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  1. #1701  
    Right... we affect our environment... it is a cause of our actions. You say not to extrapolate to other species... I do have one question for you... do you believe animals and plants have souls?

    I think natural selection plays a role in which branches would survive or die off... but I dont agree that every species pumps out genetic modifications at the same rate. Look at the alligator... unchanged for so long... practically a dinosaur he is. He does NEED to change... so he hasnt... or the cockroatch... my friends there is a creature at the very height... it can live with no food, still function with extremities removed including its head... survive practically anything except severe physical damage. On an evolutionary scale... I would say the cockroach is far superior to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    It could be either. In the case of humans, I suspect you may be right about the cause (but we also seem to be affecting our environment by our actions). In the end ()at least Biblically, it seems as our environment (including our ablities to live amongst eachother peacefully) may become very challenging. Let's not extrapolate our own experience to that of other species!


    I think the rate of evolutionary change may be more or less constant but the success or failures of each such change would be dependent on environmental factors. (This is "Natural Selection", right?)


    That could be the case, but nothing says that we cannot be special for other reasons.
  2.    #1702  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    Stephen Hawkins is no more advanced than someone with down syndrome.
    Finally something we both agree on!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #1703  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Finally something we both agree on!
    HAHA.... I like you sudoer.

    By the way... I thought I would mention to you... I didnt think sudo stood for super user... I thought it stood for substitute user. I think of that every time I notice your signiature line.
  4.    #1704  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    Right... we affect our environment... it is a cause of our actions. You say not to extrapolate to other species... I do have one question for you... do you believe animals and plants have souls?
    It's not a matter of what I think - but rather a matter of what any God who might exist has revealed (and the likelihood that we should believe Him). The Church says that souls are unique to mankind. Now my opinion: I believe it's clearly possible that other forms of life might inhabit Heaven. I think it will depend on whether or not we need those things in order to be happy.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5.    #1705  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    HAHA.... I like you sudoer.
    The feeling is mutual!

    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    I didnt think sudo stood for super user... I thought it stood for substitute user. I think of that every time I notice your signiature line.
    I'll have to check into that. thanks!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #1706  
    So then you believe the Church's interpretation of the word to be wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    It's not a matter of what I think - but rather a matter of what any God who might exist has revealed (and the likelihood that we should believe Him). The Church says that souls are unique to mankind. Now my opinion: I believe it's clearly possible that other forms of life might inhabit Heaven. I think it will depend on whether or not we need those things in order to be happy.
  7. #1707  
    To quote Voltaire circa 1770: "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him".
  8.    #1708  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    So then you believe the Church's interpretation of the word to be wrong?
    I may be ignorant on the matter. I want to learn. Please explain!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #1709  
    I am familiar with that quote... the man was on to something. Hence my belief that god is in the act of being man...

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericMusings View Post
    To quote Voltaire circa 1770: "If god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him".
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #1710  
    Pointing to the misunderstanding of god does not eliminate god.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #1711  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I may be ignorant on the matter. I want to learn. Please explain!
    If I read correctly... you stated the Church's position on souls is that they are unique to mankind... yet you also say that your own belief is at a disparity with this. Earlier we spoke of truth... and you told me you maintain the Churches oral tradition and that of the Jesus are still the same. If truth is absolute... and the oral tradition of now is equal to the oral tradition of the founder, who was infallible. Then should not your views on souls be the same as that of the Church?

    This is not an attack... merely trying to get a feel for you.
  12. #1712  
    How do you misunderstand the unfathomable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Pointing to the misunderstanding of god does not eliminate god.
  13. Micael's Avatar
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    #1713  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    How do you misunderstand the unfathomable?
    Who said it was unfathomable?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  14.    #1714  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    If I read correctly... you stated the Church's position on souls is that they are unique to mankind... yet you also say that your own belief is at a disparity with this. Earlier we spoke of truth... and you told me you maintain the Churches oral tradition and that of the Jesus are still the same. If truth is absolute... and the oral tradition of now is equal to the oral tradition of the founder, who was infallible. Then should not your views on souls be the same as that of the Church?
    My views absolutely need to conform to what God has revealed to and through is Church. I never said that plants or animals have souls. They do not. Since they are not mad in God's image, they likely would not understand God the way we do, so my guess is that maybe they could inhabit Heaven (simply as part of that environment). This is pure speculation on my part in an area that I do not believe the Church has any data to explore. I know I will be completely happy in Heaven, and if God deems having plants and animals as necessary for my happiness, who will I be to argue?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    This is not an attack... merely trying to get a feel for you.
    I'm not expecting any attacks from you, but thanks for clarifying (and for having the courage to ask your question).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15. #1715  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    My views absolutely need to conform to what God has revealed to and through is Church.
    Which church?
  16.    #1716  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    Which church?
    I've stated before in this thread that I am Catholic. (If that surprises anyone, that's OK with me if you want to discuss it - but let's keep the thread open to all viewpoints and all faiths.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17. #1717  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I've stated before in this thread that I am Catholic. (If that surprises anyone, that's OK with me if you want to discuss it - but let's keep the thread open to all viewpoints and all faiths.)
    So do you believe the Pope is the current authority on God? Or at least his representative?
  18.    #1718  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    So do you believe the Pope is the current authority on God? Or at least his representative?
    The pope is a man (and a sinner just like the rest of us). God is the authority on God. The popes (since Peter) have been entrusted by Jesus to defend and guide the Church (in areas of "faith and morals"). We should not equate how good or bad any given pope is with God's authority to provide a final arbiter on issues related to how to guide the Church. The alternative to a single/final arbiter is everyone interpreting the Bible (and the Jesus' teachings to the apostles) on their own. In practice, popes have rarely (if ever?) made decisions on their own.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. #1719  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The popes (since Peter) have been entrusted by Jesus to defend and guide the Church (in areas of "faith and morals"). We should not equate how good or bad any given pope is with God's authority to provide a final arbiter on issues related to how to guide the Church. The alternative to a single/final arbiter is everyone interpreting the Bible (and the Jesus' teachings to the apostles) on their own. In practice, popes have rarely (if ever?) made decisions on their own.
    This isn't meant to come off as caustic, but if their purpose is to guide the church in areas of faith and morals, then either God is immoral or Jesus had some pretty bad ideas about who would best be the representatives to accomplish such goals.

    I find it immoral to tell people that using condoms will actually cause them to get HIV/AIDS.
    I find it immoral to equate being a woman priest with being a child molester.
    I find it immoral to protect child molesters and prevent or hinder proper authorities from being able to take action against them.
    I find it repugnant to kick people out of the church (which I believe would, in the eyes of the church, be a sentence of Hell for eternity, right?) for saving a 9 year old's life. (The long story is that she was raped by her step father and impregnated. The doctor that aborted the baby, the mother that allowed it to happen and the girl were all kicked out. The ****** was allowed to stay).

    Those were acts done on behalf of the church. Not the pope (though I imagine he has a little more pull politically).

    I'm sure this was all brought up before in the thread, but I find it difficult to comprehend how someone could follow such a church.

    Separately, I don't see that you've answered my earlier question, but of the God that you described, why do you believe in him?
  20. #1720  
    Quote Originally Posted by bluewanders View Post
    [...] Evolution is only concerned with survival and adaptation to the the environment in which a species lives. [...]
    I think this is the twist that is often missed when 'survival of the fittest' is tossed about. 'Weakness' from an evolutionary perspective is completely different than what others might consider 'weak'.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...

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