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  1. #161  
    Isn't this thread supposed to be a discussion about whether god exist or does not? I don't see why there are so many post where specific religions are being used to support both sides of the arguments. Typically the conception of god is universal and there really isn't a need to throw in specifics about religions and its members since doing so doesn't really help the initial motive of this thread.
  2.    #162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    My point is that people can choose to believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, or accept that it was written by men ...
    I got the gist of this upon rereading your post. Thanks for the clarification.
    Treating the Bible is "the literal word of God" is what I classify as "fundamentalism". In practice, even fundamentalists do not take the entire Bible literally (as your post implies in at least some of the examples). Your post will be a big challenge for me to answer as well as I'd like to (as it would require substantial study and learning on my part). I can give you a quick summary that addresses most (if not all of the OT citations). The Mosaic precepts were replaced with a greater and more complete covenant in the NT. There are five covenants in the OT. Each covenant is more full than it's predecessor and essentially "replaces it" (my words, maybe not exactly correct). The sixth covenant is covenant encompasing both J e w s and Gentiles. There's also a seventh covenant after the end times when all God's people are united in Heaven. What I've just said is pretty "Catholic" in that various Christian denominations may subscribe to parts of this, but they often might also disagree too. There are a few Bible Studies that cover this issue (and I haven't completed any of them yet):


    I think I still owe you some comments on the NT passages you quoted.
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  3. Micael's Avatar
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    #163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brantal View Post
    Isn't this thread supposed to be a discussion about whether god exist or does not? I don't see why there are so many post where specific religions are being used to support both sides of the arguments. Typically the conception of god is universal and there really isn't a need to throw in specifics about religions and its members since doing so doesn't really help the initial motive of this thread.
    Well like most threads you have related side bars. It's natural. If you'd like to make a point or case for or against the existence of God, I'm sure that someone will pick up on it and debate your view
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #164  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The Bible also prohibits:

    • Consuming blood, blood in meat is not exempt. (Genesis 9:4)
    • Performing any work on the sabbath.(Exodus 20:10)
    • Cooking a goat in its mothers milk.(Exodus 23:19)
    • Eating fat.(Leviticus 3:17)
    • The consumption of pork.(Leviticus 11:7-8)
    • Eating a fellowship offering more than three days old.(Leviticus 19:5-8)
    • Planting more then one kind of seed in a field.(Leviticus 19:19)
    • Wearing clothing woven of more then one kind of cloth.(Leviticus 19:19)
    • Cutting the hair on the sides of your head or clipping of the edges of your beard.(Leviticus 19:27)
    • Tattoos.(Leviticus 19:28)
    • Consulting a psychic or spiritualist.(Leviticus 19:31)
    • Being a psychic or spiritualist, punishable by death.(Leviticus 20:27)
    • Touching the dead carcass of a pig.(Deuteronomy 14:8)
    • Eating aquatic creatures lacking fins or scales.(Deuteronomy 14:9-10)
    • Transvestism.(Deuteronomy 22:5)
    • Consuming the meat of strangled animals.(Acts 15:28-29)
    • For women, speaking in church.(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
    • If you are a slave, disobedience.(Ephesians 6:5)


    The difficulty in reading the Bible as literal text, rather than parables designed to promote positive actions towards others, is that you're stuck with reconciling what is literal and what you can toss out. If we can agree that being a disobedient slave isn't a bad thing, nor is touching a dead pig, then why not toss out others, such as the prohibition against homosexuality?
    Be carful when you quote a certain part of the Bible and don't look at it in context of the situation. Just as anything there is background on each of those verses that make it specific to different individuals and sometimes different serimonies. Also note that wording in the bible has to be taken back to the root and you must know the meaning behind some of the translations to get the full effect of these teachings. Not to mention the fact that with the sacrifitial death of Jesus many Old Testament laws were then supperceeded by the grace of God in sending His Son to die on a cross for our sins.
    Do not make the mistake of taking individual lines out of context to meet the needs of your argument.
  5. #165  
    It's applicable. The dozens and dozens of differences between various religions view on who or what god is and what he/it has to say paints a picture for his/it's complete dismissal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brantal View Post
    Isn't this thread supposed to be a discussion about whether god exist or does not? I don't see why there are so many post where specific religions are being used to support both sides of the arguments. Typically the conception of god is universal and there really isn't a need to throw in specifics about religions and its members since doing so doesn't really help the initial motive of this thread.
  6.    #166  
    In my last post, based on your "the literal word of God" comment, I had also wanted to discuss various writing styles but I forgot to write about that before hitting "Submit".

    Somewhere I recall a talk that mentions the various types of writing in the Bible. Just like in a newspaper, where you read the comics differently from the obituaries, news articles, advertisements, and classified, and how you read "the onion" or the Enquirer differently than the NYT or the WSJ, different writing styles in the Bible have different purposes. Some parts are teaching theological lessons, some parts are historical, some are prophecy, some are songs of praise and worship, and this is just in the OT. The NT follows a similar strategy Where some parts deal with heaven and salvation, the Gospels deal with the life of Jesus, Acts and parts of the Gospels are historical. Parables and many of the epistles teach theological principles. You get the general idea. I'll try and find some links about this sometime when I get time.
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    #167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Be carful when you quote a certain part of the Bible and don't look at it in context of the situation. Just as anything there is background on each of those verses that make it specific to different individuals and sometimes different serimonies. Also note that wording in the bible has to be taken back to the root and you must know the meaning behind some of the translations to get the full effect of these teachings. Not to mention the fact that with the sacrifitial death of Jesus many Old Testament laws were then supperceeded by the grace of God in sending His Son to die on a cross for our sins.
    Do not make the mistake of taking individual lines out of context to meet the needs of your argument.
    Wow, with all you have to know and do just to get an inkling of what is written in that book, you'd probably need a professional who's studied it in detail, and for years, and maybe at a university or something. Someone you could go to for questions and what not. I wonder if anyone has thought of that....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #168  
    Or, instead of wasting my time trying to figure out those silly riddles, I could just be a good person as defined my the laws and norms of my community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Be carful when you quote a certain part of the Bible and don't look at it in context of the situation. Just as anything there is background on each of those verses that make it specific to different individuals and sometimes different serimonies. Also note that wording in the bible has to be taken back to the root and you must know the meaning behind some of the translations to get the full effect of these teachings. Not to mention the fact that with the sacrifitial death of Jesus many Old Testament laws were then supperceeded by the grace of God in sending His Son to die on a cross for our sins.
    Do not make the mistake of taking individual lines out of context to meet the needs of your argument.
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    #169  
    And where did these laws come from? Our forefathers were Bible believers
  10. #170  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    And where did these laws come from? Our forefathers were Bible believers
    They were also slaveowners.
    What did they know about morals?
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #171  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    And where did these laws come from? Our forefathers were Bible believers
    That's a blanket statement that just isn't true. In fact, many of them were deists. Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Ethan Allen, George Washington, to name a few. This doesn't mean that they didn't attend church or read the bible, but their thinking was not exactly in line with pure Christianity, either.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12.    #172  
    Quote Originally Posted by Brantal View Post
    Isn't this thread supposed to be a discussion about whether god exist or does not? I don't see why there are so many post where specific religions are being used to support both sides of the arguments. Typically the conception of god is universal and there really isn't a need to throw in specifics about religions and its members since doing so doesn't really help the initial motive of this thread.
    An argument was raised that perhaps a supreme being (if she were truly supreme) might allow only one religion to exist. I think the discussion has been mostly around whether some of the more common religions make any sense or not. You're right (in a sense) that this is a diversion, but if one believes in a supreme being that loves us enough to give us free will, it's seems natural that some of us might reach different understandings than others. Most of the arguments so far regarding whether religion is reasonable or logical have centered around whether the Bible is reasonable or logical. I think that's a reasonable place to start given what members in our forum happen to know or believe. A believe a lot of what's being discussed is necessary for one to understand the logic behind at least the one representative religion that we'd discussed so far. I welcome people of other faiths to step in and help with the logic behind choosing other religions.
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    #173  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I welcome people of other faiths to step in and help with the logic behind choosing other religions.
    Or no religion at all?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14.    #174  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Or, instead of wasting my time trying to figure out those silly riddles, I could just be a good person as defined my the laws and norms of my community.
    That works for me. Do you care whether God exists or not? Should we mark you down as a "no" vote, or are you still unsure?
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    #175  
    "The effects we acknowledge naturally, do include a power of their producing, before they were produced; and that power presupposeth something existent that hath such power; and the thing so existing with power to produce, if it were not eternal, must needs have been produced by somewhat before it, and that again by something else before that, till we come to an eternal, that is to say, the first power of all powers and first cause of all causes; and this is it which all men conceive by the name of God, implying eternity, incomprehensibility, and omnipotence."

    —Thomas Hobbes, Works, vol. 4, pp. 59-60; quoted in John Orr, English Deism, p. 76
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #176  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    That works for me. Do you care whether God exists or not? Should we mark you down as a "no" vote, or are you still unsure?
    Are you saying that denial of Christianity is a denial of the existence of God?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  17.    #177  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Or no religion at all?
    Good catch! I should not have inadvertently discouraged atheists from participating in the discussion. We can't possibly have a meaningful discussion devoid of alliterative viewpoints.
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    #178  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Good catch! I should not have inadvertently discouraged atheists from participating in the discussion. We can't possibly have a meaningful discussion devoid of alliterative viewpoints.
    Ahh, you still seem to be missing my point. No religion does not mean no God. I've tried several different ways now to relate this to you

    My communication skills are terrible, I know.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  19. #179  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Do not make the mistake of taking individual lines out of context to meet the needs of your argument.
    And yet folks use the same method to pick passages in order to condemn practices with which they personally disagree (such as homosexuality). That's sort of my point.
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  20. #180  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    That works for me. Do you care whether God exists or not? Should we mark you down as a "no" vote, or are you still unsure?
    I have never been unsure about the nonexistence of God.

    But....for the sake of argument lets say next week I was proven 100% incorrect and a God made it's self known beyond any reasonable doubt. News interviews, door to door handshakes, TV adds, etc, all with the all mighty laying down his directives and wishes. I would care then (and likely have a ton of brown nosing to do).

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