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  1. #141  
    I don't know what the Bible says or doesn't say about homosexuals. All I know is that a very large slice of the US population, that claims to follow it very closely, systemically wishes to violate the human rights of my homosexual friends based on nothing more then their religious convictions.

    When you see how this effects the lives of those people I can't fathom how anyone could believe that a "higher power" would direct it's followers in that way? Ultimately a god/religion will be judged by it's followers actions not by whats in in the manual.

    I'm proud to say that as a Canadian my home government has managed to actually be secular (read: not making legislative decisions based on religious beliefs) and grant these people full and equal rights under the law. I'm sure the USA will get there one day.....

    And no, I'm not homosexual, as if that matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I'm not sure the Bible says to hate homosexuals. It does say homosexual acts are wrong, it also says that heterosexual acts outside of marriage is just as wrong. Our Father gives us his word to help guide us in this life so that we may be with Him in the next. This same God tells us we will be given no temptation beyond our strength (although I've often proven myself not even willing to test my own strength). Are you willing to state whether you are homosexual or heterosexual? (Sorry if that's a personal question, but I have friends who are homosexual too, but I am not.) EDIT: I would just like to acknowledge where you are and move on as you need.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/17/2010 at 01:40 PM.
  2. #142  
    It would be pretty hard for the Human race to survive if everyone was a homosexual. Wouldn't it?
  3.    #143  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    just know this when its all [finally] over and the dust has settled and your kneeling at the feet of Jesus in the judgment. Each and every one of us will confess him as Lord and savior . The only difference is some will go one place and some to another. Make no mistake regardless of what you believe right now you will stand before him in judgment. Doesn't matter if you believe or not . There is really nothing more to discuss . You can't convince people that one God (the father of Jesus) [exists]. All we can do is pray he opens your eyes one day to the understanding and wisdom of his word.
    This represents the "Fundamentalist" Christian view. There are varying beliefs of who is "saved" and who is not, but pretty much all Christians would agree with the above if you "heard and understood" his word, but chose out of pride to follow your own path. Catholics argue that salvation is possible for people of various faiths, but that the Catholic/Christian path is the normal one which God desires. Most Christian denominations would have a view very similar to the one quoted above (usually based on the book of Romans) but some focus on other teachings like "God is love" without considering that Hell is real throughout the Bible.

    I know the above isn't convincing many atheists to change their position, but Christians generally do believe God wants us to spread this message (for your own good, should there be an afterlife).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #144  
    What? No it wouldn't. Advanced medicine has cured us of that. And besides, that's so not the point. You can replace homosexual with any other thing that religious groups are hating on. Evolution, eating pork, driving on Sunday, p0rn. It just happens that the hatred of homosexuals was a good example.
  5. #145  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post

    I'm not sure the Bible says to hate homosexuals. It does say homosexual acts are wrong, it also says that heterosexual acts outside of marriage is just as wrong. Our Father gives us his word to help guide us in this life so that we may be with Him in the next.
    The Bible also prohibits:

    • Consuming blood, blood in meat is not exempt. (Genesis 9:4)
    • Performing any work on the sabbath.(Exodus 20:10)
    • Cooking a goat in its mothers milk.(Exodus 23:19)
    • Eating fat.(Leviticus 3:17)
    • The consumption of pork.(Leviticus 11:7-8)
    • Eating a fellowship offering more than three days old.(Leviticus 19:5-8)
    • Planting more then one kind of seed in a field.(Leviticus 19:19)
    • Wearing clothing woven of more then one kind of cloth.(Leviticus 19:19)
    • Cutting the hair on the sides of your head or clipping of the edges of your beard.(Leviticus 19:27)
    • Tattoos.(Leviticus 19:28)
    • Consulting a psychic or spiritualist.(Leviticus 19:31)
    • Being a psychic or spiritualist, punishable by death.(Leviticus 20:27)
    • Touching the dead carcass of a pig.(Deuteronomy 14:8)
    • Eating aquatic creatures lacking fins or scales.(Deuteronomy 14:9-10)
    • Transvestism.(Deuteronomy 22:5)
    • Consuming the meat of strangled animals.(Acts 15:28-29)
    • For women, speaking in church.(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)
    • If you are a slave, disobedience.(Ephesians 6:5)


    The difficulty in reading the Bible as literal text, rather than parables designed to promote positive actions towards others, is that you're stuck with reconciling what is literal and what you can toss out. If we can agree that being a disobedient slave isn't a bad thing, nor is touching a dead pig, then why not toss out others, such as the prohibition against homosexuality?
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  6. #146  
    What? No it wouldn't. Advanced medicine has cured us of that. [quote]

    You are talking about natural reproduction here aren't you?
  7. #147  
    Quote Originally Posted by Spydrbutt View Post
    You are talking about natural reproduction here aren't you?
    What I'm talking about is that many religions actively encourage discrimination against large segments of the population....and therefor I don't understand how anyone could believe that an all powerful being, in control of the entire universe, would find their actions acceptable let alone furthering their changes of an eternal say in comfort land.
  8.    #148  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    And no, I'm not homosexual, as if that matters.
    It does not matter other than I want to be sensitive to your feelings. If you experienced same-sex attraction, I might use different examples as we continue our conversation than otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I'm proud to say that as a Canadian my home government has managed to actually be secular (read: not making legislative decisions based on religious beliefs) and grant these people full and equal rights under the law. I'm sure the USA will get there one day.
    Thanks for sharing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I don't know what the Bible says or doesn't say about homosexuals. All I know is that a very large slice of the US population, that claims to follow it very closely, systemically wishes to violate the human rights of my homosexual friends based on nothing more then their religious convictions.
    I advocate equal rights for all people under the law. In the United States, these include rights to life. liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Gay people should be happy. All people should be happy.

    My Church (the one who has defined what the Bible consists of) says that all people are to be loved, and that having homosexual or heterosexual attractions is not sinful. We are each given various "crosses" to carry so that we participate in the saving action Christ took on the cross for our sins. Acting out on sexual desires outside of matrimony (which is a vocation geared towards procreation and bringing up children in the faith) is gravely sinful. Most of us, gays, heterosexuals, and myself have been guilty of sin grave enough that the Holy Spirit cannot work in us until we repent of those sins to Christ. Homosexuals often don't look at the big picture, but instead look at these teachings as if they have been singled out when they have not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    When you see how this effects the lives of those people I can't fathom how anyone could believe that a "higher power" would direct it's followers in that way? Ultimately a god/religion will be judged by it's followers actions not by whats in in the manual.
    Usually what you observe happens because people don't properly understand their own religion or they misinterpret the actions of others. The Bible does not say what you think it does. I challenge you to dig deeper so you can make these determinations on your own.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. bridic#WN's Avatar
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    #149  
    A question to the ones that don't believe in the existence of God...what do you believe started/created the first living thing? Do you believe in the Big Bang...Darwinism? I am just trying to see where everyone is coming from.
  10. #150  
    The universe has always existed and always will. It nether has an end or a beginning. This is what I took away from q-physics anyway.

    I subscribe to the Big Bang as to the current state of the universe until our data says something different.

    Quote Originally Posted by bridic View Post
    A question to the ones that don't believe in the existence of God...what do you believe started/created the first living thing? Do you believe in the Big Bang...Darwinism? I am just trying to see where everyone is coming from.
  11.    #151  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    What? No it wouldn't. Advanced medicine has cured us of that. And besides, that's so not the point.
    I'm not sure what you were responding to here (with the above). If it's important to the conversation, can you please clarify it for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    You can replace homosexual with any other thing that religious groups are hating on. Evolution, eating pork, driving on Sunday, p0rn. It just happens that the hatred of homosexuals was a good example.
    With this part, think I'm better understanding where you want to go (especially in light of Bujin's post). Because Bujin's post cites so many examples, it's probably going to take me a long time to understand the point being made by him and you. I believe there's probably something for me to learn in his post. If either of you can help me along in the meantime this will be appreciated.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. bridic#WN's Avatar
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    #152  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The universe has always existed and always will. It nether has an end or a beginning. This is what I took away from q-physics anyway.

    I subscribe to the Big Bang as to the current state of the universe until our data says something different.
    Have you ever read "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" by Norman L. Geisler & Frank Turek? It is a great book and a great read.

    Many, many things are talked about in the book that I never even thought of. Give it a read and then let me know your thoughts of the universe.

    The book opened my eyes to many things that I have questioned for a very long time. It is not about when the authors believe but provide factual data to back up what they are writing about.
  13.    #153  
    Quote Originally Posted by BARYE View Post
    I wish I could believe -- I really do. But even as a wee monkey BARYE ...
    I think we succeeded in the impossible! In the passion of the momnent, BARYE inadvertently slips out of 3rd person speech. Not only using the "I" word once. but 3 times in one sentence!

    BARYE, It's nice to have a monkey join the conversation. Do you have any thoughts about evolution that you think should be added to the mix here?
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/17/2010 at 02:41 PM. Reason: corrections
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #154  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    With this part, think I'm better understanding where you want to go (especially in light of Bujin's post). Because Bujin's post cites so many examples, it's probably going to take me a long time to understand the point being made by him and you. I believe there's probably something for me to learn in his post. If either of you can help me along in the meantime this will be appreciated.
    My point is that people can choose to believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, or accept that it was written by men, and is thus subject to fallibility and to a reflection of the times. If the former, then you have to accept that all of the prohibitions still hold. If the latter, then it becomes a subjective decision as to which parts of the Bible do not reflect the times in which we currently live.

    For example, why is cutting your beard or getting a tatoo now acceptable, if it's clearly prohibited in the Bible, while the prohibitions against homosexuality not similarly acceptable? Who made that decision?
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  15. #155  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I'm not sure what you were responding to here. If it's important to the conversation, can you please clarify it for me?
    ^^Completely off topic I can assure you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    With this part, think I'm better understanding where you want to go (especially in light of Bujin's post). Because Bujin's post cites so many examples, it's probably going to take me a long time to understand the point being made by him and you. I believe there's probably something for me to learn in his post. If either of you can help me along in the meantime this will be appreciated.
    ^^Disproving the existence of your God is just going to destroy you and I'd hate to be the guy who did that. It is clear by the above, and more so other posts you have made, that you are a very religious individual (all that heavenly father business). Firstly you don't need to defend yourself. You can believe what you want in the USA and many other western nations. I know it will sound disingenuousness when I say this but I mean no disrespect when I say I find your views completely insane. The idea that there are people running the USA with similar ideas scares me half to death. I'm just glad that there is a place I can go back to should things ever get too crazy down here.

    Just like I tell the folks who ring my doorbell every month trying to "save me." Save your breath for the weaker minded, you will be more productive.
  16. #156  
    Quote Originally Posted by bridic View Post
    It is not about when the authors believe but provide factual data to back up what they are writing about.
    There is no "factual" data when it comes to proving the existence of a god.
  17. #157  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    My point is that people can choose to believe that the Bible is the literal word of God, or accept that it was written by men, and is thus subject to fallibility and to a reflection of the times. If the former, then you have to accept that all of the prohibitions still hold. If the latter, then it becomes a subjective decision as to which parts of the Bible do not reflect the times in which we currently live.

    For example, why is cutting your beard or getting a tatoo now acceptable, if it's clearly prohibited in the Bible, while the prohibitions against homosexuality not similarly acceptable? Who made that decision?
    Yep.
    People have a tendency to pick, choose and push upon others, scriptures that happen to coincide with their life or lifestyle so they can feel like they know better than others.
  18. bridic#WN's Avatar
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    #158  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    There is no "factual" data when it comes to proving the existence of a god.
    Please note in my post that I never mentioned anything about God, just that it is a great book with a ton of "factual" information in it.
  19. #159  
    Another common method of trying to use religion against the non-religious. "Being an atheist takes as much faith as being a theist", or the less aggressive version: "Atheism is a belief too", which sometimes dwindles down to: "Atheism is not lack of belief in God, it is the belief that God doesn't exist."

    Quote Originally Posted by bridic View Post
    Please note in my post that I never mentioned anything about God, just that it is a great book with a ton of "factual" information in it.
  20. #160  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Another common method of trying to use religion against the non-religious. "Being an atheist takes as much faith as being a theist", or the less aggressive version: "Atheism is a belief too", which sometimes dwindles down to: "Atheism is not lack of belief in God, it is the belief that God doesn't exist."
    That's very much what i said earlier.
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