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  1. #1361  
    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Shadow-360

    I will answer your comments.
    And now i will answer yours

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I was refering to the specific video you posted where the legitimacy of the bible was questioned because it says earth was created in 6 days while the quran also says 6 days but the word 'day' in there can have different meanings.
    Ahh apologies. However, that being said, my point still stands. The Quran does include the word 'day' (which is totally subjective, day on earth is 24 hours, in space its relative). Before i state the below, i want to make a point, that you cant fault the quran in regards to the creation of the earth, but with regards to the bible, there are apparant inconsistencies (see video you mentioned).

    Now, to solve the apparant inconsistency of 'day' in the Quran, again, scientifically, i have no reason to assume. That's the beauty;

    Cosmologists estimate the age of the universe as 16-17 billion years. The Quran states that the entire universe was created in six days. These two time frames, which may seem contradictory, are actually surprisingly compatible. In fact, both these figures concerning the age of the universe are correct. In other words, the universe was created in six days, as revealed in the Quran, and this period corresponds to 16-17 billion years in the way that we experience time.

    The six-day period revealed in the Quran can be thought of as six periods. Because, taking into account the relativity of time, a "day" refers only to a 24-hour period experienced on Earth under current conditions. Elsewhere in the universe, however, at another time and under other conditions, a "day" could refer to a much longer period of time. Indeed, the word "ayyamin" in the period of six days (sittati ayyamin) in these verses (Quran 32:4, 10:3, 11:7, 25:59, 57:4, 50:38, and 7:54) means not only "days," but also "age, period, moment, term."

    The energy at the moment of the Big Bang slowed down the flow of time 1012 (one million million) times. When the universe was created the speed of universal time was higher up to a million million times, as time is experienced today. In other words, a million million minutes on Earth is the equivalent of just one minute in universal time.

    When a six-day period of time is calculated according to the relativity of time, it equates to six million million (six trillion) days. That is because universal time flows a million million times faster than time on Earth. Calculated in terms of years, 6 trillion days equates to approximately 16.427 billion years. This is within the estimated range for the age of the universe.

    6,000,000,000,000 days/365.25 = 16.427104723 billion years

    So, When we calculate every day of creation in terms of Earth time, the following situation emerges:

    -Looked at from the moment when time began, the first day of creation (first phase) lasted 24 hours. This period, however, is the equivalent of 8 billion years in Earth terms.

    -The second day of creation (second phase) lasted 24 hours. This, however, lasted half as long, in our terms, as the preceding day, in other words 4 billion years.

    -The third day (third phase) lasted half as long as the second day, in other words 2 billion years.

    -The fourth day (fourth phase) lasted 1 billion years.

    -The fifth day (fifth phase) lasted 500 million years.

    -And the sixth day (sixth phase) lasted 250 million years.

    Conclusion: When the six days of creation, in other words the six phases, are added together in Earth terms, the resulting figure is 15 billion 750 million years. This figure displays an enormous parallel with modern-day estimations.

    This conclusion is one of the facts revealed by 21st century science. Science has once again confirmed a fact revealed in the Quran 1400 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    It's extremely vague and extremely biased to try to make a point that the quran is more 'accurate' scientifically than the bible, first because science never said that earth was created in 6 long periods of anything
    I just did, and it was accurate. Yes, science didnt say earth was created in 6 long periods of anything, The bible did yes, but the Quran does not;

    Your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then settled Himself firmly on the Throne... (Qur'an, 7:54)

    The above quote coincides with the point about 6 periods just made. Heavens and the earth refers to the universe, btw.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Catholic's day lasts 24h. I'm not trying to defend the bible, I believe, which is obvious, that both are wrong.
    I'm pretty sure that applies to all humans living on the earth. I know you're not, youre atheist am i correct? You proved the bible is wrong, Quran you have yet to come up with undeinable proofs, not quick google hogwash's.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I had to google a bit but I've found this: 'Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out (like a carpet); set thereon Mountains firm and immovable';
    Well, so the earth is flat like a carpet and it hangs from immovable mountains? Allah just beated Eisntein with this one
    That's subjective, and it's taken out of context, look at one of my earlier posts. This quote is from a section of the Quran detailing the geological nature of the Earth.

    Mountains don't move, it's a well documented fact and theyre crucial to the stability of the earth, the 'carpet' as you refer to (it doesnt mention carpet in the quran btw) is the crust.

    Pardon me for asking, but is it not possible to place a carpet on a curved surface? What if i had a long carpet stretching from the front of me all the way across the world meeting to the back of me?

    Your idealogy of a carpet is something which is rectangular i'm presuming? And youre telling me about subjective and biased answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    'Quran 18: 86 Till, when he (the traveller Zul-qarnain) reached the setting-place of the Sun, he found it going down into a muddy spring…' 'Quran 18: 90 Till, when he reached the rising-place of the Sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it.'
    So the sun has a setting place and a rising place? Hum... probably because the earth is flat right?
    Urgh, if youre going to quote and make a point, then use it in context, and please read some islamic history before apparently finding contradictions

    'Till, when he [the traveller Zul-qarnain] reached the setting-place of the sun,
    he found it going down into a muddy spring, .. Quran 18:86"

    ^^^ He went at a place at the time when sun was setting. there was a muddy spring and it appeared to him that the sun was setting in the muddy pool. Allah is talking about him that what he assumed. who will read the context?

    If I tell you I am dying of thirst, will you call me a liar, or will have the intelligence to understand I am speaking figuratively? What if I say the starry sky moves me, does that mean I'm getting pushed around? I am sure you can not really be this dense

    'Till, when he reached the rising-place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We had appointed no shelter from it. Quran 18:90

    ^^^ He reached a civilization which was in the east. it has been called as the place of rising sun (figuratively, i'm sure you dont see scientists up in arms about the name because it isnt 'scientifically correct'). They use to live in the open grounds. they didn't live in houses. they didn't even wear clothes. the sun rays could directly fall on their nude bodies.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    'Quran 31: 29 Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day and He merges Day into Night; That He has subjected the sun and moon (to His law), each running its course for a term (time) appointed.
    On the contrary this contradicts your point. If the Night merges into the day and day merges into the night then this is saying that this is clearly implying a spherical shape. if its flat, say at one side, theres point A, the far side, its point B, please explain how they could merge?

    Urgh, again, believing what you want to believe. If i let a flower, run its own course. Does that mean to say the flower is literally going to move? No, i think not.It refer's to letting it be for its life cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Quran 21: 33 It is He who created The Night and Day, And the Sun and Moon; each of them Swim (float) along in its own course.'
    The quote above is wrong, it's "And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit. S. 21:33"

    I wouldnt trust websites which purposely twist information against the truth, so people like you who deny could use as ammo, no?

    Oh btw, i found the quote you mentioned only on two sites, one is a facebook stating 'I wipe my *** with the Quran' and the other from an unknown blog called 'Quranic Erroneous Science and Contradictions!'

    Case closed on that account. need i say any more?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    You do realize that ALL your interpretations of the quran are subjective and biased? Some passages are plain scientifically wrong and the ones you try to say are correct are totally subject to interpretation and biased feelings towards your specific religion.
    Are they? Funny, because i would have said the same about yours, and besides, i've proved every single one of your points null and void.

    Islam is not my religion, i am merely studying each one (in depth) to find the truth and not being ignorant, Quran has yet to disappoint on that front.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I'm not saying that the quran is wrong and the bilble is right or vice-versa
    Well you could have fooled me

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I'm just saying that believing in the quran instead of the bible because it's 'supposedly' more 'scientifically' accurate is just plain silly
    How? You fail to prove your point.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    That idea just died and it only took 5min and google to do it
    Yeah, it really shows believe me!

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Religion is based on faith, not science, and there's a logic for that because if it was science there would be no religion in the world today.
    That's your view of religion, which is exactly why youre atheist (im presuming). Quran wise, its a religion which is scientifically coherent where others fail.

    Did i say it was science? Only scientifically coherent. Why cant it be a religion. It seems to me you just cant stand your ideolgy of religion being quashed because one significant religion is scientifically coherent (again) and thus fundamentally showing gaping holes in your logic.

    No, actually, scratch that, Science confirms the words of the Quran.

    Whew, i'm done . Apologies if i was offensive.
    Last edited by Adam Carr; 03/11/2010 at 04:08 PM.
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  2. #1362  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Comparing the trinity to a (non-living) molecule seemed "impersonal". It didn't seem weird from an "intellectual" sense, but I never in my life ever heard any Christian describe the trinity using that analogy. The question/analogy felt like a "set-up" for Dr. Zakir to answer (rather than a legitimate characterization of what Christians understand).
    I'm not sure on the 'set-up' part, but that's your personal opinion, and i respect you for that . You are also a christian, i am not, so your opinion values more. But sometimes it seems the best way to go around things intellectually, whereas with discussing from ones perspective, it's an endless circle dont you think? Trying to 'debunk' trinity from a logical point of view seems the best way to go? Afterall, that's how everything is analysed now, and it's a good method (so to speak).


    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I know I'm not the most qualified to answer this, so I might try and see if I can "phone a friend" (a non-Catholic Christian) who knows this area much better than me. Whether or not he's willing to help me (either by coaching or by answering directly) I will research and provide you the best explanation/understanding of this as I can. (If others want to jump in and explain things, you are welcome, and I will add to the discussion where I can.)
    Thankyou, i would very much appreciate that, however please don't go to the trouble. I must admit though the concept of trinity is one thing which i found during research to be 'a wall' so to speak in helping me understand the bible and i have to admit one which initially moved me away from it's teachings. If you have anything which could change this for me, then it would be most welcome.

    Did you watch his other videos btw? If so what do you think of them?

    You stated that 'not quite there yet' in having doubts with regards to the bible. What would 'make you there', so to speak?
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  3.    #1363  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    ... Trying to 'debunk' trinity from a logical point of view seems the best way to go? Afterall, that's how everything is analysed now, and it's a good method (so to speak).
    If I was going about this strategically (in order to "win" an argument for myself), I'd focus on Jesus saying he was divine (and the J e w s understanding the exact same thing). I'd ignore your assertion about what the trinity is because it did not matter to those at the time. The trinity is an area of work/thought that one has to study history and see what the people of the time believed (and why). To me, this is a fruitful place to research but one that will take some time and effort to properly explain/understand. I do realize that it's pretty crucial to you to understand, so that's why I want to do my best when I begin to teach the "why's" behind this thought to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Did you watch his other videos btw? If so what do you think of them?
    I'm beginning by listening to some debates over here (scroll down to the "Other Topics" section). So far, I only listened to this one (but I found that I fell asleep and missed a lot of what was said during the "christian" side of the first phase of the debate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    You stated that 'not quite there yet' in having doubts with regards to the bible. What would 'make you there', so to speak?
    I don't remember exactly where I said this (although I can imagine myself saying that). I might have been acting a bit as a "facilitator promoting discussion". I definitely don't understand the Bible as well as I would like to, and often when people raise questions, I have to research what the Church teaches (and how they reached those conclusions, if I can). Short of having a theology degree, I think there's a lot in the Bible that I (and many other common people) do not properly understand. As a Catholic, it's even harder than for other Christians because we go back 2000 years. As you've experienced here, it's easy for others to take "pot shots" at a particular faith, but it takes us 10x or more effort to give them an answer. What it takes to "make me there" varies by each question/challenge I'm presented with. This never seems to end (but I seem to get a little closer to the goal as a result of each challenge). I suspect I'm a bit like you (in that I like to be presented with carefully thought out and serious questions rather than simple and careless (but often still "effective") attacks)!
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/11/2010 at 05:59 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #1364  
    Shadow-360

    I ask you to read your comments again and realize that you are still using 'biased' feelings and views towards the quran.

    About the notion of 'day', there's no prove the big bang occured in that way or that time 'slowed down' like that, you probably just heard it from a quran-enthusiast and believed it. Even so, you chain of logic makes mistakes when you say that time was slower in the beginning and then you say the speed of time was higher in the beginning. Since there are a lot of 'theory' in the study of the universe, a person can go and twist things or 'choose' or make up a couple of numbers to try and make a point but again this not science at all, is just fundamentalism.

    The same thing about the carpet and the mountains... Earth is not a 'carpet' or something like that hanging from mountains, that is WRONG. You can try and find other meanings here and there and twist here and there but what is written is what is written and is just wrong.

    The same thing with the movement of the sun and moon... First you were reading the quran literally but now you read it 'metaphorically' because it makes no sense for 'place where the sun rises' to exist. You do realize how weak your argument is?
    When you cite the quran 'night and day merges and everthing' and imply that earth is not flat because of that, you do realize how biased you sound? It's no direct logical conclusion what you've just said. Is just 'twisting' and 'changin here and there' again and again.

    You said that according to quran earth and heaven were created together like in the 'big bang' (like the quran predicted the big bang, oh yeah, totally brainwash) but these passages say they were actually created in different times: Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; the He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….
    Quran 79: 27 - 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth
    You are gonna try and twist things again here and there, pull up some 'biased' metaphorical explanation but words are words and THE QURAN IS WRONG (scientifically). Your choice to read 'literally' in some passages and 'metaphorically' on others just make all your arguments weak, there isn't any need for me to cite more things, I'm just doing it so for the sake of examples. Here are a few more: Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…
    Quran 37: 6-8 We have indeed decorated the lower heaven (sky) with beauty (in) the stars, (for beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious Satans. So they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side.

    So the stars are 'in the sky' and they exist to drive away satans... I clearly see a nobel prize here.

    Quran 31: 10 He hath created the heavens (Skies) without supports (pillars) that ye can see, and hath cast into the earth firm Mountains/Hills, so that it quake not with you; and He hath dispersed…
    So the mountains exist to stop earthquakes? Just perfect.

    More absurdities:
    Quran 9: 29 Fight those who do not profess the true faith(Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
    Quran 9: 5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them and take them captive, and besiege them and prepare for them each ambush….
    Quran 47: 4 When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads….
    Quran 2: 191 And slay (kill) them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
    Quran 8: 65 O Apostle ! rouse the believers to the fight of….unbelievers.

    Such a peaciful religion and totally in harmony with our modern moral values, maybe quran predicted our morality too! lol


    I ask you to try and exercise your common sense and reason. If you imagine that a person from a total different historical time and values, with primitive notions of the universe wrote these passages, it begins to make sense, doesn't it? It comes together without the need of 'twisting' or 'biased' metaphorical interpretations or silly views turned into truths for the sake of 'religious feelings'.

    I HAVE proved you wrong, and I believe that any person with reason and common sense can see this. You are trying to portrait me as 'atheist' because you think it helps leading the arguments to your side but the truth is that first my religious position or of any other person makes no difference to the discussion and second, fyi, I'm not an atheist.
  5.    #1365  
    @Shadow-360 (or anyone else who knows about this),

    Is there any difference between "Islam" and "Muslim" when referring to the faith associated with Mohammed? Which is the proper term to describe the faith? Does it matter (or is there a different context for) which term is used?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #1366  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    If I was going about this strategically (in order to "win" an argument for myself), I'd focus on Jesus saying he was divine (and the J e w s understanding the exact same thing). I'd ignore your assertion about what the trinity is because it did not matter to those at the time. The trinity is an area of work/thought that one has to study history and see what the people of the time believed (and why).
    Ahh right thanks for the clarification, Yeah i suppose its best to see from their point of view and not what some denomination of a church said, say. I've found theres alot of 'weeding out' involved when trying to find what 'seems to be' legitimate bibblical texts in relation to the doctrine of trinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    To me, this is a fruitful place to research but one that will take some time and effort to properly explain/understand. I do realize that it's pretty crucial to you to understand, so that's why I want to do my best when I begin to teach the "why's" behind this thought to you.
    Yes youre correct on that front, it definitely is. I may just go back to researching the concept at some later point but for now it seems the best use of time is focussing on the Quran.

    Though that being said, if you have anything fundamental to add to them 'Why's then i may indeed be tempted to go back over it. And thanks for offering to help, i'll be sure to redirect any relevant queries to you (and others) to aid me with

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I'm beginning by listening to some debates over here (scroll down to the "Other Topics" section). So far, I only listened to this one (but I found that I fell asleep and missed a lot of what was said during the "christian" side of the first phase of the debate).
    Thanks for the link, i'll look over them sometime in the next day or two. In the meantime, i highly recommend looking at the video debates too, they were very informative indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I don't remember exactly where I said this (although I can imagine myself saying that). I might have been acting a bit as a "facilitator promoting discussion".
    Yes i'm pretty sure you said that ~5 pages back (ill see if i can dig the relevant post and update in due course) but yes it's very possible that you were in the context.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    As you've experienced here, it's easy for others to take "pot shots" at a particular faith, but it takes us 10x or more effort to give them an answer
    Oh believe me i know exactly what you mean and sympathize (looks at own post - first one on this page).

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    This never seems to end (but I seem to get a little closer to the goal as a result of each challenge). I suspect I'm a bit like you (in that I like to be presented with carefully thought out and serious questions rather than simple and careless (but often still "effective") attacks!
    Apologies if this seems personal, and you shouldnt answer if you so wish, but what do you mean by your 'goal'?.

    Yes i suppose were alike on that front :-). The only reason they seem effective is because we feel we must justify their thoughtless posts, were taking 'the bait' so to speak.

    Sometimes (well, alot of the time) i wonder whether theres any point to an argument, well any benefit come from this? Will it cause someone to reconsider his faith? To believe in God if one was an athiest before? etc
    First Evar 1.4.0 Screenshot's Leaked By Your's Truly
  7. #1367  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    @Shadow-360 (or anyone else who knows about this),

    Is there any difference between "Islam" and "Muslim" when referring to the faith associated with Mohammed? Which is the proper term to describe the faith? Does it matter (or is there a different context for) which term is used?
    Islam is the term used to describe the faith. Same as Christianity. 'Islam' is the religion.

    A person who practises Islam is known as a 'Muslim'.

    Hope that clarifies it
    First Evar 1.4.0 Screenshot's Leaked By Your's Truly
  8.    #1368  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Apologies if this seems personal, and you shouldnt answer if you so wish, but what do you mean by your 'goal'?
    Not a problem to ask or answer this one. My "goal" really is pretty much the same as what this thread has been about: I simply want to understand that if there is a God who intended to reveal things to us, that I do my best in sorting out and understanding what this is. Even if there is not a God, understanding why my fellow man might think there is one is an interesting question (in the name of science and in helping to understand each other and our world). A secondary goal (for this tread) is simply to learn what others think and why.

    EDIT: I guess implicitly I'm hoping that the understanding I've been given so far in life will turn out to be correct. but if I took that attitude in this thread, it would interfere with my goal of promoting discussion for the purpose of understanding others. (I've learned quite a bit by keeping an open mind here so far.) There are times when I have to give answers or explanations of my faith (or sometimes my understanding of another faith). I'm trying to limit the rate at which I "hit" people with the 10 pound sledge. I'd rather people follow along and that we have conversations rather than lectures. (Even so, I'm guilty of the latter. )
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/11/2010 at 06:23 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #1369  
    Disclaimer: An 'Angry post' Due to fabrication of sources of holy texts, which quite frankly annoys me. Sorry guys, this is directed at sloopjohnb.

    I'm not going to continue to go into much depth because to be quite frank, i dont see the point, citing my sources with thorough explanations when you blatantly dont. Urgh

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    About the notion of 'day', there's no prove the big bang occured in that way or that time 'slowed down' like that, you probably just heard it from a quran-enthusiast and believed it.
    As a matter of fact Einstein stated this fact. What, unless youre calling him a liar? His theories are wrong?

    Read about Time dilation in his theory of relativity before you make weak arguments, see the irony? You dont research or back up what you say, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Even so, you chain of logic makes mistakes when you say that time was slower in the beginning and then you say the speed of time was higher in the beginning.
    where did i state this?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    The same thing about the carpet and the mountains... Earth is not a 'carpet' or something like that hanging from mountains, that is WRONG. You can try and find other meanings here and there and twist here and there but what is written is what is written and is just wrong.
    Oh my word, who on earth said anything about carpets hanging from mountains

    'Quran 15: 19 And the earth We have spread out ;SET THEREON Mountains firm and immovable' <----Read Properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    The same thing with the movement of the sun and moon... First you were reading the quran literally but now you read it 'metaphorically' because it makes no sense for 'place where the sun rises' to exist. You do realize how weak your argument is?
    You fail to read the context, in which case the quote is from WHAT A PERSON SEE'S, How can it be a scientific justification of any sort from a Quranic standpoint? And besides, i answered not metaphorically, but showing what happened with thorough explanations.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    First you were reading the quran literally but now you read it 'metaphorically' because it makes no sense for 'place where the sun rises' to exist. You do realize how weak your argument is?
    How is it? I clearly answered above, it's from a persons standpoint.

    All Text is based and written like this.

    I'm dying of thirst as we speak, are you going to take it literally or metaphorically? See how weak your argument is?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    When you cite the quran 'night and day merges and everthing' and imply that earth is not flat because of that, you do realize how biased you sound? It's no direct logical conclusion what you've just said.
    How is it biased? You dont even explain, Because you cant? Listen to yourself, you say something and cant back it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Is just 'twisting' and 'changin here and there' again and again.
    Twist and change to what you want to believe i suppose?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    You said that according to quran earth and heaven were created together like in the 'big bang' (like the quran predicted the big bang, oh yeah, totally brainwash)
    How the hell is it wrong?! How is it brainwash?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    You are gonna try and twist things again here and there, pull up some 'biased' metaphorical explanation but words are words and THE QURAN IS WRONG (scientifically).
    You contradict yourself, talk about assuming, and no i wont.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Quran 2: 29 It is He who hath created for you all things that are on Earth; the He turned to the Heaven and made them into seven firmaments (Skies)….
    Quote it properly and stop editing, have you even read what you pasted?!

    And urgh, time to explain to the kiddo; No, no metaphorical BS;

    1. Troposphere
    2. Stratosphere
    3. Mesosphere
    4. Thermosphere
    5. Exosphere
    6. Ionosphere
    7. Magnetosphere

    Seven layers of skies you ordered sir?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Quran 79: 27 - 30 Are you the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it; and He has made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morning thereof. And after that, He spread (flattened) the earth
    Urgh, talking about the creation of the earth, how else do would you describe the surface of the earth? Isnt the ground you standing on virtually flat? Flattening something and making it flat are two different things.

    A spherical is virtually flat, do differentiation theory in mathematics.



    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Quran 67: 5 And We have (from of old) adorned the lowest heaven (sky) with lamps, and We have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans…
    Urgh, just read before you post

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    So the mountains exist to stop earthquakes? Just perfect.
    It is a well known scientific fact that mountains geologically stabilize the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    The other quotes, youve pasted from anti islamist sites (of course), and i dont think they showed the whole quotes in context did they? No, i thought not, no need for me to explain so when you research and can backup what you paste, let me know, thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Quran 8: 65 O Apostle ! rouse the believers to the fight of….unbelievers.
    Quite frankly im disgusted at you, not backing what you say up without facts is one thing, but misquoting the quran to suit you and to portray it as 'terrorist' encouraging?

    i'm sorry, i'm not even sure its worth having a discussion with you. This quote is fabricated. #If youre going to use a quote for an argument atleast take some time to find a valid translation and cite your sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I ask you to try and exercise your common sense and reason. If you imagine that a person from a total different historical time and values, with primitive notions of the universe wrote these passages, it begins to make sense, doesn't it? It comes together without the need of 'twisting' or 'biased' metaphorical interpretations or silly views turned into truths for the sake of 'religious feelings'.
    Urm no, if anything you further affirmed my belief, as someone of your ideologies clearly has no logic, fails to back up what he says, and chats total crap in my opinion. Well, it's fact, i've proved it. You yet to come up with anything solid and questionable.

    Religious feelings? what are yours? Scientific feelings? Oh please.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I HAVE proved you wrong, and I believe that any person with reason and common sense can see this
    Urm no, you just shown youre a liar, misquoting holy books, thats just low. Even for yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    You are trying to portrait me as 'atheist' because you think it helps leading the arguments to your side but the truth is that first my religious position or of any other person makes no difference to the discussion and second, fyi, I'm not an atheist.
    Lol. Thats funny you should say that. If it makes no bearing to the discussion why are you using 'religious feelings' as a bearing.

    By your logic, i should say, why are you using your 'athiest feelings'
    Last edited by Adam Carr; 03/14/2010 at 05:32 PM.
    First Evar 1.4.0 Screenshot's Leaked By Your's Truly
  10.    #1370  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    I must admit though the concept of trinity is one thing which i found during research to be 'a wall' so to speak in helping me understand the bible and i have to admit one which initially moved me away from it's teachings. If you have anything which could change this for me, then it would be most welcome.
    I would use the Catechism of the Catholic Church as one of those "rosetta stone" kind of a sources. You can view this online or purchase it as a book. I've not found the online ones to be easy to navigate to specific sections. I have an old paper copy that I never read. Mostly I begin with two pieces of software: "The Faith Database" and "Welcome to the Catholic Church". Neither of these are perfect (both in terms of usability as well as being "bug free" software implementations) but together one is strong in areas where the other is weak (and vice-versa).

    If you try "The Faith Database", try the CDROM rather than the download. The download version is tricky to install and it leaves some database files (perhaps "cursors" or something similar) in an inconsistent state. I've had to reinstall to fix when that happens (because I don't know how to spot and fix the problems it has with the FoxPro database files that it uses). Never do a query with two search terms as this takes forever. The UI is a bit clunky, but once you get the hang of it, it's pretty powerful. ""The Faith Database" is strongest in references to the Church Fathers (non canonical, but historical letters, sermons, etc.) as well as having a copy of "The Catholic Encyclopedia".

    "Welcome to the Catholic Church" does a better job of presenting the "Catechism of the Catholic Church" (as well as some other catechisms). It has much better (and faster) search capabilities than "The Faith Database". I have less "exposure time" to "Welcome to the Catholic Church" so there's a good bit of what it can do that I have not "discovered" yet.

    You can download "Welcome to the Catholic Church" as a free trial (for windows, anyway). It runs three times with full capabilities before (supposedly) shutting itself off completely. Harmony Media seems to be a "one man software shop". When I bought my registration code, they took my credit card but didn't send the registration code to me. (An email to them (on a Friday afternoon, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:08 PM) resulted in a response yesterday (Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:34 PM) with my registration code.) You could probably hack the registry to get around this if you needed to. I didn't bother to figure out if that was possible.

    Here's a book ("Beginning Apologetics 9: How To Answer Muslims") that you might find useful (or maybe not - I can't tell from the Amazon.com reviews). It's designed for someone like me to use "against" someone like you. It's not very expensive though. I think it's more of a "leaflet/booklet" rather than a book itself. If you buy it, I'd be interested in what you eventually think of it (positive, negative, or both).

    The last (easiest/cheapest/"free") resource is to call the "Apologist's Line" at Catholic Answers (in San Diego, CA, USA). The number at this link is for the main switchboard. The can connect you with an apologist who understands Islam/Catholic issues. They will also be able to tell you whether the above booklet will help you or not.
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/11/2010 at 07:33 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11.    #1371  
    I was considering stepping in sooner (because I was afraid this might happen), but I didn't because I was trusting we wouldn't resort to name calling.

    Disclaimer: An 'Angry post' Due to fabrication of sources of holy texts, which quite frankly annoys me. Sorry guys, this is directed at sloopjohnb.
    I'm glad you put a disclaimer at the top. This was very "professional". -- thx

    Hah, sorry, i must admit i laughed reading your timid excuse of an argument! I'm not going to continue to go into much depth because to be quite frank, i dont see the point, citing my sources with thorough explanations when you blatantly dont. Urgh
    Nothing wrong so far, but I can see that the "temperature" is rising. I've been in exactly this same spot myself. Sometimes it's OK to still hit the "send" button, but do it with caution.

    It's OK to state things like the above (but "hit send" and give the other person a chance to clarify before typing too much). EDIT: In other words, when this happens to me, I try and use a strategy of "shorter answers" (just to test out, or even "present" my mood) to "test the waters" a bit.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #1372  
    Shadow-360

    Oh gosh... It's getting hard. By your utterly agressive and irrational comments, I was thinking about disregarding you completely but I ask you again to read the things you write. It's impossible that you don't see that your conclusions are not necessary logical conclusions but subjective. You only see what you want to see. I don't have deep knowledge of the quran but I see the passages and I judge them by what they are, the words written, not subjectively like you do. I never denied the big bang, I just questioned the 'numbers' you presented and your logic because you said that time was slower and then that the speed of time as higher. YOU have to learn how to read, or write, not me.
    You can 'interpret' things as you like but in the passages it clearly says the sky was made and AFTER the earth was made. There's also not a necessary logical conclusion to say that the earth is not flat based on these passages, I ask you read them again, again, read the words, not you what them to mean.
    I'm don't need to waste my time and address each of your claims about the passages because I think is clear for anybody reading this thread that they are subject to interpretation and not logical necessary conclusions at all. Not to mention the total disregard for scientific methodology.

    I did not fabricate the last passages, I copied them. If they are incorrect, you can cite them correctly any time you want. The truth is that the 'quran' morality is not like our modern morality, for instance, their treatment to women is quite different from the western world, I suppose you think we are wrong and we're going to hell because of that?

    I'm not saying I'm right about everything but YOUR claim that you are right for sure and that the quran is right and even more, that the quran is scientifically accurate is WRONG. It's biased and it's subjective and I think ANYONE would agree with me.

    I'm not hiding anything. I was raised as a catholic but I've always questioned reality and religions, you could say I'm more of an agnostic, I do believe there are things we cannot explain in life and in the universe but these things ARE NOT the catholic god, or the j e w, or buda, or zeus, or alah, etc. This is my view you were so eager to know.
  13.    #1373  
    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Shadow-360

    Oh gosh... It's getting hard. ...
    I'm going to suggest a cooling off period of about a day. Short posts in the interim would be considered fine, but let's aim for perhaps one serious question per post. Most of us westerners really do not understand the Qu'ran and other tenants taught by Islam. We're very likely going to have a "simplistic" view and we don't understand principles of how earlier statements in the Qu'ran are to be superseded by later ones anytime a contradiction might arise. Perhaps Shadow-360 can write a bit about such principles over the next day (or whenever he has time to write, if that's not tomorrow).

    If any of you disagree with my suggestions above, they are open for discussion, as this is our forum and not mine (and my suggestions are just that and not really binding anyway).

    thanks,
    --
    Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #1374  
    Actually Bob,

    You have done a fantastic job keeping things civil in here.

    So,
    By the power invested in me, I grant you the authority to keep this thread within your bounds of order and civility.

    Note to all;
    please heed sudoer's kind request.

    Thanks,
    Berd
  15. #1375  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Actually Bob,

    You have done a fantastic job keeping things civil in here.

    So,
    By the power invested in me, I grant you the authority to keep this thread within your bounds of order and civility.

    Note to all;
    please heed sudoer's kind request.

    Thanks,
    Berd
    Technically, the power is vested in you, not invested in you.
    What the blank is wrong with you, Berd??!? Do i have to explain EVERYTHING to you???
  16. #1376  


    You sure power isn't invested in me,and I'm divesting some to sudoer?

    Talk about a typo!
    But hey, it's late.
  17. #1377  
    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Oh gosh... It's getting hard. By your utterly agressive and irrational comments
    firstly please accept my apologies to you and sudoer, moments before the post news came that my sister was in hospital, shes gravely ill, so i havent been in the best headspace right now. Just come back from a night spent at the hospital.

    With regards to the irrational comments, i must admit i've though the exact same about yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    It's impossible that you don't see that your conclusions are not necessary logical conclusions but subjective
    How so? Please explain.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    You only see what you want to see.
    That's funny because i would have said the exact same thing about you

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I don't have deep knowledge of the quran
    So why participate in a discussion on its teachings when youre clearly not well versed?

    I would be more than happy to explain to you, should you ask politely if you dont understand a certain aspect and not take 'pot-shots' as sudoer put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I see the passages and I judge them by what they are, the words written, not subjectively like you do
    Mine have always been logical and in context. I've taken the time to research the meanings behind each one. You seem to take everything at face value without having done research prior and use it as 'ammo'. copying from sites which mock certain verses which are indeed fabricated.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I just questioned the 'numbers' you presented and your logic because you said that time was slower and then that the speed of time as higher.
    I suppose you havent studied physics. And im also assuming youre calling einstein a liar.

    Ponder of this, time on earth is dictated by the orbit of the earth around a sun, which is around ~365.25 days. Now, please explain how universal time is then dictated? Does a universe go around a sun? o_O

    If you dont understand a proven concept than than its simply better to not comment as your ignorance is shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    You can 'interpret' things as you like but in the passages it clearly says the sky was made and AFTER the earth was made
    Even though the quote didnt say that, okay, let's take what you just said literally shall we?

    How can you have a sky without the earth? The sky/atmosphere must come after the mass geological creation of the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    There's also not a necessary logical conclusion to say that the earth is not flat based on these passages
    How so? If you produce a constructive argument for this statement i'll be more than happy to answer.

    How else can you explain how night merges into day and vice versa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I ask you read them again, again, read the words, not you what them to mean
    I have, now i ask you to read yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I'm don't need to waste my time and address each of your claims about the passages
    Only someone in denial and/or who doesnt know what theyre talking about would produce such a statement. As you clearly cant back up what you say.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I think is clear for anybody reading this thread that they are subject to interpretation and not logical necessary conclusions at all
    Again jumping to conclusions? How so not logical?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Not to mention the total disregard for scientific methodology
    On the contrary quite the opposite, youve totally disregarded the methodology, i on the other hand have succinctly shown.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I did not fabricate the last passages, I copied them. If they are incorrect, you can cite them correctly any time you want
    They are fabricated, either that or you play copy from a site without researching, how can you have any credibility in your arguments when your sources are totally weak? I shouldnt have to and see no reason to.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    The truth is that the 'quran' morality is not like our modern morality
    How so? Morality always changes. Does that mean religions should change with the times? I dont think it is, but if you say so, the logic could be applied to any religion.

    Religion says dont commit adultery, its pretty commonplace now, does that mean religion morality is not succinct with modern day?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    for instance, their treatment to women is quite different from the western world
    Oh gosh, showing ignorance. Quran promote's only equal treatment.

    Please explain what you mean before (again) making ignorant comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I suppose you think we are wrong and we're going to hell because of that?
    Why on earth would i say that? I'm not the one to judge. The one up there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I'm not saying I'm right about everything but YOUR claim that you are right for sure and that the quran is right and even more, that the quran is scientifically accurate is WRONG. It's biased and it's subjective and I think ANYONE would agree with me
    Sure seems it, but atleast there is a slight admittance that you have been wrong on some (if not most/all) accounts.

    I'm not saying im right, im stating the verses backed up with facts scientifically whilst drawing logical conclusions.

    How so subjective?

    Again jumping to conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I'm not hiding anything. I was raised as a catholic but I've always questioned reality and religions, you could say I'm more of an agnostic, I do believe there are things we cannot explain in life and in the universe but these things ARE NOT the catholic god, or the j e w, or buda, or zeus, or alah, etc. This is my view you were so eager to know
    Thankyou for the insight.

    My parents are catholoics, albeit open minded. Theyve raised me up to be one, but later on promoted i search 'for the truth' when i started having doubts about the faith.

    I see that you are agnostic, dont you think its best to do research and come to a conclusion rather than fence-sitting? As its not really productive.

    I also agree that there are things we cannot explain, youre correct, but the things we can, we should.
    First Evar 1.4.0 Screenshot's Leaked By Your's Truly
  18.    #1378  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    firstly please accept my apologies to you and sudoer, moments before the post news came that my sister was in hospital, shes gravely ill, so i havent been in the best headspace right now. Just come back from a night spent at the hospital.
    I'm sorry to hear about your sister and her serious illness. I'm sure she will be in many of our prayers.

    Regarding the rest of your post (after the above quote), I'll request that you "save what you said" (cut and paste it into a local file on your computer) and edit it out of the post for now. Most of the remainder of the post (particularly all the stuff except what you wrote after the last quotation) is not honoring the "cooling off" period that I requested. I don't mean to censor, but we need to move the discussion towards "how to understand and communicate with each other" before we can proceed with doctrinal questions on Islam.

    Thanks for understanding, the discussion will continue, but we need to think about how to do this respectfully before we can continue.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19.    #1379  
    I had been searching for a good set of guidelines on how to communicate effectively with Muslims. The best that I could find was a 1 hour long radio program episode.

    EWTN Live: 11/26/2008: Christianity and Islam

    The first half of the show in particular is the most applicable part to the problem we are now having here. We first need to develop a friendship with each other. After this, we'll hopefully develop enough trust that we don't "think the worst" of the others we are "discussing" with. After that, we'll probably need to "start over" with some focused questions (which I am happy to lead). Once all this happens, we should be back to "normal".

    thanks
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20.    #1380  
    @Shadow-360,
    Here are some resources to help you with the "wall" you hit below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    I must admit though the concept of trinity is one thing which i found during research to be 'a wall' so to speak in helping me understand the bible and i have to admit one which initially moved me away from it's teachings. If you have anything which could change this for me, then it would be most welcome.
    Here is a "Faith Tract" titled "The Divinity of Christ" which references lots of Bible verses as well as writings of the Early Church Fathers (which are historical writings indicating what early members of the Church believed).

    Here is another "Faith Tract" that deals specifically with "The Trinity".

    If you prefer listening over reading, here is an hour long radio program where the guest (Fr. Robert Spitzer) speaks on "The Divinity of Christ".

    Here is another radio show where the guest (Tim Staples) speaks on "The Trinity".

    Lastly, if you want to read from one of the greatest writers in history, consider what Thomas Aquinas explains these issues in:
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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