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  1. #1561  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I had an argument? lol
    hahah... I meant your signature LOL
  2. #1562  
    I've used his siggy in a couple of my debate replies.
  3. #1563  
    "I believe man made god out of ignorance and fear" - Dead Prez

    If god did exist why did he let ****** put 6million jews in the oven? That wasn't very nice of "him" to let happen...

    It blocked the name but I think we all know the name of the dictator that killed millions of jews.
  4. #1564  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Again, I think you're arguing for the arbitrary nature of the measurement of time. Not time itself.
    No, I'm arguing that if what humans refer to as time cannot be measured or defined outside of arbitrary measurements of other phenomenon which are based on variables which are dependent on their observation, then what we refer to as time is purely a human construct. It is an attempt to understand and put definitions to something that cannot be truly defined.
    As in asking me what time it is.
    As I said, when one really takes the time to think about 'time', one will realize that it only means something to the observer. If physicists who spend all their 'time' thinking about it, consider it to be a purely human construct, why should I consider your observations to be any more weighty.
    The answer is not only arbitrary to this physical universe but also to my specific time zone.
    Or even to the particular clock you're looking at. Or to what you're doing at the time. "Put your hand on a hot stove, a second will seem like forever. Put your hand on a hot woman, forever won't seem long enough."
    But the mere fact that you asked means many things changed. Your thoughts, your finger movements across the keyboard, the movement of electricity and data across space. Those changes occurred within a space-time framework that is completely outside of either of our control.
    And only meaningful within either of our perceptions.
    Our shared reality is this: we're all made up of material that grows and decays. Growth and decay require change. Change requires time.
    How much?
    Recycled billions of what?
    Occurrences or cases. Not the same concept.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  5.    #1565  
    Quote Originally Posted by sketch42 View Post
    heres a link to the book btw.. its a short read
    If Your Were God
    @sketch42, I apologize for not viewing your link or discussing this with you after you wrote it. I'm now in the process of reading Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's article. From what I've read so far, it is really good stuff!!!

    @everyoneReadingThis, I'm not sure how much time I have to participate in this forum right now. I'm "time challenged" in either finding a rewarding job in my current profession or figuring out an alternative profession. I will ask that people please be respectful of others (who may have radically different beliefs than your own). Please "proof read" each of your posts before submitting - in other words, put your mind into the perspective of anyone you are dialoging with and if you don't understand something they are saying, ask for clarification. (I will try and catch up to where this thread has gone in the last couple/few days.

    EDIT: OK, I've scanned what was said in my absence.
    • I guess the first point is that I think all of us missed the initial opportunity to discuss the viewpoints of Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan (which sketch42 had kindly quoted and linked to).
    • Secondly I'm not sure I yet understand how the arguments of whether time is real or not has any effect on whether a deity (who is not governed by time) would exist or not.
    • EDIT: One more topic ("religion" and "worship" being used interchangably): Our 1st Ammendment uses the word "religion" (and I would hope that our government respects our Constitution)!


    I'm glad to see that people have already taken my "advice" (about being respectful) even before I wrote it.

    --
    Bob
    Last edited by sudoer; 09/20/2010 at 09:48 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #1566  
    "Israel’s unique position in accepting God’s Torah will eventually result in the [dissolution] of all competing cultures. It would also temporarily result in Israel’s earning the hatred of these cultures."-If You Were God

    Men write a book inventing a "god" then claim they're "gods" chosen. What a racket. Now they can, with "gods" blessing terminate all competing cultures. Isn't that what "they" claim is islam's modus operandi ? So now I've got two phony "gods" wanting to terminate me ? It just amazes me that in 2010 anybody could still buy into this crap. As Spock used to say "Nowhere am I so desperately needed as among a shipload of illogical humans." (change p in ship to t to get more precise meaning)
  7. #1567  
    I know this is a long thread...
    but..
    Much of these evils by man, and his stupid interpretation of God, has surely been debated.
    Look at the life and ministry of Christ and compare it to the world's religions. Don't dismiss God because of those who claim to represent him.
    For the most part, religion has made a mockery of God.

    But for a moment consider;
    Would the reasons for divisions and strife or even war be gone if religion was taken out of the picture? Would all the nations somehow unite in peace if all were atheists?
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    #1568  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    But for a moment consider;
    Would the reasons for divisions and strife or even war be gone if religion was taken out of the picture? Would all the nations somehow unite in peace if all were atheists?
    Only in Lennon's imagination. However, a cursory examination of human nature and twentieth century history show us the clear answer to this question.
  9. #1569  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Secondly I'm not sure I yet understand how the arguments of whether time is real or not has any effect on whether a deity (who is not governed by time) would exist or not.
    They don't. They are peripherally related in that the existence of 'time' or 'god(s)' are completely dependent upon the perceptions and definitions of man. IOW, I can define how I perceive one or how I think one can be measured and then perhaps work towards proving or disproving its existence within my observations. However, ultimately putting those bounds upon it are purely my construct. If it exists beyond my ability to put bounds on it, my construct can never encompass what it 'is'. That's agnosticism in a nutshell.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  10. Micael's Avatar
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    #1570  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    But for a moment consider;
    Would the reasons for divisions and strife or even war be gone if religion was taken out of the picture? Would all the nations somehow unite in peace if all were atheists?
    As long as there's a impetus or a rallying issue or something to get behind, be it religion, greed, fear, or a hot babe - there will be strife and war.

    Religion is just an excuse.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  11. #1571  
    Im atheist, used to being "shunned" and "attacked" for it but I kind of ignore it and dont really tell anyone unless they ask me, People seem to think right away that because im atheist, Im going to convince them to be as well, but it seems to ALWAYS work out the other way, I just tell em its fine with me if they believe but I dont
  12.    #1572  
    Quote Originally Posted by manordwall View Post
    Im atheist, used to being "shunned" and "attacked" for it ...
    ... I just tell em its fine with me if they believe but I dont
    You've found a very practical strategy. I like to think if it like "I'm 6'2", but that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to be the same". I'm happy to tell people what it's like always bumping my head in low-ceiling rooms, and how being tall is otherwise nice - but just the same - I want to understand what "being different than me" is too.

    While associating (or not) with a religion involves a choice, many people everywhere along the spectrum don't have either the time or resources to make an informed decision. Everyone simply does the best with what they have to work with. I've pondered many of the same questions as many in this thread have asked - such as "What if God is an alien?". (Probably a moot point in my discussion with you .) This discussion really helped me to understand others who have reached differing conclusions from mine. I hope you find this forum to be a safe and open place to both teach and learn from others. Wecome!

    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13.    #1573  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    As long as there's a impetus or a rallying issue or something to get behind, be it religion, greed, fear, or a hot babe - there will be strife and war.

    Religion is just an excuse.
    I'd go as far as to say "as long as we are human, there will be war".
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14.    #1574  
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    They don't. They are peripherally related in that the existence of 'time' or 'god(s)' are completely dependent upon the perceptions and definitions of man. IOW, I can define how I perceive one or how I think one can be measured and then perhaps work towards proving or disproving its existence within my observations. However, ultimately putting those bounds upon it are purely my construct. If it exists beyond my ability to put bounds on it, my construct can never encompass what it 'is'. That's agnosticism in a nutshell.
    If a supreme being (or power, if you want to call it that) always existed, it could exist irrespective of whether we perceive it (Him) or not. If such a being were to exist, he would have to know about time if he created a world for us that includes the concept of time. While we are bound by time, such a being would not necessarily have to be bound by everything that we are.

    I suspect the philosophy behind ideas like the above is mind-bending (to say the least). I haven't studied philosophy (or theology for that matter). Great people over time have devoted their lives to such thought. I'm willing to learn from them (or at least to develop my thinking in the context of what they may have discovered).

    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15. thornev's Avatar
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    #1575  
    Since the origins of existence can only be hypothesized, and it certainly is intriguing to do so, to me the question of the existence of God is irrelevant. However, we got here, we made a mess and what should matter most is how we intend to clean it up.

    I spent an hour talking with Jehovah's Witnesses recently and it seemed all they wanted to do was to get me to inquire into how we got here. It's fine with me whatever people want to believe about the origins of everything. I just don't like it when people use those beliefs for justifying violence or any form of intrusion into others' lives.
  16. #1576  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    If a supreme being (or power, if you want to call it that) always existed,
    Again, that devolves into whether or not 'always' means anything outside of our feeble perceptions and observations.
    it could exist irrespective of whether we perceive it (Him) or not.
    And if it exists outside of our ability to define or observe it, we cannot, by definition, define or determine whether it exists.
    If such a being were to exist, he would have to know about time if he created a world for us that includes the concept of time.
    If such a being were to exist, it would not have to know about time. It could potentially be making up the rules for 'time' as it goes along.
    While we are bound by time, such a being would not necessarily have to be bound by everything that we are.
    Are we bound by time? If we have 'eternal souls', only the flesh we currently occupy is bound by time, and that may only be because we haven't figured out a way to continue the processes that allow our cells to continue without decay, entropy, or non-beneficial mutation.
    ‎"Is that suck and salvage the Kevin Costner method?" - Chris Matthews on Hardball, July 6, 2010. Wonder if he's talking about his oil device or his movie career...
  17.    #1577  
    Quote Originally Posted by lazslo11 View Post
    "Israelís unique position in accepting Godís Torah will eventually result in the [dissolution] of all competing cultures. It would also temporarily result in Israelís earning the hatred of these cultures."-If You Were God
    I'll start my response by saying that I am not Jewish (so I can only "identify" with some of what Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan conveyed in that article). I believe it starts out very sound (with many good ideas) but eventually it gets derailed. I'm still trying to understand exactly where the train seems to have left the tracks! Your quote is one of those areas of his discussion that I feel (at least) "borderline" about. My personal viewpoint is that their theology diverges from mine with respect to whether the Messiah has come or still has yet to come. I'm not sure whether Rabbi Kaplan's views are universally accepted (among most Jews) or not. I do believe there is value in evaluating what [s]he wrote. The points in the article about our purpose for existence and our relationship with God are very apropos. I guess I'd encourage you to "not believe everything you read" but to examine his tracks and see if you can find any truth at all.

    Men write a book inventing a "god" then claim they're "gods" chosen. What a racket. Now they can, with "gods" blessing terminate all competing cultures. Isn't that what "they" claim is islam's modus operandi ?
    I believe you are right to view what they say (minimally) as "arrogant" and I commend you for questioning that viewpoint.

    So now I've got two phony "gods" wanting to terminate me ? It just amazes me that in 2010 anybody could still buy into this crap. As Spock used to say "Nowhere am I so desperately needed as among a shipload of illogical humans." (change p in ship to t to get more precise meaning)
    I believe that religion (when taken seriously) does not have to be illogical. I do believe that most (if not all) humans do not apply due diligence when formulating their religious viewpoints. The end result (in many cases) is that a large number of people are turned off by all this foolishness. Let me add that the God which I understand knows and takes all of these things into account. He is a merciful (yet also just) God. Merciful in that He's not going to hold anyone accountable for things they do not know, yet just regarding those who know his law (even in their hearts) but choose not to live as they are taught.

    So I guess my response to the first line quoted above is "only two? Wow, you are lucky!"

    One more quick comment before I close: If only men wrote the book, then it should fall flat on it's face. If God inspired it, should there be a "referee" that explains and arbitrates on various people's interpretations (or not)? Historically, a Church (using the faith taught by Jesus and the Apostles) has provided this function. When people became confused, they clarified a single teaching and defended and explained why other interpretations were heresy. Today, we have 38.000 groups of Christians each trying to make their own interpret the Bible each somewhat in their own way. Christ did not want this - He wanted a unified Church. Given the sorry state of affairs that is foisted on people in the name of religion, I'm not at all surprised when religion turns people off. (I've been a part of the "turned off" camp so I know what that feels like).

    Thank you for your comments,
    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  18.    #1578  
    Some quick responses (because I have to step out for a while):
    Quote Originally Posted by Toby View Post
    ... And if it exists outside of our ability to define or observe it, we cannot, by definition, define or determine whether it exists. ...
    Unless it somehow gave us information that explains both his existence and purposes. (more on this later, I suspect)

    If such a being were to exist, it would not have to know about time. It could potentially be making up the rules for 'time' as it goes along.
    I'm not sure I'm willing to postulate that he would not know about time. If he exists and created a world which contains time, and he is "all knowing", it only seems logical to me that he would also know about time.

    Are we bound by time? If we have 'eternal souls', only the flesh we currently occupy is bound by time, and that may only be because we haven't figured out a way to continue the processes that allow our cells to continue without decay, entropy, or non-beneficial mutation.
    As an Atheist, you most certainly are bound by time. Are you somehow saying it's possible to not believe in God yet still have a soul? (If so, I'm interested in learning what you might have to say about that.)

    later,
    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19.    #1579  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    As an Atheist, you most certainly are bound by time. ...
    After walking away from the computer, It hit me that I may have reached a false conclusion in the above statement. I believe it's possible for a God to exist and for an Atheist to live eternally in Heaven or Hell (assuming those places really exist), so yes, after this earthly live I believe that each of us will not be bounded by time.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #1580  
    Just read the first page and will maybe pay a return visit to see if anyone replies directly to me, but maybe not. Anyway. Religion is not hogwash at worst. It's OUTRIGHT DANGEROUS at worst. It just takes one crazy fundamentalist (like we love to elect) with his finger on the button to bring about the end so we can all welcome back Jesus or comparable character.

    Also I'm currently holding the opinion that in this modern age our social systems are in desperate need of SIGNIFICANT redesign if we're not going to destroy the planet and ourselves. Organized religion has a vested interest (MONEY MONEY MONEY! POWER POWER POWER!) in keeping everything exactly the same. (Jesus will save us. We don't have to.)

    Religion flies airplanes into buildings.

    There were multiple deaths in the middle east on account of some stupid guy saying he was planning on burning some paper.

    Murders over cartoons.

    I'm gonna sign off here. I have to find the remote so I can mute this political ad for this guy who wants to illegalize birth control. Wonder where he would have gotten that idea...

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