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  1.    #1  
    Hello everyone. There have been times when discussions in other off-topic discussions have diverged into whether God exists and why some people take a "leap of faith" while others find the whole idea counter-productive (at best) or hogwash (at worst). In order to help keep other threads more on-topic, I'm starting this thread as a place where any of us who want to follow those sorts of discussions can do so without bothering others.

    As I get time (I'll try and update this first post with pointers to other threads/posts.) If you want to PM me, with any you find, I'll be happy to add pointers to those here.

    thanks everyone, -- Bob

    SELECTED RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THREAD (work in progress)

    Arguments for Existence of God
    1. Peter Kreeft talk on Five Arguments for God's Existence
    2. Kreeft - webpage - Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God
    3. Anselm of Canterbury's ontological argument for the existence of God
    4. Article - The origins of religion : evolved adaptation or by-product? (suggests religion is a byproduct of cognitive functions)
    5. Website - reasons.org (a scientific approach to proving Christianity)

    Arguments against Existence of God
    1. Bertrand Russell - Believing in God is akin to beieving in an orbiting teapot
    2. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is the deity of the parody religion[

    More information
    1. WikiPedia - Historicity of Jesus
    2. WikiPedia - Major religious groups
    3. Writings from Early Church Fathers
    4. Thomas Paine - Of the Religion of Deism Compared with the Christian Religion
    5. American Chronicle - How a Catholic priest gave us the Big Bang Theory


    Biblical Prophecy links
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/16/2010 at 06:52 AM.
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  2. #2  
    This has been debated to death here a number of times. I believe the outcome was that neither side could convince the other side they were crazy.

  3.    #3  
    It might seem that way! I'd argue that one should apply the same reasoning to their faith as they do to other things in this world. I'd argue that there are things (such as "what came before the beginning?") that we cannot answer based on only our human capacity to understand things. This requires visiting areas such as philosophy and even history. It requires applying the same vigor to religious beliefs and documents as we do to any other books from our civilization.
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  4.    #4  
    As a starting point for discussion, I'd like to share a link to a talk on Arguments for God's Existence. Please give it a listen or provide additional links that present other arguments.
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  5. #5  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    As a starting point for discussion, I'd like to share a link to a talk on Arguments for God's Existence. Please give it a listen or provide additional links that present other arguments.
    I believe that no discussion attempting to justify the existence of God is ever really effective. Science methodology and religious faith are an apples and oranges discussion. For example the link cited above: among the arguments on that site is:

    The Moral Argument

    • Real moral obligation is a fact. We are really, truly, objectively obligated to do good and avoid evil.
    • Either the atheistic view of reality is correct or the "religious" one.
    • But the atheistic one is incompatible with there being moral obligation.
    • Therefore the "religious" view of reality is correct.
    Such "logical" arguments are flawed. It starts with a supposition that moral obligation is a "fact", with no supportive evidence. Even if one were to grant this "fact", the athiestic view is not incompatible with a moral obligation. Moral obligation can just as easily be explained as an evolutionary advantage in promoting a productive society.

    Similarly, an argument goes:

    • We have ideas of many things.
    • These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside us.
    • One of the ideas we have is the idea of God—an infinite, all-perfect being.
    • This idea could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect can be greater than its cause.
    • Therefore, the idea must have been caused by something outside us which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.
    • But only God himself has those qualities.
    • Therefore God himself must be the cause of the idea we have of him.
    • Therefore God exists.
    Is it really impossible that the idea of an infinite, all-perfect being cannot come from within imperfect beings, because we can't imagine anything greater than ourselves? By that logic, Superman exists as well.

    Or this:

    The Argument from Miracles

    • A miracle is an event whose only adequate explanation is the extraordinary and direct intervention of God.
    • There are numerous well-attested miracles.
    • Therefore, there are numerous events whose only adequate explanation is the extraordinary and direct intervention of God.
    • Therefore God exists.
    Really? The evidence to explain God is that there are "well-attested miracles", which are themselves devoid of evidence.
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/16/2010 at 05:45 PM.
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  6. #7  
    wait can we define both god and what existence is first?

    once we find consensus, then we can work on creating our proof.
  7. #8  
    put someone that says God does not exist in a plane and cut the fuel line and disable the controls or do the same in a car .... then have a camera right there and its proven that when people are put in a life or death situation they cry out to God wether or not they claim there is a God. lol now thats funny!
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  8. #9  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    put someone that says God does not exist in a plane and cut the fuel line and disable the controls or do the same in a car .... then have a camera right there and its proven that when people are put in a life or death situation they cry out to God wether or not they claim there is a God. lol now thats funny!
    That might prove that people feel the need for comfort in the face of impending death - which of course is a pretty good explanation for the development of God and religion in the first place.
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  9. #10  
    And neither myself or any other person including God has to prove anything to anyone. just ask jesus to come into your heart if you want to know if he is real . you have to look for and seek him truly with your heart. not in the aspect of trying to prove anything because the condition of your heart and the reasons you search will determine what you find.
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  10. #11  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    And neither myself or any other person including God has to prove anything to anyone.
    That is true. If it gives you comfort, then that's great.

    And no amount of evidence will dissuade you from your faith, and only evidence will get someone like me to believe. Which is why these discussions, while at times entertaining, are non-productive.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  11.    #12  
    Quote Originally Posted by windzilla View Post
    wait can we define both god and what existence is first?

    once we find consensus, then we can work on creating our proof.
    Assuming you are serious, please help me to understand more specifically what you mean or what the possible definitions of "god" might be. I'm more inclined to let people define their meanings as they go. Since people (or societies) have created "gods" for various reasons throughout history, I think those definitions of "god" are fair game during the beginning of our discussion. I beleive they call the belief in many gods "pantheism". I probably have my terminology wrong, so anyone who wants to establish some suitable definitions is welcome to do so.

    Regarding a definition for "existence", I think you may have stumped me, but please feel free to elaborate on why this might be good and what traps we might encounter if we don't (that is, if your very question is not a trap in itself).

    Let me close by saying I'm just a regular guy with no schooling in theology or religion (so I'm likely to take a while before I can answer some posts).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #13  
    I find it useful to follow the MAPS:

    We have the MANUSCRIPTS from which the Bible was translated. Through ARCHAEOLOGY we can verify their content. Through history we can note the fulfillment of "PROPHECY" (I.e.the accurate description of events prior to their occurrence). Through STATISTICAL PROBABILITY we can argue that the likelihood of such prophecies from people who were separated by time and space each having fulfillment in one person in the course of human history without coordination is nil. The same text describes such a coordinator. It is at least with in reason to consider such a one exists.
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    #14  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    This has been debated to death here a number of times. I believe the outcome was that neither side could convince the other side they were crazy.

    Classic straw man argument.
  14. #15  
    Since those of us that believe in God, see God as a source of power and energy while being unseen, then how is it that this can be put into little boxes like the chart above? Or is it that we can do so since God is working through us?

    It all comes down to faith. After all try to find the first or last number for a number line or what contains the universe.
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    #16  
    There are instances wherein "science" falls into the faith category. A recent example is Global Warming aka Climate Change.
  16. #17  
    Quote Originally Posted by jewel View Post
    There are instances wherein "science" falls into the faith category. A recent example is Global Warming aka Climate Change.
    +1
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    #18  
    I guess my biggest problem with the chart above is that it shows science is always right until it's proven wrong. Then they just adjust some things and come out with a new "theory" and claim it to be fact until again it is proven wrong. Shoot the world was flat until it wasn't. I just have a problem following something that can be changed at any given time. The Bible and the believers in it have been around a long time and no one has changed the Bible to meet the needs of the people reading it. It just teaches people how to live and walk like Jesus did. No one here is perfect, including me but the Bible teaches forgiveness not only for others, but also for the mistakes I (we) make in life. Only one person in history lived that perfect life Jesus.


    P.S. I have to say this is one of the calmest "God" discussions I have seen. Props to those who have posted and refrained from name calling.
  18. #19  
    There are erudite philosophical reasons for the existence of God dating back to St.Augustine and beyond but here's what it comes down to for me:

    Is this really as good as it gets, which OS you have on your cell phone? I say that tongue-in-cheek but you get the idea.
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  19. #20  
    Quote Originally Posted by foosball View Post
    There are erudite philosophical reasons for the existence of God dating back to St.Augustine and beyond but here's what it comes down to for me:

    Is this really as good as it gets, which OS you have on your cell phone? I say that tongue-in-cheek but you get the idea.
    Love this.
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