Page 65 of 89 FirstFirst ... 1555606162636465666768697075 ... LastLast
Results 1,281 to 1,300 of 1780
  1. #1281  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    And yes youre right, i'm not following any as of yet, simple researching hoping to find the truth, so far the quran explains it all. It is permissible to base the existence of god on literature with an explanation, providing it has a valid basis/proof and non some ignorant quote/comment, so to speak.

    Thanks for explaining and sharing some of the words of the Quran! I must admit my ignorance to it, but this is (possibly) the first I saw direct quotes from that scripture!
    It is quite an interesting twist to the "western" religions. I do admit that I enjoy to see some scientific writings within the scripture! I can see why that has caught your interest, it has an earthly feel to it (at least in the sections you shared).

    When was the quran written?

    A question to Catholics and Chrstian's if a person were to embrace another religion like Muslim but faithfully believe the Same God will they still go to heaven?
    I know we talked about this a few times, but if they dont accept Jesus as there Savior are there eternal beings doomed!?

    @shadow what are your feelings towards the actual religious words in the Quran?
    Do they write through the word of God or is it written through a humans perspective of Him?
    Last edited by gsonspre; 03/06/2010 at 04:25 PM.
  2. #1282  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Thanks for explaining and sharing some of the words of the Quran! I must admit my ignorance to it, but this is (possibly) the first I saw direct quotes from that scripture!
    It is quite an interesting twist to the "western" religions. I do admit that I enjoy to see some scientific writings within the scripture! When was the quran written?
    No problem! Sometimes i wish people would research more and be less ignorant, the world would be a much more civilized place (so he wishes). This wasnt directed to you btw .

    Yes, and theres alot more where that came from, that's what fascinates me, the fact the quran is able to, and is right, whereas the bible cant, and where it does, often fails.

    Quran was written (i would say revealed by god, but thats counter productive wouldnt you say? - And besides, still researching -.-) around 1400 years ago. Not bad given the scientific correlation, they must have had some very clever scientists
  3. #1283  
    Quote Originally Posted by tennenho View Post
    My wife and my In-laws, who would be absolutely aghast to know that I'm even questioning the validity of organized religion, the existence of an all-powerful Creator, or the "fact" that it's Jesus Christ or nothing.
    Ahh, i know the feeling .

    It's a personal choice, and to each their own. All i can say is im researching for myself ignoring anyone telling me whats black and whats white (so to speak).
  4. #1284  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    A question to Catholics and Chrstian's if a person were to embrace another religion like Muslim but faithfully believe the Same God will they still go to heaven?
    I know we talked about this a few times, but if they dont accept Jesus as there Savior are there eternal beings doomed!?

    @shadow what are your feelings towards the actual religious words in the Quran?
    Do they write through the word of God or is it written through a humans perspective of Him?
    I know the first question isnt directed at me but i suppose arent the gods the same? Theyre all benevolent, merciful, and loving, as well as all powerful. But worshipping and acknowledging him in the way the religion prescribes as the way god wants you to? Apart from hindus/sikhs (which believe in many many gods - other lesser known religions). Accepting Jesus/saviours is relative to religion so i suppose if you go to islam (not muslim btw, thats someone who practises islam than the jesus savour thing is invalid (based on what you feel is the truth, and that actually is) - Man i write so confusing, sorry

    With regards to the holy words of the quran. I dont want to say anything too definite yet i think i may have found something which explains it all to me. To put it bluntly. The way the quran is written is that it is the words of god (Believe me the way it's written is beautiful - poetry in a sense).

    Any other queries feel free to ask . And i highly suggest you research into it if you are serious about finding 'the truth' so to speak. I'll also help you with other religious scriptures, seen as i've studied quite a lot of others too.
  5. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #1285  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    That then brings around an interesting point. Isnt a scripture which talks about something and tries to make us understand as to a subject, better than a scripture which avoids the issue altogether?

    If the bible is the divine truth, there shouldn't be anything to hide, so to speak?
    If I understand your question correctly, I don't see it as hiding anything or being in any respect less reliable on subjects it was intended to discuss. Would a book about automotive repair that doesn't touch on the subject of international labor relations be any less accurate or worthy in respect to automotive repair?
  6. groovy's Avatar
    Posts
    941 Posts
    Global Posts
    955 Global Posts
    #1286  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    There seems to be as much literature available on Santa Claus as there is on Christianity. Why do children hold on to religion and let Santa Claus go as a "fun Christmas story for kids"? Same question for the Easter bunny, the boogie man, leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, the man in the moon, etc. One reason is because parents continue to push religion long after they admit Santa Claus and the other characters are fiction. If you were to start an experimental community (this is hypothetical) where, around 10 or 12 years of age, children learn from their parents and society that religion is a "fun little story" just for kids and Santa Claus is real, you would eventually be looking at a society of people who spend their lives devoted to the teachings of old Saint Nick (which would be kinda cool, given the naughty and nice lists, maybe we'd be better people).
    Well, for an partial answer to your point, we can look to a different kind of experimental society, started in the mid-20 Century, in which people were taught that religion is not just a fun story but a dangerous one. Sixty years later, that society is home to the fastest growing population of Christians.
  7. #1287  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, for an partial answer to your point, we can look to a different kind of experimental society, started in the mid-20 Century, in which people were taught that religion is not just a fun story but a dangerous one. Sixty years later, that society is home to the fastest growing population of Christians.
    Very interesting, I know nothing about this community...
    Care to share more about it, or link sites to reference?
  8. #1288  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    If I understand your question correctly, I don't see it as hiding anything or being in any respect less reliable on subjects it was intended to discuss. Would a book about automotive repair that doesn't touch on the subject of international labor relations be any less accurate or worthy in respect to automotive repair?
    You're correct in your analogy yes. However don't you think thats part of the reason why threads like this exist in the first place? Because Christianity doesnt explain/answer fundamental things it makes us look in other directions. If Christianity (say) properly explained why God does exist (not explicitly/directly, but by providing text that we cant really fault -scientifically sound) than there wouldnt really be need for threads like these, so to speak?

    But using your analogy, an automotive repair book goes into further detail about how to replace a tyre (crude example) on a F1 car with a specialized non slip tyre as opposed to regular tyres, and has a sub section dedicated as to why non slip tyres are the best for racing.

    Surely that book is better (and consequently not doubt/ponder why not this other tyre) rather than a automotive repair book which doesnt explain why a certain tyre is better, a mechanic may 'wander off' and try something else - religious equivalent being 'going astray?'.
  9.    #1289  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Thanks for your viewpoints, it's good to see no immature name calling or flaming going on in this thread (which is what i had half expected, i must admit - given the name of the thread).

    I would like to participate in the discussion and add my 0.02 if you may. And for that i should firstly introduce my 'spiritual' background. I am an agnostic and searching for 'the truth' so to speak. I have studied many religions (and science) over the years in order to single out what seems legitimate to me, without any bias.

    Now, from what i've read of the thread (albeit little) i have noticed the exclusion of a significant other holy literature, this may surprise some of you as to me mentioning this, but has anyone ever considered the quran?
    ...
    It's been my recent 'topic' of interest so to speak and as a result have studied the religion in somewhat depth, though cautiously, i may add.
    I welcome your insights (as well as anyone else's) on other faiths. Ideally I'd like to have more than one knowledgeable person (sort of like a "self correcting" mechanism) for each religion we discuss. Since you are the first, I think we need to trust that you'll be able to accurately present the views/teachings found in the Qur'an. I'm glad you are here and I'm pretty sure I'd be speaking for most of our readers in saying "welcome".
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  10.    #1290  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Sorry for going on the quran/islam mantra, but its been my studies of interest rather of late, and its surprising how many of you have left this out. Well, maybe not, i realize many simply go with popular scriptures, such as bible and havent really done any individual research, however that's a whole different thing.
    Your views are welcome and I expect them to be educational for most of us here!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11.    #1291  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Heres why I ask...
    I just found out about an hour ago the my Grandfather died (RIP) , and after I found out I turned on my Pandora and "Jah Live" by Bob Marley came on....
    Catching up. I'm sorry to hear about your family's loss of your grandfather. I think the Bob Marley music was a good thing to ease your mind. I will keep your grandfather, your family, and you in my prayers as I attend Mass tomorrow.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12.    #1292  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    There seems to be as much literature available on Santa Claus as there is on Christianity. Why do children hold on to religion and let Santa Claus go as a "fun Christmas story for kids"? Same question for the Easter bunny, the boogie man, leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, the man in the moon, etc. One reason is because parents continue to push religion long after they admit Santa Claus and the other characters are fiction. If you were to start an experimental community (this is hypothetical) where, around 10 or 12 years of age, children learn from their parents and society that religion is a "fun little story" just for kids and Santa Claus is real, you would eventually be looking at a society of people who spend their lives devoted to the teachings of old Saint Nick (which would be kinda cool, given the naughty and nice lists, maybe we'd be better people).
    Are you sure about leprechauns?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13.    #1293  
    Quote Originally Posted by tennenho View Post
    No, God doesn't exist.

    It's an idea made up by someone who led a bad life and wanted a do-over, or by someone who had a good life and didn't want it to end. Imagine a place we go after we die, where everything is perfect. Where all the mistakes we made are simply forgiven without having to undo them, and where we're reunited with all the loved ones we've lost. Where the pain of this world is no more.

    And simpletons buy into it, and kill each other squabbling over which imaginary version is true.
    I need to respond to your post on a few levels:
    1. The "tone" seems a little "border line" (compared with the rest of the thread). I'm not saying that the tone was bad, just that most of us try to put a bit more "thought" into our posts (specifically about why we hold such a belief). You'll have the opportunity here to provide examples of what you mentioned in your 2nd paragraph. (I'm not saying I don't believe you, just that you should back this up with some examples/references).
    2. The terms "simpletons" and "squabbling" are bordering on (if not downright) name calling. I'm sure these words accurately describe your feelings (so I don't want to discount them). I'll just ask that you try and keep it clear that these are your view rather than an insult (so the conversation does not degenerate).
    3. I like where you've been going in your subsequent posts. - welcome to the discussion!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #1294  
    Well, the existence of god is always a very polemic subject because it always leads up to the matter of 'faith', which is, a 'very personal belief that needs no evidence'. I'm not saying I believe in god but to say that one religion is 'better' than the other because its holy book (quran) 'kinda' 'sounds like' 'more scientifc' than the other (the bible) makes no sense. First because all religious text is subject to personal interpretation, second because the 'approach' of any holy book to the universe's phenomena is totally contrary to science's methodology. Science observes reality, raises up logical models and verifies them through causality and evidence. Religious text bases itself on pure 'faith', nothing more. These are very different areas of knowledge. It makes no sense to answer a scientific question with religion the same way it makes no sense to answer a religious question with science. Because of that, it also doesn't make sense to try and prove the existence of god bases on 'gaps' on our scientific knowledge too. For example: we have no idea yet why the particles of the atom have the exact mass they have or why the laws of physics behave exactly like they do but these are scientific questions, why should we use god to explain them since god is contrary to the very methodology that made up the question in the first place.
    I believe that also leads up to a wrong notion of god. God is an archetype of the human mind that has always served to 'connect' the individual with the whole, which is, the universe and man himself. God wasn't 'invented' to 'explain things', that's the 'god of explanation'. God has evolved with man becase through time our notion of the universe has changed so has our morality and values. When we lived in the forest as tribes we performed live/death rituals with the forest becase our life depended on it and because the forest and earth were our universe. Later on we left tribes and delevoped 'individuality' so we began 'reaching god' through that with our own compassion and love (catholic religion). Those are just examples, I'm don't have much knowledge of all religions but that seems to be the case, I've read a bit of psychology and mythology (joseph campbell) and it seems to make sense.
    No one can prove the existence of god, even less through look-like 'scientific' 'unaccurate' passages on a holy book because as I explained before, it makes no sense.
  15.    #1295  
    Welcome sloopjohnb!

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Well, the existence of god is always a very polemic subject because it always leads up to the matter of 'faith', which is, a 'very personal belief that needs no evidence'.
    Yes, I think most of us here agree with your observation about faith, even it being a 'very personal belief', but as a group, we likely each differ on whether 'evidence' is needed or not. My hope for the thread was that we explore whether people's religious beliefs are "logical" in any sort of way or not. There will always be people on each extreme end of a range here and there will be some "more tolerant" (or perhaps "more inquisitive") people who may want to explore various rational explanations for some people's faiths.

    Religion is a very complex beast and there is often contradiction between faiths. Religion is also something that most of us (myself included) do not understand as well as maybe we could. Maybe in the end we'll all end up in a big fight here, but for now, we've been pretty effective in understanding and learning from each other. We're just starting to see a new view. "New stuff" always "scares me" a bit (creates anxiety) but I had plenty of that before this thread started and the discussion so far has lessened my anxiety (and probably that of many other readers/participants here as well).

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    ... all religious text is subject to personal interpretation, second because the 'approach' of any holy book to the universe's phenomena is totally contrary to science's methodology. Science observes reality, raises up logical models and verifies them through causality and evidence.
    I'd question whether the Bible was meant to be "personally interpreted". This view seems to have originated around the same time as the printing press. Before then, the Bible was mostly read aloud to faithful by teachers trained in the book.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    ... It makes no sense to answer a scientific question with religion the same way it makes no sense to answer a religious question with science. Because of that, it also doesn't make sense to try and prove the existence of god bases on 'gaps' on our scientific knowledge too....
    I agree, but I also believe that if a God made both, and each are a form of "truth", that one should not contradict the other. There may be cases where our understanding of each may need to give based on "discoveries" in one or the other. Christians generally limit their "divine revelation" to what was taught by the Apostles - so this essentially limits "new divine revelations" among this segment of religious society. Christians may believe "Private" revelation (that is messages intended for individuals) still occurs.

    Whether Christians beliefs are "correct" (or for that matter, any other religion) is something we each individually need to decide. This is exactly the sort of "faith" I believe you were referring. to.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    ... God wasn't 'invented' to 'explain things', that's the 'god of explanation'. ...
    Interesting observation (and one I'm inclined to agree with). I'm going to keep this in mind as I learn from Shadow-360.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I've read a bit of psychology and mythology (joseph campbell) and it seems to make sense.
    Please feel free to sumarize some of this if you think it will help the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    No one can prove the existence of god, even less through look-like 'scientific' 'unaccurate' passages on a holy book because as I explained before, it makes no sense.
    My hope is to "raise awareness" about how and why people interpret the Bible differently. I think a lot of people's negative views of the Bible are due to "uneducatedness" (or simple lack of understanding of why various people believe what they believe. I suspect the same may be true for other "holy books". In the end, your assertion that "No one can prove the existence of god" is going to end up being true. I just think our judgments regarding beliefs other than our own is less of an "open and closed case" than many of us understand them to be.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #1296  
    Hi sudoer,
    I understand that you were trying to raise discussion on whether people's notion of god were in any way logical but in my opinion that discussion already ends in its beginning because god is supposedly a 'non-logical' concept.
    What I meant about 'personal interpretations' of the bible is first that the whole belief in the bible is subject to faith which is a 'personal experience', second there are different religions that base themselves on the bible, reading it more 'literally' or more 'metaphorically' depending on the 'faith' or belief, therefore there are different interpretations of the bible.
    About science and religion, what I was trying to say is that they do contradict each other on how they observe and interpret reality, that's why it makes no sense trying to explain one with the other.
    I believe that god's existence can't be proven. If one believes in god, it's because of subject reasons, also culture and education. Your god would be different if you were a hindu or budist. No one can prove you that god exists and trying to raise logical explanations for its existence doesn't lead anywhere because in its essence, as I said before, god is a non logical concept.
  17. #1297  
    Thanks for your input and your insight and its very welcomed. However i am going to have to say that i disagree on most accounts;

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    there are different religions that base themselves on the bible
    Ummm no, what gave you that idea? If anything from my extensive research over the years the Bible has been corupted through generations, a 'well-documented' fact, also if any holy scripture has been copied, it's that the bible has been copied from the Quran.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    reading it more 'literally' or more 'metaphorically' depending on the 'faith' or belief, therefore there are different interpretations of the bible.
    There should only be one unanimous interpretation which coincides by that is reality, when people have 'interpretations' without any solid basis, thats where problems occur, such as this thread. Having personal interpretations leads to people performing actions which are sinful, but by their 'own interpretation' it isnt. Is this a get out of jail free card?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    About science and religion, what I was trying to say is that they do contradict each other on how they observe and interpret reality, that's why it makes no sense trying to explain one with the other.
    Thats where i feel you're most wrong, If a religion is correct, they should NEVER contradict each other, why should they? What could contradict something which is 'the truth'.

    I feel youre making irrational judgements based on something which doesnt hold true to the basis of reality. why would reality contradict god's existence/true religion when he infact created them?

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    I believe that god's existence can't be proven. If one believes in god, it's because of subject reasons, also culture and education.
    Of course, some level of faith is needed, 'believing in the unknown'. But a religion should be such as to never cause doubt.

    A true religion should show the way of life, free from corruption and evil, which brings about inner peace. Which explains what to do in each situation in life. Which explains phenomena scientifically which coincides with reality. Which tells you what to do should you have a specific illness etc. If all these are done, how can you deny the creator's existence (of this true religion)

    True, some people do believe in God because of these reasons, but others (like me) choose to research and find their own way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    Your god would be different if you were a hindu or budist
    Doesnt mean they exist, they have what, thousands of Gods?
    Quote Originally Posted by sloopjohnb View Post
    trying to raise logical explanations for its existence doesn't lead anywhere because in its essence, as I said before, god is a non logical concept
    That's the response you get when something you 'believe' in fails to provide a valid basis for why should believe in it in the first place. Your reasoning is illogical in my opinion.

    Apologies if i sounded harsh, but thats how i feel from your viewpoints.
  18. #1298  
    Hindu's do not have 'thousands of Gods'. They have one God, who manifests himself in different ways according to his mood. Their bible (Bhagavad Gita) was written around 500 years before Christ, and actually includes all the great prophets/beings of all the different religions. Mohammed is in there, as is Jesus.
    I am not religious, but I do live with 2 devout Hindu's and have been to religious tours/gatherings with them many a time. I cannot prove the existence or lack of a God so I would say I am agnostic.
    However so many religious texts of many religions have been warped by man as a means to cause war and suffering, different bibles have been rewritten and translated countless times by people who made errors or interpreted it how they liked.
    Anybody who says to me 'MY God is the only God and every other God is false' has an ego/intolerance problem and is naiive. I will walk away immediately. I believe, if there is a God, then call him Allah, Jehovah, Krishna, God, Buddha, it is all the same God being worshipped in a different way by different cultures. Who are we to tell people what is right and wrong? Unless you have personally met God, you cannot possibly say with 100% certainty that 'MY God (insert name here) is the only God and yours are all false idols'
    Whilst I am not religious, I do take some things from the Hindu scriptures, I do not eat any meat as I believe it is cruel to murder a defenceless animal (I am not going to get into an anti-vegetarian argument here just to soothe meat-eaters ego's, it is what I personally believe to be right) and I wear no leather or fur. I try to be moral and consider others. Hopefully I will have a religious experience at some point because I would like to know, But until then I remain tolerant of all religions, (that have not been corrupted by man's greed)
    Absolutely mental Depeche Mode fan since 1988, iPhone themer, app UI design, PM me for anything graphics-wise.
  19. #1299  
    Quote Originally Posted by pumpa View Post
    Hindu's do not have 'thousands of Gods'. They have one God, who manifests himself in different ways according to his mood.
    Apologies, youre correct on that front, should have stated myself more clearly.

    I was referring to the 'incarnations' of God. Each Representing the many aspects of only one supreme Absolute called “Brahman. Though as i understand it doesnt advocate the worshipping of any one particular.

    With reference to the above, within Hinduism a large number of personalities, or 'forms', are worshipped as murtis. In which case there are 330,000 of these supernatural beings in various Hindu traditions.

    I Agree with you on all other fronts. And you make valid points.
  20. #1300  
    Hinduism (which isn't it's correct title but I will use this as it is easier) has many different incarnations. Some people worship 'Demigods' (expansions of the Supreme Being) and some worship Krishna as being the Supreme Being, it gets quite complicated!
    Absolutely mental Depeche Mode fan since 1988, iPhone themer, app UI design, PM me for anything graphics-wise.

Posting Permissions