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  1.    #121  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    4 or 42 or 4200 I don't see the difference. I highly doubt the universe has room for more than one supreme being.....if such a thing were possible.
    I appreciate where you are going with your logic and maybe we should explore your thought a bit more. To me, it's logical that we we were to postulate the existence of a supreme being, "supreme" would certainly imply only a single God. Proceeding with this postulate, if that being is truly "supreme" compared with ourselves, it's possible that as humans we sometimes (often?) "fill in" our incomplete understanding with false or unproven beliefs. Developing our understanding of this being (assuming one exists) requires the same level of rigor and science as is done with our observations of the physical world.

    In the case of "divine inspiration", Judeau-Christians believe God has revealed some (enough for us) of His divine nature through the prophets and writings of the Old Testament and through Jesus and the Word he taught to his Apostles. People have dedicated their lives to understanding the theological meaning behind the complete/collective message of the Bible and the Apostolic deposit of faith. (Many non-Catholics may dispute the Apostolic deposit of faith. We can leave this point aside for now.) The bottom line is that your logic about "more than one God" flies squarely in the face against the notion of a supreme being. The next questions you should ask are:
    1. Is it possible at least one of these "God"s is the right one?
    2. Is it possible that many people have differing understandings of a same God?
    3. Why would God not just "set the record straight"?

    I'd argue it is more illogical to dismiss the existence of a God than to rule out the possibility that one exists. Point #2 seems entirely logical and possible to me. Point #3 is portrayed throughout the entire Bible and is commonly referred to as "Salvation History". I believe you can put the Bible up against any other book in history and find it can better withstand the test of time and theological challenges from other faiths. I could well be wrong about using the Bible as revelation from God, but I don't see myself as "loosing anything" by at least "trying it out" and subjecting it to my own logic and scrutiny. Granted, I'm far from the smartest person in the world, but I've found no reason yet (other than pride) to not accept this book as what it claims to be. If a God exists and has given us both the universe and his Word, logic would indicate that the two can't/shouldn't contradict each other. I haven't see the contradictions yet. Perhaps I'm just still waiting for someone to make a better argument. (Your serve.)
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  2. #122  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I believe you can put the Bible up against any other book in history and find it can better withstand the test of time and theological challenges from other faiths.
    I have some Muslim Friends that would likely disagree with this opinion.
  3. #123  
    Quote Originally Posted by RPFTW View Post
    Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

    Your "teapot" god is a SHAM!!! The truth lies HERE


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  4. #124  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    In the case of "divine inspiration", Judeau-Christians believe God has revealed some (enough for us) of His divine nature through the prophets and writings of the Old Testament and through Jesus and the Word he taught to his Apostles.
    So God spoke to someone, who wrote it down (supposedly word for word, without spicing it up a bit) in a book and I should base my life around those writings? No thanks.

    Please, please, please consider what you are saying here. What if I clamed to be in contact with God? What if I wrote some of our conversations down? What if I said that God wants you to kill your wife if she cheats on you or hate same sex couples? Would you listen to me? Nope. Because I would be a crazy person.
  5. #125  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    So God spoke to someone, who wrote it down (supposedly word for word, without spicing it up a bit) in a book and I should base my life around those writings? No thanks.

    Please, please, please consider what you are saying here. What if I clamed to be in contact with God? What if I wrote some of our conversations down? What if I said that God wants you to kill your wife if she cheats on you or hate same sex couples? Would you listen to me? Nope. Because I would be a crazy person.
    If you speak to god, your religious. if god speaks to you, your psychotic.
  6. #126  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    So God spoke to someone, who wrote it down (supposedly word for word, without spicing it up a bit) in a book and I should base my life around those writings? No thanks.

    Please, please, please consider what you are saying here. What if I clamed to be in contact with God? What if I wrote some of our conversations down? What if I said that God wants you to kill your wife if she cheats on you or hate same sex couples? Would you listen to me? Nope. Because I would be a crazy person.
    I'm going to the PC side of this forum (mobile now) just to "thank" you for this post.
  7. Xerlot's Avatar
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    #127  
    You're are correct but God never leads people do do things which are agenst his nature. God's great truths are love your God, and Love your neighbor. So if a god told you to kill someone I can be clear and tell you it was not the God of the Bible. And yes you would be crazy. You will never find in the New Testament God telling people to kill anyone.
  8.    #128  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I have some Muslim Friends that would likely disagree with this opinion.
    I'm happy to learn from them through a discussion. Do you think you could encourage some of them to participate here?
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  9. #129  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    So God spoke to someone, who wrote it down (supposedly word for word, without spicing it up a bit) in a book and I should base my life around those writings? No thanks.

    Please, please, please consider what you are saying here. What if I clamed to be in contact with God? What if I wrote some of our conversations down? What if I said that God wants you to kill your wife if she cheats on you or hate same sex couples? Would you listen to me? Nope. Because I would be a crazy person.
    the proof is in the pudding so to speak . If you knew God and served him . There would be actions (faith can be seen as action)in your life that prove it . Actions speak louder than words . But always remember this , we all make mistakes no matter what . Just because we are christian does not exempt us . But the next time you accuse anyone of something, stop and look back on your own life and you will see that you've been there to lol. And if not you soon will be.ha ha !
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    #130  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Uhmm, ya. Much like god and other "faith required" beliefs, I need to believe in order for it to be.
    So nothing exists that you do not believe in? Throughout history, there have been so many "beliefs" that were eventually proven to be facts. The more complex the belief, the longer it will take to prove or disprove it. Denying the existence of something simply because you cannot prove it does not put you on a very good footing to find the truth, does it?
  11. #131  
    New edition, old edition, the hate is the same to my homosexual friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    You're are correct but God never leads people do do things which are agenst his nature. God's great truths are love your God, and Love your neighbor. So if a god told you to kill someone I can be clear and tell you it was not the God of the Bible. And yes you would be crazy. You will never find in the New Testament God telling people to kill anyone.
  12. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #132  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Existance of a soul does not prove the existance of God, as you define 'him'.
    True enough. But, if one does believe in a soul, it does get the discussion going in that direction.
  13. #133  
    I was referring to "faith" in a religious context. So by it's very nature it does not exist if I'm not believing in it. Similar parallel to an imaginary friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    So nothing exists that you do not believe in? Throughout history, there have been so many "beliefs" that were eventually proven to be facts. The more complex the belief, the longer it will take to prove or disprove it. Denying the existence of something simply because you cannot prove it does not put you on a very good footing to find the truth, does it?
  14. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #134  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    New edition, old edition, the hate is the same to my homosexual friends.
    You obviously don't know much about Christianity, or at least Catholicism. To suggest that they, as a whole, "Hate" homosexuals would be incorrect.

    But, this is probably not helpful for the subject at hand. I'll refrain from continuing this path.....lest the whole thread gets thrown off.
  15.    #135  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    So God spoke to someone, who wrote it down (supposedly word for word, without spicing it up a bit) in a book and I should base my life around those writings? No thanks.
    Let me clarify that the human authors wrote what they wrote on their own. These writings are believed to be divinely inspired (meaning that God was using the writers to write his message). I understand where you might find this unacceptable or illogical and that's your prerogative.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Please, please, please consider what you are saying here. What if I [claimed] to be in contact with God? What if I wrote some of our conversations down? What if ...
    Then you would be like numerous other religions and sects that have sprung up through history. I'd have a difficult time believing you unless your theology gave me a more complete understanding of logic outside of the physical world than what the Bible offers.

    That's a pretty difficult assignment: First you have to find existing writings throughout history that indicate you are to come, then you have to come, be of the genealogy that your prophets predict, you have to be in the right town, you have to communicate a message consistent with the that of your prophets (that illuminates their writings), then you have to persuade those of your contempraries' religion to kill you, then you have to raise yourself from the dead and ascend into Heaven on your own power. Oh yeah, you also have to make sure the rest of history cannot see through your evil plot and defeat it. Be sure and post back here about how it all goes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    ... What if I said that God wants you to kill your wife if she cheats on you or hate same sex couples?
    You'd also have to cook up a batch of kool-aid. Let me know when the party's gonna' start! Where your two specific questions rhetorical or did you have some deeper meaning behind using these two examples?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Would you listen to me? Nope. Because I would be a crazy person.
    How does the argument that I would not listen to you, a crazy person, have anything to do with why I would or would not believe based on what's written in the Bible? (You can probably make an argument here, just keep it factual, well reasoned, and respectful of others.) Thanks.
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    #136  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I was referring to "faith" in a religious context. So by it's very nature it does not exist if I'm not believing in it. Similar parallel to an imaginary friend.
    You were speaking of the existence of a soul. Is the existence of a soul strictly a religious belief?
  17. #137  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The Nat'l Academy of Science surveys indeed indicate that roughly 7% of scientists are believers. From Nature:

    Nature, "Leading scientists still reject God" July 23, 1998
    20 percent agnostic.... which means that they don't believe one way or the other. Interesting stat.
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  18. #138  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Is the existence of a soul strictly a religious belief?
    Yep. The only soul I might agree exists would be a figurative one at best. As in using it as a noun to refer to the collection of emotions in my brain. But once I'm dead that would no longer be possable as my brain would be off.
  19.    #139  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    New edition, old edition, the hate is the same to my homosexual friends.
    The conversation in this thread is going faster than I can humanly keep up with at the moment. I can only respond to selected posts as a result.

    I'm not sure the Bible says to hate homosexuals. It does say homosexual acts are wrong, it also says that heterosexual acts outside of marriage is just as wrong. Our Father gives us his word to help guide us in this life so that we may be with Him in the next. This same God tells us we will be given no temptation beyond our strength (although I've often proven myself not even willing to test my own strength). Are you willing to state whether you are homosexual or heterosexual? (Sorry if that's a personal question, but I have friends who are homosexual too, but I am not.) EDIT: I would just like to acknowledge where you are and move on as you need.
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  20. #140  
    erudite stuff...

    I wish I could believe -- I really do. But even as a wee monkey BARYE was a skeptic. When he was 5 he asked his papa: "if god made us -- who made god ??"

    (to me, belief in a god is analogous to the willingness to believe that a former European monarch needs a trusted human to whom he would pay a commission of 10 million Euros for their help in regaining access to his secret hoard of billions (and you'd only need to pay the modest transfer fees...PM me if you're interested...)
    Last edited by BARYE; 02/17/2010 at 01:34 PM.
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