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  1. #1741  
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  2.    #1742  
    Thanks for posting this. I more or less have a similar philosophy (and just like Penn I also am not perfect and make mistakes too - we all do). I do however feel that both tolerance and honesty can go hand in hand. I liked the honesty that he portrayed when describing his conversations, but you need to start from a position of respect (which is earned during the course of conversation). I doubt that Penn goes straight to argument with people he does not yet know. It is human to give people the benefit of the doubt before relationships are formed.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3.    #1743  
    It's been a while since I (on anyone) has posted to this thread. I've been busy with a new job for the past 4 months. While I've always hoped that many of you readers of this thread would objectively weigh evidence both supporting and possibly refuting the existence of God, I've never felt it was in my place do any of the legwork that I believe you should do on your own.

    I recently signed up for a NetFlix trial subscription and I just watched a movie (online) that makes a stronger Case for Christ than I ever could. I'm hoping to watch it again as I have more time (and take notes). It does a very good job of answering most of the objections that some of you have raised in this thread. There is also a book on Amazon.com by the same name (as well as additional study materials including some "refutations").

    One or two of you said you needed a movie to tell you that Jesus is real. here's one. What'chya gonna do about it?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #1744  
    ^ Do you believe in the Resurrection? (this thread )
    Just call me Berd.
  5. #1745  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    ^ Do you believe in the Resurrection? (this thread )
    Sadly, I do.

    However on the actual topic of the thread, as a devout atheist, I'll just stay out of it! :-)


    Beamed down to the earthlings from my eVo
    Sent from my favorite gadget!
  6. #1746  
    Case for Christ is a great book. Great movie too.
  7. #1747  
    Quote Originally Posted by verwon View Post
    Sadly, I do.

    However on the actual topic of the thread, as a devout atheist, I'll just stay out of it! :-)
    It was a pun intended for soduer for him resurrecting his thread.
    Just call me Berd.
  8. #1748  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    It was a pun intended for soduer for him resurrecting his thread.
    I know, but I comment on everything!

    Beamed down to the earthlings from my eVo
    Sent from my favorite gadget!
  9. #1749  
    What happened to Adam? (and I don't mean Dude #1)
  10.    #1750  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    ^ Do you believe in the Resurrection? (this thread )
    Too funny!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11.    #1751  
    Quote Originally Posted by verwon View Post
    ...
    However on the actual topic of the thread, as a devout atheist, I'll just stay out of it! :-) ...
    Can you talk about what makes you a devout atheist? I'm interested (in case I'm "doing it wrong"). Seriously, I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack (but I try harder and I try to learn from others). thanks
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #1752  
    Just imagine dying and nothing happens. Nothing.
  13.    #1753  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Just imagine dying and nothing happens. Nothing.
    I've tried both imagining that and imagining an afterlife. I found the later of these two alternative more helpful in my current life. I also figure that if I'm wrong, essentially I lose nothing. If the alternative is actually true, I lose everything.

    I'm interested in hearing more about how your imagination works.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #1754  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I've tried both imagining that and imagining an afterlife. I found the later of these two alternative more helpful in my current life. I also figure that if I'm wrong, essentially I lose nothing. If the alternative is actually true, I lose everything.

    I'm interested in hearing more about how your imagination works.
    I experience no feeling of loss either way.
    My imagination does not come into play. I just said that because you said you may be "doing it wrong".
  15.    #1755  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    I experience no feeling of loss either way.
    My imagination does not come into play. I just said that because you said you may be "doing it wrong".
    I always try to be open to possibilities where I can learn. Thank you for your comment. I did try contemplating a you suggested and the result was (ironically enough) that there would be no right and wrong.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #1756  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I always try to be open to possibilities where I can learn. Thank you for your comment. I did try contemplating a you suggested and the result was (ironically enough) that there would be no right and wrong.
    Of course there is no right or wrong. Every one of us will eventually find out from themselves. Perhaps the outcome won't be the same for all.
  17.    #1757  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Of course there is no right or wrong. Every one of us will eventually find out from themselves. Perhaps the outcome won't be the same for all.
    I do not accept that everyone will come to any common understanding or right and wrong individually. (for example: If I'm mentally ill, you should be very afraid of my definition of right. another example "Adolph H was right", and he was not mentally ill.) I know you made a bit of a stipulation in your answer, but I don't find "relative truth" (or "changing truth" for that natter) pleasing at all. In fact, I think that's one of the big problems in the world right now.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/27/2011 at 10:47 AM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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    #1758  
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyFromNam View Post
    Of course there is no right or wrong. Every one of us will eventually find out from themselves. Perhaps the outcome won't be the same for all.
    If there is nothing, you'll find out nothing.

    Alternatively, God being omnipotent, could decide believers are granted an after-life, whereas atheists are left to dissolve into nothingness.
    Which one? Humans worship various gods.
  19. #1759  
    Quote Originally Posted by CGK View Post
    If there is nothing, you'll find out nothing.



    Which one? Humans worship various gods.
    Whichever applies most.
    Or the wrong one, which would cause a riot!
    Give me back my mortal! No, he's mine, I converted him! Thunder and lightning!
  20. #1760  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Can you talk about what makes you a devout atheist? I'm interested (in case I'm "doing it wrong"). Seriously, I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack (but I try harder and I try to learn from others). thanks
    Normally, I would not get into such a discussion, but since it is you, I will cover at least some of the basics.

    First off, when I was younger, from around 8 years-old and on into my late teens, I was devoutly religious. I went to church twice on Sundays and again in the middle of the week, on Wednesdays. (I was Wesleyan Methodist, so we had a program called CYC that met in the middle of the week, which stands for Christian Youth Crusaders.)

    I toured as the premier soloist for quite a few years, with a youth singing group called The Web. We went to other churches, summer camps and entered various competitions. (Which I am proud to say that as a group and soloist, we won every one we entered.)

    This is all just to explain that I haven't been someone who's been outside of religion for their whole life and just formed their opinions based on stuff and nonsense.

    For many of those years, I fully studied religion, missions, evangelizing, cults and the many versions of the Bible, from the ancient texts that it originates from to the modern translated versions. I was deeply involved that with all my studies in church and my grades from my regular school classes, I had scholarship offers from quite a few of the associated colleges and universities. I did go to one for a year, Indiana Wesleyan University in Marion, Indiana. My major was music (Classical vocals) and Missions.

    This is getting far, far too long, already, so I'm going to try to just cover some basics that when I tied them all together, in the long run, completely turned me off, made me drop out of that college and go completely atheist, several years later.

    1) There are many, many discrepancies between those ancient texts and the Bible translations that are used, today. It seemed to me that many religions had just used them as a small basis to create their text and make it say what suited their own beliefs and purposes.

    When I asked about such, no one could give me an answer, it was always one of those things where they just said "have faith!"

    2) Where their own texts often say do not judge others, that is exactly what most religious types do. They even teach you to do this, you are just supposed to assume someone is a sinner and going to hell and go evangelize to them and help them find the lord.

    Again, no one can give any answers as to why they are so hypocritical when it comes to this.


    I could go on and on with this list, but I am not going to, just know that it is only a couple of examples.

    Finally, when I was about 17, our church got a new pastor. Said gentleman judged me very harshly, to the point where he was telling people to never listen to me, because I had no idea what I was talking about and he even told several people that I was ****. A few people I was close to came to me and told me about it, because they were very upset with his behavior. (And ironically, I was so religious, that I devoutly believed in waiting until marriage for sex and was still a virgin, who had done nothing more than kiss a boy!)

    Before his arrival, I was a teacher at the church, for Sunday School, CYC and our Vacation Bible Schools for several years in a row. Suddenly, I was no longer allowed to do any of the above, nor was I welcome to sing anymore, as I always had been for any service and holiday.

    When I finally approached the man about the problems, what his long diatribe boiled down to was he felt I was 'too smart', that I asked too many questions and was a danger to his flock! He really just wanted me gone.

    Since, by that time I was already planning to go to college, I just stopped going to church for the remaining time period.

    At the university, I was really enjoying my classes and intellectual discussions with my professors, however, to my own detriment, I thought that in such an academic environment I would be welcome to ask my questions and debate the answers and issues.

    Instead, after several months, I got called to a meeting with several of the RA's, professors and other esteemed faculty members.

    At said meeting, I was literally told "You're very intelligent, as a matter of fact, you are too smart for your own good. You really need to learn to control it. You ask far too many questions and are creating doubt in too many other people." I was then informed to either change my behavior, (IE: follow the rest of the crowd.) or I would not be welcome to return the following year. (And no, there were no bad grades or behavior problems to warrant this, according to the terms of their very own charter and student guidelines.)

    It was beyond my understanding that my questioning and curiosity was creating such a problem. Shame on me for thinking that a religion would welcome an intellectual that wanted to question certain things and debate some other things.

    As more time passed that year and reactions to anything I did or said did not improve, things began to become clearer for me. Especially when I discovered that I had been reported to other colleges and religious factions as being "a problem", so that none would accept me, unless it was clearly demonstrated for a period of time and backed up with information from my current one that I "could behave and keep my mouth shut!" Yes, they basically blacklisted me!!!

    After much pondering over these events, as well as discovering quite a few other people that had gone through similar experiences, I was forced to conclude that religions don't want people that will ask questions, they don't want deep thinkers, they want sheep (their flock) that will follow along and just accept anything they put forth.

    Even though I did not return to that college, nor to that church on a regular basis, (though I was invited back to sing, several times, by a new pastor.) I was never able to feel the same way about religion, again. But, at that time, I still believed.

    It took several more years, for me to really accept the way things were and to conclude for myself that there was a reason they did not want those types of questions asked, that there were reasons they did not want someone around who was so highly intellectual and the only reason I could come to as a final conclusion was that it was because NONE of it was real and true.
    Sent from my favorite gadget!

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