one. Beechcraft Bonanza. Only paid 9000 for it. Stored it at a friends house who had a private airstrip. Big deal.
    $9000 for a Bonanza?? Did it actually fly? If you find any more of those, let me know!
  12. #112  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    $9000 for a Bonanza?? Did it actually fly? If you find any more of those, let me know!
    It has to fly? I thought we were talking ownership.

    Yes it flew. Was so cheap because the guy was desperate for money. Bought so I could get my license. Never did though, ended up selling it.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  13. #113  
    Quote Originally Posted by beerbatteredben View Post
    Woof indeed.

    How many Germans do you have to kill before they let those words fly.

    No doublethink.
    What?
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  14. #114  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Lease? Now youre talking lease? Just because someone in this thread said he leased the plane. Do any fact checking?

    And no owning a plane is not that expensive. I used to have one. Beechcraft Bonanza. Only paid 9000 for it. Stored it at a friends house who had a private airstrip. Big deal.
    I have seen nothing in any reporting to suggest anything other than the person owned the plane. The only place I have seen "rented" or "leased" has been in this thread. If you have any validation of either please cite.

    Show me that this person stored this plane at a "friends place".

    Just obtaining a pilots license is an expensive item.

    Why are you arguing these facts?
  15. #115  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    What?
    Exactly.
  16. #116  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    What?
    I thought we were having a who can make the least sense contest.
  17. #117  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I have seen nothing in any reporting to suggest anything other than the person owned the plane. The only place I have seen "rented" or "leased" has been in this thread. If you have any validation of either please cite.

    Show me that this person stored this plane at a "friends place".

    Just obtaining a pilots license is an expensive item.

    Why are you arguing these facts?
    Sometimes...

    You said
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I find it very difficult to believe that a person who owns their own plane can equate themselves to the "poor and oppressed". This guy seemed to be of the ilk that tried any loophole they could to avoid paying their share of taxes and kept doing so digging himself deeper and deeper.
    which got this reply
    Quote Originally Posted by mayo1024 View Post
    It wasn't owned it was leased. He rented it.
    and you said
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    Ah, forgive me. That makes it so much more affordable.
    which made clem say
    Quote Originally Posted by clemgrad85 View Post
    Really...geez...not much difference between buying a plane and renting a plane for a couple of hours. That is such a minor point. I mean, not everyone can afford a $1000 to rent a plane and I doubt his family will get back any deposit....so he must have been a very wealthy person.
    and I said
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    There are places where you can rent a small plane for a few hours or days if you are a licensed pilot and meet the criteria.
    Get a grip.
    which just happens to be information, not a judgment of the situation.
    And that made you say
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    And is that the case here? Please tell me. A lease is far different than renting a plane for a few hours. A lease also requires paying for a slot at the local airport no?

    Non of which is cheap.
    I don't know if that's the case here. I didn't specify that. And yes leasing is different than renting for a few hours, but my point was you don't have to be rich to get a plane. Sorry I didn't make it simple enough for you. I realize this post
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Lease? Now youre talking lease? Just because someone in this thread said he leased the plane. Do any fact checking?

    And no owning a plane is not that expensive. I used to have one. Beechcraft Bonanza. Only paid 9000 for it. Stored it at a friends house who had a private airstrip. Big deal.
    wasn't so clear. It seemed to me that you shifted from Stack owning a plane to leasing one. Or at least excepting what mayo said as fact. I see that may not have been the case now.
    Then we get
    Quote Originally Posted by beerbatteredben View Post
    Woof indeed.

    How many Germans do you have to kill before they let those words fly.

    No doublethink.
    Followed by
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    What?
    and then
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    I have seen nothing in any reporting to suggest anything other than the person owned the plane. The only place I have seen "rented" or "leased" has been in this thread. If you have any validation of either please cite.

    Show me that this person stored this plane at a "friends place".

    Just obtaining a pilots license is an expensive item.

    Why are you arguing these facts?
    I explained my misunderstanding of the lease thing above. My friends place comment was simply information about MY PLANE. You know that. As to the pilot license, define expensive.
    What facts am I arguing? I didn't say Stack didn't own his plane. I didn't say he leased it. I didn't saw he stored it at a friends.
    and then
    Quote Originally Posted by beerbatteredben View Post
    I thought we were having a who can make the least sense contest.
    I'll have to concede, Ben you win. I am still trying to figure the "German" thing.
    “There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order.”
    — Ed Howdershelt
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have."- Thomas Jefferson
  18. #118  
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    Sometimes...

    You said

    which got this reply

    and you said

    which made clem say

    and I said
    which just happens to be information, not a judgment of the situation.
    And that made you say
    I don't know if that's the case here. I didn't specify that. And yes leasing is different than renting for a few hours, but my point was you don't have to be rich to get a plane. Sorry I didn't make it simple enough for you. I realize this post

    wasn't so clear. It seemed to me that you shifted from Stack owning a plane to leasing one. Or at least excepting what mayo said as fact. I see that may not have been the case now.
    Then we get

    Followed by

    and then
    I explained my misunderstanding of the lease thing above. My friends place comment was simply information about MY PLANE. You know that. As to the pilot license, define expensive.
    What facts am I arguing? I didn't say Stack didn't own his plane. I didn't say he leased it. I didn't saw he stored it at a friends.
    and then
    I'll have to concede, Ben you win. I am still trying to figure the "German" thing.
    So I'm back to my original comment, someone who owns a plane can't whine about paying their fair share of taxes.
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    #119  
    Quote Originally Posted by daThomas View Post
    So I'm back to my original comment, someone who owns a plane can't whine about paying their fair share of taxes.
    except that people who are able to own an airplane probably pay more than their "fair share."
  20. #120  
    Quote Originally Posted by angiest View Post
    except that people who are able to own an airplane probably pay more than their "fair share."
    Isn't the point of Stack's troubles that he got caught not paying at all? Hardly his "fair share".
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