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  1.    #1661  
    I've misplaced/forgotten who asked me to give some "attributes of God" but here goes:
    • (From the Baltimore Catechism) "God is eternal, all-good, all-knowing, all-present, and almighty."
    • I view God as a Father who loves me in every way but who also gives me the free will to make my own choice regarding whether I want to love Him.

    (Maybe I/we can add more attributes, but let's start here and see where this goes.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #1662  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    I'm not sure what's so drastic about our leap. Isn't it possible that in another 5 million years, some other species could evolve to have similar intelligence? There really isn't that much that separates us from the other apes.
    Seriously? I see vast differences. Last I checked, gorillas weren't destroying their environment at an alarming rate, or debating the best platform for nextgen smartphones.

    And we've supposedly had 4 billion years. I'm just saying, we're "it"? Just us? Shouldn't there be some lizard people perhaps?

    So why us? Just a fluke?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #1663  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    • (From the Baltimore Catechism) "God is eternal, all-good, all-knowing, all-present, and almighty."
    • One problem with that is "The Problem of Evil". It goes something like this:
      Why does Evil exist if God is all powerful, and all-good? Either he is able to stop evil, but allows evil to happen (meaning he's not all-good), he is unable to prevent evil (meaning he's not all powerful), or he is evil.

      Or, from my point of view, bad things happen, and god doesn't exist.

      Quote Originally Posted by SUDOER View Post
    • I view God as a Father who loves me in every way but who also gives me the free will to make my own choice regarding whether I want to love Him.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUDOER View Post
    Why do you choose to love Him?

    (Maybe I/we can add more attributes, but let's start here and see where this goes.)
    Would you say you believe in the literal God of the bible?
  4. #1664  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Seriously? I see vast differences. Last I checked, gorillas weren't destroying their environment at an alarming rate, or debating the best platform for nextgen smartphones.

    And we've supposedly had 4 billion years. I'm just saying, we're "it"? Just us? Shouldn't there be some lizard people perhaps?

    So why us? Just a fluke?
    Yes, we do have more intelligence than apes, but that happened over a few million years. Give a few million more, and perhaps there will be others.

    Had there not been the mass extinction 65 million years ago, there just might have been lizard people - it was the mass extinction that allowed mammals to breed and diversify in the void left by the dinosaurs.
  5. #1665  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Seriously? I see vast differences. Last I checked, gorillas weren't destroying their environment at an alarming rate, or debating the best platform for nextgen smartphones.

    And we've supposedly had 4 billion years.
    And how recent are most of those advances? And are they the ability of all humans, or a relatively few freaks?
    I'm just saying, we're "it"? Just us? Shouldn't there be some lizard people perhaps?
    Why? It seems your assumption that a humanoid form is 'more evolved'. What about dolphins or ants or even cockroaches?
    So why us? Just a fluke?
    I think yes, to an extent. How many people know how to produce electricity? What if something happened to all (or even most) of them?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  6. Micael's Avatar
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    #1666  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    Yes, we do have more intelligence than apes, but that happened over a few million years. Give a few million more, and perhaps there will be others.

    Had there not been the mass extinction 65 million years ago, there just might have been lizard people - it was the mass extinction that allowed mammals to breed and diversify in the void left by the dinosaurs.
    I think you're missing my point. Of the estimated 1.4 million species that currently exist on this planet, ours is the ONLY ONE that's evolved to an advanced state in a relatively short timeframe - when you look at the overall scale of time since the first signs of life appeared here on earth.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #1667  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    How many people know how to produce electricity? What if something happened to all (or even most) of them?
    The number of knowing how, and the number of those being capable of learning how, are two vastly different numbers.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  8. #1668  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I think you're missing my point. Of the estimated 1.4 million species that currently exist on this planet, ours is the ONLY ONE that's evolved to an advanced state in a relatively short timeframe - when you look at the overall scale of time since the first signs of life appeared here on earth.
    I think you're missing my point: so far. That's not to say there isn't equally intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. Or that we will always be the only ones to have evolved to a certain level of intelligence on this planet. Because we're the first doesn't mean we're the only-ever.

    When you look at the overall time frame of the universe, why do you think the minuscule time frame that we've been on earth is at all significant? I like Carl Sagan's take on that:
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    #1669  
    So you really have no direct answer for my question, but I do appreciate your point of view. Thank you for your response.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #1670  
    I personally think we were either put here for a purpose or someone outside of our world has guided us from a very early time until now. No I'm not saying god, but I am saying that we have evolved far more rapidly than anything we know on this planet. I also believe that sheer mathematics says because off the size of the universe we are not the only intelligent life form out here.
  11. #1671  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So you really have no direct answer for my question, but I do appreciate your point of view. Thank you for your response.
    For the sake of the discussion. If we grant your premise that humans are unique in the universe, what does that imply?
  12.    #1672  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So you really have no direct answer for my question, but I do appreciate your point of view. Thank you for your response.
    I think a few of you will be surprised if you go back through this thread and learn a little more about Micael's views. If I remember correctly, he is a "deist" (which basically means he believes God created the world and then more or less ignored it after that).

    Micael, am I remembering correctly? Why do you think God would "check out" in such a way? (Just curious - and trying to change the subject a bit in order to keep the "temperature" in here from getting to high! ) -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13.    #1673  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    I personally think we were either put here for a purpose or someone outside of our world has guided us from a very early time until now. No I'm not saying god, but I am saying that we have evolved far more rapidly than anything we know on this planet. I also believe that sheer mathematics says because off the size of the universe we are not the only intelligent life form out here.
    If not a God, then I guess the best place to look for such "big" things would be your good state of Texas!

    PS: Welcome to the discussion!

    EDIT: To respond to your post (in a more serious way), I have to say that I've often wondered "whether God is an alien" too. (In my case, I don't dismiss that as a possibility but I still give him credit for being a supreme being who "always was".)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #1674  
    Quote Originally Posted by switchedgear View Post
    I personally think we were either put here for a purpose or someone outside of our world has guided us from a very early time until now. No I'm not saying god, but I am saying that we have evolved far more rapidly than anything we know on this planet.
    What was rapid about it? The universe existed for 9 billion years before our planet did, and Earth existed for more than 4 billion years before we did.

    And again, that's misunderstanding what evolution is. We have evolved at exactly the same rate as anything else on this planet. However, we have evolved differently.

    Where is there evidence for any guiding hand?

    I also believe that sheer mathematics says because off the size of the universe we are not the only intelligent life form out here.
    That, I'd agree with
  15. #1675  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    The number of knowing how, and the number of those being capable of learning how, are two vastly different numbers.
    Who would teach them?
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  16. #1676  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    For the sake of the discussion. If we grant your premise that humans are unique in the universe, what does that imply?
    "Seems like an awful waste of space."
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
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    #1677  
    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    For the sake of the discussion. If we grant your premise that humans are unique in the universe, what does that imply?
    I never said that. Where did you get that?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  18. #1678  
    Good point... the old world religions believed had much different views than contemporary religions. For instance... what about the worship of fire? It was held in high regard in many old world religions... even up to the point Prometheus stealing fire from the gods. And the alchemists were the first to attempt to explain fire by defining an element they called phlogiston. I will slap up a link at the bottom for those interested in more. The alchemists were the first to be called chemists... but there are quite a few people who feel it was almost more of a religion.

    Phlogiston Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by jmquinn View Post
    What if things considered miracles are simply misunderstood natural phenomena? What do you consider miracles? Have there been any within the last decade?

    Praying for lost keys and find them? I'd argue that's coincidence.
    Mary in the knot of a tree or piece of french toast? I'd argue that it's just a knot in a tree and a piece of french toast.

    But I doubt those are things you'd call miracles. Any examples?
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    #1679  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    Who would teach them?
    I didn't say would. I said could (as in 'capable of').
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  20. #1680  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I never said that. Where did you get that?
    Perhaps there was a bit of extrapolation, but you were arguing for humanity's unique intelligence. In post 1666, you said;

    I think you're missing my point. Of the estimated 1.4 million species that currently exist on this planet, ours is the ONLY ONE that's evolved to an advanced state in a relatively short timeframe

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