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  1. #1401  
    The Dr. Laura letter is a good example of why god does not exist. It highlights Christian polices formulated back when god was doing all that communicating that it so abruptly stopped. A supernatural being that "loves" us would never think this way. Like someone said above, these are stories written long long ago. Why on earth would we take 2000 year old stories and try and live our lives by those rules or examples?

    Riley is fishing to understand why God was willing to do away with J e w ish precepts
    I already know why. God is a creation of man, therefor it does what we want it to, man wanted a shift so we made one. If God was real it wouldn't need to change it's policies mid stream. God would have made the correct choices the first time around like all other omnipotent beings and we would all be J e wish.
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  2. #1402  
    Didn't want to clutter up the dev threads, but I need 10 posts to see dev links. Pardon the intrusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I already know why. God is a creation of man, therefor it does what we want it to, man wanted a shift so we made one. If God was real it wouldn't need to change it's policies mid stream. God would have made the correct choices the first time around like all other omnipotent beings and we would all be J e wish.
    You are assuming the human knowledge and understanding of the Christian god up until the point of the "shift" was perfect. If we can agree that our understanding of God could never be perfect (which is reasonable), then a "shift" becomes a better understanding in sum of God rather than a gear grinding shift that it appears to be.

    /I'm agnostic, just sayin
  3. #1403  
    did anyone hear about the recent scandal w/ the Vatican!?!?!?
    Male prostitute rings (I may have part of this wrong) using choir boys and male models and others for some Cardinals!!!
    And the current Pope was covering up for a German priest who was having gay sex with a choir boy! And more... Im going to read more up on this...
    Its stuff like this that makes me question religion and the Bible. Stuff like this is going on now in the Highest position of the "Church", and the world is much more civil now then 100's to 1,000's of years ago!
    It reminds me of a quote I heard a long time ago
    "Religion is Fraud, because Man is Fraud"
    You have the Pope! The Freakin POPE covering up for things, what else are/have "They" covered/ing up, hiding, changed/ing, altered/ing.... These are our "closest people to God"!
    Last edited by gsonspre; 03/18/2010 at 10:27 AM.
  4.    #1404  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    did anyone hear about the recent scandal w/ the Vatican!?!?!?
    Jesuit priest (Peter Hullermann, about 31 years old at the time) was accused of sexual abuse of an 11 year old boy in 1980. This abuse occurred in the city of Essen, and Joseph Ratzinger (then archbishop of diocese of Munich and Freising accepted transfer of this priest and approved housing a housing assignment during this man's therapy. Two years later (after Ratzinger had been since transferred to the Vatican), Monsignor Josef Obermaier assigned Hullermann to pastoral duties in a Bavarian town. Four years after this (in 1986) Hullermann received a suspended jail sentence for sexually abusing children. It's clear that Obermaier dropped the ball here allowing Hullermann back into any pastoral duties. It's also clear Ratzinger (currently Pope Benedict XVI) did absolutely nothing wrong or out of the order, and is/was in no way involved in any "cover up".

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    • Male prostitute rings (I may have part of this wrong) using choir boys and male models and others for some Cardinals!!!
    • And the current Pope was covering up for a German priest who was having gay sex with a choir boy! And more
    W T F ??? Sources???

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    ... Im going to read more up on this...
    Please do. I've read several articles in order to piece together and report what actually happened in my first paragraph above.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Its stuff like this that makes me question religion and the Bible.
    I don't think the Bible condones any of those practices. Questioning "religion" is normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Stuff like this is going on now in the Highest position of the "Church", and the world is much more civil now then 100's to 1,000's of years ago!
    It reminds me of a quote I heard a long time ago
    "Religion is Fraud, because Man is Fraud"
    You have the Pope! The Freakin POPE covering up for things, what else are/have "They" covered/ing up, hiding, changed/ing, altered/ing.... These are our "closest people to God"!
    There are no signs of cover up here. Just irresponsible and assumptive reporting that either does not check or does not state all the facts.

    In spite of the Pope having no involvement in this scandal, it rightfully angers all of us when people are abused. People like Hullermann are causing irreparable harm to both their victims and the Church. I pray that all such abusers may be caught and exposed for the charlatans who they are. I pray that good and holy people do not suffer for things they did not do. Please be sure to read each article critically (and read from several sources and know the potential bias of each source).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5.    #1405  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The Dr. Laura letter is a good example of why god does not exist.
    Funny! The article just showed me that the writer did not understand the Bible, or did understand, and was simply trying (in an ignorant sort of way) trying to "stir up trouble".

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    It highlights Christian polices formulated back when god was doing all that communicating that it so abruptly stopped. A supernatural being that "loves" us would never think this way.
    Now you are proving your own lack of understanding. (As I said before, in your case, being "invincibly ignorant" is a good thing for you.)

    I'm also going to have to ask you to restate/expand what you meant above. (I can't respond when I don't fully understand what you are trying to say.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Like someone said above, these are stories written long long ago. Why on earth would we take 2000 year old stories and try and live our lives by those rules or examples?
    These words are claimed by the Church to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. The New Testament writings are based on the incarnate word of God as Jesus Christ. If these claims are true, then this would be the reason to believe and follow them.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #1406  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Jesuit priest (Peter Hullermann, about 31 years old at the time) was accused of sexual abuse of an 11 year old boy in 1980. This abuse occurred in the city of Essen, and Joseph Ratzinger (then archbishop of diocese of Munich and Freising accepted transfer of this priest and approved housing a housing assignment during this man's therapy. Two years later (after Ratzinger had been since transferred to the Vatican), Monsignor Josef Obermaier assigned Hullermann to pastoral duties in a Bavarian town. Four years after this (in 1986) Hullermann received a suspended jail sentence for sexually abusing children. It's clear that Obermaier dropped the ball here allowing Hullermann back into any pastoral duties. It's also clear Ratzinger (currently Pope Benedict XVI) did absolutely nothing wrong or out of the order, and is/was in no way involved in any "cover up".


    W T F ??? Sources???


    Please do. I've read several articles in order to piece together and report what actually happened in my first paragraph above.....


    Please be sure to read each article critically (and read from several sources and know the potential bias of each source).
    Absolutely
    I saw last night on the news that a Cardinal was being tried (and I believe admitted to) hiring and organizing males for a prostitute ring. He asked the individuals (they did not know he was a Cardinal) to not speak of it bc he was married but he was hiding from them that he was a Cardinal of the Church... I will find an article and try to link it.

    Wasnt Peter Hullermann still "practicing" for 20 years with multiple "incidents" before he was suspended though?
    Last edited by gsonspre; 03/18/2010 at 06:47 PM.
  7. #1407  
    Here are 2 links. I apologize about saying it was set up by a Cardinal he was titled as a "Gentleman of the Holiness" and someone from the Vatican Choir

    Vatican Hit By Gay Sex Scandal
    Gay News Watch | Papal aide, Vatican men's choir in gay prostitution ring
  8.    #1408  
    @gsonspre,
    I'm doing unrelated study (and volunteer work) at the moment. I'll try and check out the links above (hopefully sometime tomorrow).

    Hullermann appears to have been moved into "tourism" ministry. He was definitely ordered to stay away from children and youth. He appears to have violated those restrictions by participating in (at least one or more) youth masses. One it was discovered he was violating his ministry restrictions, he was rightly suspended from all ministry activities. It appears to me that the Church is doing the right thing and not covering anything up here. (I'm not defending Hullermann's actions in any way.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #1409  
    @sudoer take your time with your response.
    I am not neccasarily looking for answers or how the Church is handling this. Im confident that they are addressing this situation as well as many others including new laws(?) directed towards Ireland's last incident.
    I have no issue respecting peoples faith and the faith of any religion (scientology still in deep questioning for me!).
    My concern is that soo many people "blindly" follow a "front". How many people viewed these "Fatherly" offenders as men of God!? To carry out the words of God, which they did, but can not practice what they preach. It really disheartens me inside. The fraud one would use and to use God's and Jesus' name to validate their own actions. I can almost guarantee that after these people do these God Awful things they pray! They pray for their sins to be cleansed and they do it again. Religion and religious power is abused and taken advantage of. I know its not all religious preachers but I read (my #'s may be wrong) something like 3-6,ooo criminal cases have been made in the past 10 years, (I will look for the reference soon) towards persons of the church.
    I have to go now, I just needed to get some of this off my chest, even though I didnt finish getting my point across/rant. But I may not look into this further bc it truly sickens me, I expect this from a PD but not from people carrying on "the words of God"
  10.    #1410  
    I'm learning a little bit about Genesis chapters 1 though 11 from this guy who is speaking at one of my friend's church. I'm only going to attend two our of four of his lectures. (I missed the first night and I'll miss the Sunday lecture.) Last night's lecture mostly discussed the creation account in Genesis chapter 1. It's pretty amazing to hear someone speak who did his PhD on Genesis 1-11. I'll try and write up a summary of any insights that may help the doubtful here to understand the Bible.

    Last night's talk analyzed the paragraph/sentence structure of each "day" of creation and also identified some "hints" (foreshadowing) of how creation was not "perfect". I was enlightened by some things in these simple passages that I never noticed before. The professor's conclusion turned out to be exactly the same as mine (which is substantially different from what a person might normally conclude about the meaning of this passage from a "simple reading".

    I'm not sure what tonight's talk will be about or even if it will be as "good" (useful to me) as last nights talk. I promise to summarize last night's lecture because it shows why God created us rather than the simple "how" we were created.

    I hope everyone is outside enjoying the beautiful weather that God has given us this weekend!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #1411  
    Thank for the update and I appreciate you continuing your education on any front! Wish I would just bucker up and go to some lectures of interest for myself.

    So I am reading an atricle from Time and they interviewed Hollinger's therapist... Pretty interesting! there is 1 part that mentions the Pope (Archbishop at the time) where Church officials were confronted and advised by his therapist that he should not be practicing.... But he still carried on and abused children after a psychiatric warning! (Granted he did disobey Church orders after a prison sentence but no one checked up on him?)

    Father H's Story: Germany's Pedophile Priest Scandal - TIME

    It was pretty weird, the other night, when I heard this news and read more about it and read multiple articles of other cases of abuse and scandal. I was laying in bed trying to go to sleep and just had this hard hit of depression. You all know by now I am not religious but the feeling I was having had me lose any and all faith i never had in religion (not God). It was weird it felt like I was religious and just lost it all... Best I can explain it, it was the complete opposite of one that had their "experience" of finding Jesus....

    Anyway, I still look forward to hear of your findings Sudoer and am hoping the thread will catch its second wind and pick up again, I really enjoyed it!
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    #1412  
    About the Dr. Laura thing, clearly it was an attempt by either a non-believer or moderate Christian (and likely a homosexual) to illustrate that the Old Testament laws are ridiculous and do not relate to today's society. Many say, "they applied to the time." As Xerlot stated, there may be ceremonial law and moral law, and ceremonial law may change, but does moral law change? There are many areas of the Bible that have questionable morals. Shouldn't there be some absolute morals that don't change from the Bronze Age to the 21st century? Isn't slavery wrong? Wait, both the Old and New Testament permit slavery (Peter 2:18) Are religious wars wrong? Why were they OK in the Old testament but not in the New?

    And did Jesus completely reset the moral compass from the bloodbath of the Old Testament to "turn the other cheek"? The evidence suggests not: 1)"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17 2)Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
  13. #1413  
    Another interesting read touching base on a little more of the "scandals"

    The Catholic Church: Sins of the Fathers - TIME
    Last edited by gsonspre; 03/20/2010 at 05:34 PM.
  14.    #1414  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Thank for the update and I appreciate you continuing your education on any front! Wish I would just bucker up and go to some lectures of interest for myself.
    Unfortunately finding intelligent people who can communicate their understanding is not always easy, and then there's the other small issue of "whether their read is correct". I think I've been extremely lucky recently to find people who study the entire word and do a whole lot less "cherry picking" of verses than I usually find. Some of the resources I'm using are Catholic and others aren't. I seem to be lucky enough to understand when they are telling me something that is doctrinally different than what my Church teaches.

    You mentioned some "religious" people in your GF's family. Assuming you and the GF ever become committed, they'll likely be good people to guide you into a faith that your GF will likely be comfortable with.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    So I am reading an atricle from Time and they interviewed Hollinger's therapist... Pretty interesting! there is 1 part that mentions the Pope (Archbishop at the time) where Church officials were confronted and advised by his therapist that he should not be practicing.... But he still carried on and abused children after a psychiatric warning! (Granted he did disobey Church orders after a prison sentence but no one checked up on him?)
    I understand your anger and the shock and feeling of betrayment you are feeling. (Not firsthand, but I see the exact same thing in my wife and kids.) I've learned to be patient with them and to trust God in finding a way to eventually make things "right" again. I've learned that "forcing people down a religious path" never works and that I have to respect other people's free will the same way that God respects mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    ... I was laying in bed trying to go to sleep and just had this hard hit of depression. You all know by now I am not religious but the feeling I was having had me lose any and all faith i never had in religion (not God). It was weird it felt like I was religious and just lost it all... Best I can explain it, it was the complete opposite of one that had their "experience" of finding Jesus....
    Thanks for this explanation. My Church seems to teach that there is "redemptive value" in suffering. This might feel like very little consolation right now, but this is what I meant when I said some things happen "for our development". In effect, you are experiencing these effects due to sins of other people. You don't "deserve" any of the pain from what others have done - yet you have to "deal" with it. If you can think of this pain in a similar way to "helping a lady across the street", you'll be able to accept it sort of like you're "absorbing some of the evil back out of the world". I'm not sure what I'm trying will make any sense or not - but I just wanted to share my thoughts in case it does.

    -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15. Dic Doc's Avatar
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    #1415  
    sudoer, something of interest for you may be a book entitled "101 Myths of the Bible", I think by a man named Greenberg. Nowhere in the book is the question of whether God exists or not brought up. It looks at the Bible as a historical document and shows how many of the stories are drawn from other mythology. The reader is left to draw his or her own conclusion. I think at a minimum one has to recognize that the Bible is not literal after reading this.
  16. #1416  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    These words are claimed by the Church to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. The New Testament writings are based on the incarnate word of God as Jesus Christ. If these claims are true, then this would be the reason to believe and follow them.
    It's that incarnate magic that I have some big issues with. Using this for/as proof of something would be rejected outright in any other situation.
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  17. #1417  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    It's that incarnate magic that I have some big issues with.
    What do you mean?
  18.    #1418  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Like someone said above, these are stories written long long ago. Why on earth would we take 2000 year old stories and try and live our lives by those rules or examples?
    These words are claimed by the Church to have been inspired by the Holy Spirit. The New Testament writings are based on the incarnate word of God as Jesus Christ. If these claims are true, then this would be the reason to believe and follow them.
    It's that incarnate magic that I have some big issues with. Using this for/as proof of something would be rejected outright in any other situation.
    Your splicing of the words "incarnate" and "magic" together in a sentence is nothing more than "spin". The Old Testament prophets predicted the coming of Christ in a place, of a genealogy, and for a specified purpose that was fulfilled in the New Testament writings that are corroborated with history. It's not magic - it's a hypothesis that I'm asking you to consider and evaluate. People have been waiting for 2000 or so years for this to be debunked and we're still waiting.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19.    #1419  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    What do you mean?
    Hopefully my assumptions on what he meant will make what he said more clear. I don't want to assume to much about what he means, but discussion would grind to a halt if I don't make at least some clarifying assumptions on my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    The Dr. Laura letter is a good example of why god does not exist. It highlights Christian polices formulated back when god was doing all that communicating that it so abruptly stopped. A supernatural being that "loves" us would never think this way. Like someone said above, these are stories written long long ago. Why on earth would we take 2000 year old stories and try and live our lives by those rules or examples?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    ...
    I'm also going to have to ask you to restate/expand what you meant above. (I can't respond when I don't fully understand what you are trying to say.)
    I'm still waiting for you to explain what you meant by "communicating that it so abruptly stopped". (Thanks)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #1420  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I'm still waiting for you to explain what you meant by "communicating that it so abruptly stopped". (Thanks)
    God stopped literally speaking to people or via people.
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