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  1.    #1321  
    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I think you guys are still trying to 'prove' or to say that god 'probably exists' because of the gaps in our scientific knowledge but again there's no logical indication that these gaps must be filled with an all knowing, mighty, designer individual (god).
    @sloopjohnb, You are the next person on my list of whose posts I need to read and thoroughly respond to. (That might still take a few days, so please have patience.) I think you raise a lot of good points and I think we need to discuss and expand your viewpoints.

    My brief response (for the time being) is that I believe science and religion can reveal different pieces of information from one God. I say "can" with respect to both of these, because I agree we can't totally prove or disprove the existence of a possible God. While I would be saddened if I were convinced that God does not exist, I also realize this is "reality" for many people (and that I can easily be one of the deluded). If God were not to exist, I'd still be happy for my life on Earth and I really don't think it would change my morals in any way. I believe with equal strength of what science can reveal as what religion "appears" to reveal for me. This belief is so strong in me that I'm using science (the scientific method) in my investigation of whether God may truly have revealed any message. I care for nothing other than knowing whatever truth is possible for us to know as humans.

    I'm hoping that you, me, and others here will raise insightful questions that minimally bring us closer to understanding each other. More ambitiously, I hope we can discover things that in some way benefit mankind. I'm not holding out for success in the later, but I will not give up without increased understanding of the former of these two goals!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2.    #1322  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Here is a beautiful introduction to Islam (as it should be seen by Catholics). I'm still reading it as I write this (well, I don't really multitask ).
    @Shadow-360,
    The above helped me tremendously in understanding Islam. I can see from what I read (without reading the apparently beautiful Qu’ran) the beauty you see here. I almost don't want to ask the questions which are on my mind. I promise I will ask them, but I want to pause in my writing to you so that others can appreciate the beauty of the faith you are seeking before I try to "discect" it.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #1323  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    This is for dbd, and any who might find it interesting.
    (Warning - Great Wall of Text)............ God cleansed the earth, gave man another fresh start and another opportunity to try it on his own again.
    The wicked angels lost their heavenly positions, and God repeated the direction to Noah and his family that he originally gave Adam and Eve. .................
    Hi Berd, sorry it took about a week to reply to this...
    So how could God have given Man a "fresh start" by cleansing the Earth of all the wickedness, yet still leaving Noah walking around?
    Noah was "born in sin" just like all the rest of Man.
    Ok, so you had these mythical creatures impregnating our women. God said: "Enough of these shenanigans, i'm gonna straighten "stuff" out down there".
    Now wasn't Man doing enough of his own damage already too? Hadn't Man already defied God because of the "free will" he was given?
    Since Noah was connected to Adam, how in the world could it be taught that we got a fresh start? Because God repeated his directions to Noah?
    Noah was born in sin. Adam wasn't, and he STILL messed everything up.
    Sorry Berd, I don't consider this a sufficient answer.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 03/09/2010 at 05:35 PM.
  4.    #1324  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Hi Berd, sorry it took about a week to reply to this...
    By my calculations, this indicates that you type at about 0.2 wpm! [Stop texting while driving and your rate will improve!]
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  5. #1325  
    Ok then

    Let me make an attempt at using an illustration.

    "The Father Who Loves Them"

    Part 1.
    Once upon a time there was a wise and loving father who built a house for his children.
    He installed plumbing, electrical, an air filtration system, and stocked the cupboards and fridge with plenty of food.
    Everything they needed to make a great start and build a good life for themselves. The father told the children that he would continue to help them succeed. All they had to do was follow his wishes for the way they were to maintain/upkeep the home, to treat their brothers and sisters, and to recognize that he knew best for those bigger decisions that they may have no experience.

    to be continued.....
    Just call me Berd.
  6. #1326  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Ok then

    Let me make an attempt at using an illustration.

    "The Father Who Loves Them"

    Part 1.
    Once upon a time there was a wise and loving father who built a house for his children.
    He installed plumbing, electrical, an air filtration system, and stocked the cupboards and fridge with plenty of food.
    Everything they needed to make a great start and build a good life for themselves. The father told the children that he would continue to help them succeed. All they had to do was follow his wishes for the way they were to maintain/upkeep the home, to treat their brothers and sisters, and to recognize that he knew best for those bigger decisions that they may have no experience.

    to be continued.....
    Part 2.
    A stranger from a distant land who wanted the wise and loving father's property, decided to try and get the children to turn against the wise and loving father. This stranger was cunning and figured if he could get the children to ignore the father's guidelines, they would now be subject to him.
    This stranger was a powerful person and yet was selfish and wanted more under his authority. He figured because he had this desire for independence that others would also want this independence. So that's what he appealed to. He told the children that their father wasn't looking out for their interest, but rather, was denying them this privileged to decide these things for themselves.
    (This is the most fundamental part of this whole issue - We need to first truly appreciate this to understand why the father does what he does next, and why he does what he does when.)

    to be continued.....
    Just call me Berd.
  7. #1327  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    By my calculations, this indicates that you type at about 0.2 wpm! [Stop texting while driving and your rate will improve!]
    LoL .................................
  8. #1328  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Part 2.
    A stranger from a distant land who wanted the wise and loving father's property, decided to try and get the children to turn against the wise and loving father. This stranger was cunning and figured if he could get the children to ignore the father's guidelines, they would now be subject to him.
    This stranger was a powerful person and yet was selfish and wanted more under his authority. He figured because he had this desire for independence that others would also want this independence. So that's what he appealed to. He told the children that their father wasn't looking out for their interest, but rather, was denying them this privileged to decide these things for themselves.
    (This is the most fundamental part of this whole issue - We need to first truly appreciate this to understand why the father does what he does next, and why he does what he does when.)

    to be continued.....
    I have no trouble understanding this line of thinking Berd, and i know you've explained this analogy a few times in this thread already.
    It's just that it's not answering (to me, at least) why, if he truly wanted to end that system (back in Noah's Day), how could he have left behind a "straggler" that was still connected to Adam?
    Since Noah was "born in sin", he had no chance to make things right. He was doomed from the get-go.
    Believe it or not, my wife is a Jehovah's Witness. Of course, since i've been married to her (4½ years now), she's been trying to change my way of thinking. (And of course, she waited until we were married to try this. )
    93% of what i know about the bible is because of her. Anytime i throw questions at her, she points out scriptures that have an "answer" to my question.
    But when i ask her the question i've been asking you, she gives me the exact same answer you do. (BTW- You've answered other things in this thread along the line of her beliefs and i noticed you defended Witnesses in some other thread in regards to honesty.) (Hmmm....)
    Anyway, i still don't have an answer that explains what i'm asking, and she knows the bible inside and out.
    I was hoping you would swoop in and save the day, this way i could bring it back to her to see what her thoughts about your answer are.
  9.    #1329  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    I have no trouble understanding this line of thinking Berd, ...
    @dbd, I sort of understand berdinkerdickle's points but I'm not sure that's the "total" message (or perhaps even the "main"? message).

    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    It's just that it's not answering (to me, at least) why, if he truly wanted to end that system (back in Noah's Day), how could he have left behind a "straggler" that was still connected to Adam?
    I think the "main" message is that God established a "covenant" with Adam and God's covenants are never broken (by Him). In addition to always giving man free will, God also has always been waiting and giving man a chance to redeem "himself". In short, that's why he never wiped man off the Earth and started over. Does this make any sense? Do we need to discuss this in more depth? (Just let me know if you want to go down this road.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10.    #1330  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    ... my wife is a Jehovah's Witness. ... 93% of what i know about the bible is because of her. ...
    Good to know. I was having trouble "understanding" your understanding.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #1331  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Good to know. I was having trouble "understanding" your understanding.
    Just to be clear, i don't believe anything she says, lol.
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    #1332  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Just to be clear, i don't believe anything she says, lol.
    Well..... there's one topic avoided at the dinner table!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13.    #1333  
    Shadow-360 hasn't yet answered whether my understanding of Islam is correct or not, I've waited a couple of days, so I'll now proceed with my questions about Islam and the Qu'ran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Basically, i'm not going to say why something is right, but i do feel quran to be more accurate than the bible in many ways, in fact, i havent found 'a holy book' yet which is more accurate. ...
    1. Is Qu'ran is supposed to be a perfect book completed God's revelation? If so, why did we get two branches of Islam immediately after Mohammed's death?
    2. If Jesus was a Holy prophet (and not God), why would such a "holy" prophet blaspheme the name of God by claiming he was Him? Logic dictates that he had to either be who he claimed to be, or that he was evil rather than holy.

    The first question indicates to me that the Qu'ran does not hold up to the test you made for it. Either answer to the second question excludes the Qu'ran from being correct. Logic points me either to Judaism or Christianity depending on which answer is determined (to the second question).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    ... i'm ... hoping to find the truth, so far the quran explains it all. ...
    Without resolution to the issues I raised above, I can only proceed with treating the Qu'ran as a "beautiful book" based on some false premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Feel free to correct me and/or add your view, i am a learner afterall. Believe me the bible has some major flaws, but if you dont think so, that's totally fine with me.
    I'm less concerned with "correcting" anyone than investigating and understanding any truths which we might be given. Have you given examples of any of the "major flaws" in the Bible that we have not discussed yet? Do you still have disputes with any answers or logic that I have provided? (This seems to be a "side question" for me (and a bit of a "fork in the road"). Do we "debunk" the Bible or the Qu'ran, or both at this point?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    If the bible is the divine truth, there shouldn't be anything to hide, so to speak?
    Where in the Bible does it indicate that that the Bible provides all of God's revelation? I'm not sure why you make the premise that the Bible has to provide answers for everything when the book itself says (in John 21:25):
    Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Isnt a scripture which talks about something and tries to make us understand as to a subject?
    Scripture is the inspired word of God. I believe God gave us his word to increase our understanding of Him. (So essentially, "He" is the subject, not our understanding of the world around us. We understand the physical world he gave us through our own observations and interactions with this world.)

    So let me "take stock" of where I am:
    • I remain unconvinced that the Qu'ran is the inspired word of God.
    • I believe there are elements of truth in what Muslims believe.
    • I believe we all worship the same one and holy God.

    From what I've read so far about Islam, it looks beautiful, but it's had divisions and misunderstandings since it's beginning. My understanding of Islam is far from complete and I suspect I am not alone. What does Islam offer that prevents the same sort of "misinterpretations" that we've seen with the Bible? Why should Atheists and Agnostics accept any of this as "indications" that there might really be a God?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #1334  
    I did not read the thread, but here is my answer:

    If there actually IS a God, then he is a freakin' *******!

    In Africa, a child is starving every freakin' 3 seconds and you eat Meatloaf in your sweet homes and discuss if there is a higher power for the good of humanity? Are u seriously THAT stupid?

    No offense, though :P


    The battle of religion is simply a battle for who has the coolest imaginary friend....
  15. #1335  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Well..... there's one topic avoided at the dinner table!
    LoL yep, and posted here at Pre|C to start a new thread.
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    #1336  
    Quote Originally Posted by NoSyMe View Post
    The battle of religion is simply a battle for who has the coolest imaginary friend....
    No battle there. Mine is definitely the coolest....
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #1337  
    Quote Originally Posted by NoSyMe View Post
    I did not read the thread, but here is my answer:

    If there actually IS a God, then he is a freakin' *******!

    In Africa, a child is starving every freakin' 3 seconds and you eat Meatloaf in your sweet homes and discuss if there is a higher power for the good of humanity? Are u seriously THAT stupid?

    No offense, though :P


    The battle of religion is simply a battle for who has the coolest imaginary friend....
    This is just one example of many in this thread that just makes me scratch my head. Why is it that people question God's existence simply because life here on earth is far from perfect? If God wanted life here to be perfect, he would have NOT given us free will. If life was perfect, would we even know anything of imperfection?

    I don't usually recommend books and rarely if ever read books recommended to me, but there are some folks who might some questions answered (or at least see an interesting point of view) by reading "When Bad Things Happen To Good People."
  18. #1338  
    Quote Originally Posted by NoSyMe View Post
    I did not read the thread, but here is my answer:

    If there actually IS a God, then he is a freakin' *******!

    In Africa, a child is starving every freakin' 3 seconds and you eat Meatloaf in your sweet homes and discuss if there is a higher power for the good of humanity? Are u seriously THAT stupid?
    I was thinking about this post for some reason, ( I normally ignore anti god outbursts like this) but I was home today and cleaning up. Then I realized when I was vacuuming... My dog acts like Im her god! She always listens to everything I say, im the source of all of her fun, food and life! (im sure if she understood, she would pray to me too! )
    But when I vacuum she gets sooo nervous and scared.. My point here is she has no idea or understands why I do this awful, cruel thing... why would "her god" do something soo mean! And it makes me think of this question. I do it cause its neccassary (and my GF would kill me) but that is completely beyond her understanding, as is, why if there is a God we can not understand why he lets things happen that he does... IMO religious people paint this beautiful Da Vinci'esque picture of God, but no one really knows what his agenda is we just cant comprehend it bc no one can truly comprehend him!
    This thread helped me realize that I am not neccasarily anti God as I used to be (very much so) as much as I am anti-religion. Too many conflicts, too many figurative interpretations, too many people involved, too many religions and too many different beliefs in each religion.
  19. #1339  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Shadow-360 hasn't yet answered whether my understanding of Islam is correct or not, I've waited a couple of days, so I'll now proceed with my questions about Islam and the Qu'ran.
    Ahh, apologies for the late reply, have been very busy the past few days, i will try to address all your statements to the best of my ability now!

    Sorry if this takes a while, but rest assured i'm going through the posts as we speak...
    First Evar 1.4.0 Screenshot's Leaked By Your's Truly
  20.    #1340  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Ahh, apologies for the late reply, have been very busy the past few days, i will try to address all your statements to the best of my ability now!
    I knew you were checking out the PDK, so I figured you were busy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Sorry if this takes a while, but rest assured i'm going through the posts as we speak...
    There was just one link I gave that helped me to understand Islam. I just wanted to hear from you that their description of Islam is essentially correct.

    EDIT: Here is the article that I based my understanding of Islam on:
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Here is a beautiful introduction to Islam (as it should be seen by Catholics). I'm still reading it as I write this (well, I don't really multitask ).
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/10/2010 at 05:33 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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