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  1. #1261  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    My major problem when it comes to the non belief of a creator is this, if you look at the elements they are all that we are made of correct? So say you had a box full of parts to make a quad (4 wheeler) or something like that. Would ever in a million billion years would you believe that it may actually build its self by any imagination or circumstance? That is how i see our creation, we are exponentially more complexed than any quad could ever be yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever else some people believe, I just don't buy it for even a second that all life wasn't intelligently designed.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickDG View Post
    It's all math. The universe is so large we can't even fathom it, and when you take that into account, plus the billion years of time, anything can happen especially when dealing with the volatile substances in our universe.
    So in other words jwinn,
    If you shake a box full of parts for a quad, billions of years from now, they will all come together as a fully operable quad.
    Just call me Berd.
  2. #1262  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Because the Bible is Truth!
    I dont fully get it either! I think that is primarily what this thread has been revolving around...
    But for all that havent read up on it yet
    neurotheology article
    That answers a lot of questions (esp on why people are as religious as they are and why they may follow the bible) and raises a lot more questions too!
    Im surprised I expected more responses on this article, but I gues everything I like cant interest everyone!
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I'm suggesting this "tack" since the Christians claim that the Bible is 'Revelation from God" (that we would not know other than because "God told us" these things). If this revealed word can be proven either useful or not, that may help some to "see what I see" or for me to either continue in my acceptance of the Bible as revelation or to "throw it out".

    I see this as a "first and prerequisite step" for Agnostics and Atheists to see our "POV".

    I don't believe God's revelation is limited to that written in the Bible. Jesus' and the Apostles' oral teachings should also count. Lastly there is "private revelation" but I don't see that being something useful to all (so I'd suggest we limit our discussion here unless it's really relevant).

    Those are my "reasons" for the current "prophecy" discussion, but I'm open to other criteria you might want to suggest. I also believe we can have multiple parallel discussions going on. (For instance, early church discussions, science discussions, and even non Judeau-Christian discussions.)

    Please let us know what else we should be thinking about at this time.
    Thanks for your viewpoints, it's good to see no immature name calling or flaming going on in this thread (which is what i had half expected, i must admit - given the name of the thread).

    I would like to participate in the discussion and add my 0.02 if you may. And for that i should firstly introduce my 'spiritual' background. I am an agnostic and searching for 'the truth' so to speak. I have studied many religions (and science) over the years in order to single out what seems legitimate to me, without any bias.

    Now, from what i've read of the thread (albeit little) i have noticed the exclusion of a significant other holy literature, this may surprise some of you as to me mentioning this, but has anyone ever considered the quran? Surprising as it is (terrorism aside, believe me it does not advocate this), i havent really found anything to refute what has been said (as of yet) and most, if not all proclamations coincide with science, and even recent scientific discoveries.

    It's been my recent 'topic' of interest so to speak and as a result have studied the religion in somewhat depth, though cautiously, i may add.

    Basically, i'm not going to say why something is right, but i do feel quran to be more accurate than the bible in many ways, in fact, i havent found 'a holy book' yet which is more accurate. Feel free to correct me and/or add your view, i am a learner afterall. Believe me the bible has some major flaws, but if you dont think so, that's totally fine with me.

    However i came to see your viewpoints, what's your beliefs, and why?

    -On the subject of time, physicists have stated that time was also created, when the universe was, therefore outside the universe there is no time, presumable where god is, no? Where there is no end and no beginning?

    You can add the logic to science if you wish, ok, there is no god, so what is there outside the universe? if you look at M theory, it states that there are an infinite number of universes outside ours. But wheres the beginning, is there a beginning? When was the first universe created. It's an exact paradox of the religious side of things, saying what was there before god? The truth is we can never answer these questions. But rather look at what we do have, religious texts tries to explain the reason for us, everything. And we should look at it in the way that what seems truthful, based on what we have. On my findings, the quran, revealed more than 1400 years ago, has some astonishing coincidence with recent scientific findings (examples? Ask).

    Sorry for going on the quran/islam mantra, but its been my studies of interest rather of late, and its surprising how many of you have left this out. Well, maybe not, i realize many simply go with popular scriptures, such as bible and havent really done any individual research, however that's a whole different thing.
  3. #1263  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    there are millions and millions of years between verse1:1 in genesis and verse 1:2 is what alot of scholars believe in the christian church! i dont have any reason to doubt it at all . if you actually studied up on it alot of creationists believe that the earth is quite old in fact lol
    That sounds like a convenient response to the relatively new idea regarding the age of the earth. I've heard some Christians say the Earth is about 7,000 years old, according to the bible. My response: about 7,000 years ago the Sumerians invented glue.
  4. #1264  
    No, God doesn't exist.

    It's an idea made up by someone who led a bad life and wanted a do-over, or by someone who had a good life and didn't want it to end. Imagine a place we go after we die, where everything is perfect. Where all the mistakes we made are simply forgiven without having to undo them, and where we're reunited with all the loved ones we've lost. Where the pain of this world is no more.

    And simpletons buy into it, and kill each other squabbling over which imaginary version is true.
  5. #1265  
    I believe there could be a "Higher "Spirit" but I highly doubt that it has a conscience.
  6. #1266  
    Quote Originally Posted by tennenho View Post
    No, God doesn't exist.

    It's an idea made up by someone who led a bad life and wanted a do-over, or by someone who had a good life and didn't want it to end. Imagine a place we go after we die, where everything is perfect. Where all the mistakes we made are simply forgiven without having to undo them, and where we're reunited with all the loved ones we've lost. Where the pain of this world is no more.

    And simpletons buy into it, and kill each other squabbling over which imaginary version is true.
    Oh C'mon! Coming from someone that was once atheist now agnostic and not religious by any means, that was a poor history/statement of religion!

    I appreciate the fact that you dont believe in a god, I was there...
    But can you clarify who that someone who created religion was? Religion has been around for over 7,000 years, and first documented by Egyptians... "Living a bad life" was a very common life style back then! Religion was originally created, IMO, to explain how things work in our world, when there science was not as advanced. Religion was not originally created to cleanse your soul of sins, there were rituals and sacrifices to appease the Gods for better fortunes, mostly environmental. Later religions started adressing life habits, and good and bad deeds, and how to get into heaven varying by each religion.

    And no reason to call out the believers as simpletons, we all are when it comes to our knowledge of science or God. I do admit IMO science is farther advanced than the understanding or faith of God.

    Every knows there is science not every one knows there is a God.
  7. #1267  
    Ok so heres an interesting question...
    You all know by now im sitting on the agnostic fence. I have a question:

    Will God communicate to oneself by means of another religion?

    Heres why I ask...
    I just found out about an hour ago the my Grandfather died (RIP) , and after I found out I turned on my Pandora and "Jah Live" by Bob Marley came on....
    Jah is the term for God in Rasta or for Jehovah's Witnesses.... Which have a very different religious beliefs than Christians or Catholics?
  8. #1268  
    Quote Originally Posted by tennenho View Post
    No, God doesn't exist.

    It's an idea made up by someone who led a bad life and wanted a do-over, or by someone who had a good life and didn't want it to end. Imagine a place we go after we die, where everything is perfect. Where all the mistakes we made are simply forgiven without having to undo them, and where we're reunited with all the loved ones we've lost. Where the pain of this world is no more.

    And simpletons buy into it, and kill each other squabbling over which imaginary version is true.
    My 16 year old recently asked me, knowing I'm an agnostic, where we go after we die. I asked him, "where were you before you were born?". He said, "I don't know". I said, "that's where you will be when you die". It was interesting to watch him digest that. Not nearly as convenient as a glorious place in the clouds with all your loved ones and lots of good food and etc.

    Hearing the conversation, my younger kid told me, "heaven is where people go when they die". I asked him if dogs also go to heaven when they die? He said yes. I asked him if cats and other pets also go to heaven when they die? He said yes. I asked him if Kangaroos go to heaven when they die. He said no and thought I was silly for asking. So, according to my 8 year old, people and their pets go to heaven, and all the rest of "gods creatures" go somewhere else... A simple question that reinforces why children gobble up religion so easily.
  9. #1269  
    Quote Originally Posted by tennenho View Post
    No, God doesn't exist.

    It's an idea made up by someone who led a bad life and wanted a do-over, or by someone who had a good life and didn't want it to end. Imagine a place we go after we die, where everything is perfect. Where all the mistakes we made are simply forgiven without having to undo them, and where we're reunited with all the loved ones we've lost. Where the pain of this world is no more.

    And simpletons buy into it, and kill each other squabbling over which imaginary version is true.
    That is about the size of it...
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  10. #1270  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Oh C'mon! Coming from someone that was once atheist now agnostic and not religious by any means, that was a poor history/statement of religion!

    I appreciate the fact that you dont believe in a god, I was there...
    But can you clarify who that someone who created religion was? Religion has been around for over 7,000 years, and first documented by Egyptians... "Living a bad life" was a very common life style back then! Religion was originally created, IMO, to explain how things work in our world, when there science was not as advanced. Religion was not originally created to cleanse your soul of sins, there were rituals and sacrifices to appease the Gods for better fortunes, mostly environmental. Later religions started adressing life habits, and good and bad deeds, and how to get into heaven varying by each religion.

    And no reason to call out the believers as simpletons, we all are when it comes to our knowledge of science or God. I do admit IMO science is farther advanced than the understanding or faith of God.

    Every knows there is science not every one knows there is a God.
    Some ancient king, most likely, who wanted immortality. He hadn't gotten the answer he'd wanted from every other fool he'd asked, and had beheaded each of them in anger. So one person, when asked, got wise and instead of saying "we die, and that's it, like every other living thing" he said "oh, your Majesty, don't worry. You'll never die. Just accept that this Eternal Being made everything and exists so that humans always have a 'get out of jail free' card, and never need fear death or loss, and you'll have no worries."

    And with that, the fool saved his own life. And the king, the next time death came up in conversation, said something to the effect of "I'm not GOING to die. I'm going to a castle in the clouds when I leave this earthly body. I'll have everything I've ever wanted or needed, and I'll be able to eat anything I want and stay fit, and I'll dance and sing with my parents again and with my dead dog, and every bad thing I've ever done will simply be erased."

    And the others involved in that conversation thought that sounded pretty good, and asked how they could get a piece of that action. And he said, "simple. All you have to do is believe...."

    And so on.

    As to the "simpletons" statement, there's only so much truth with which one can be faced before either changing one's outlook or brazenly refusing in the face of logic. To be faced with the certainty that dead is dead, but then to contrarily believe that that only holds true for non-humans, makes you simple. To believe something that's completely implausible in light of mountains of logical, scientific, and rational evidence to the contrary makes you gullible.

    Show me ONE piece of evidence that God exists that isn't based on conjecture. Prove it to me. I'm a rational being. If you prove it, I'll believe it. I understand the need for faith; I understand its purpose. But there's a point at which faith that's blind becomes laughable.
    Last edited by tennenho; 03/06/2010 at 02:13 PM. Reason: missed a couple words in the edit
  11. #1271  
    We also know now that there are billions of stars, each similar in character to our own sun, and that each of them has the capability to support a solar system, again very much like our own. Yet, in these billions of solar systems, I'm told I should believe there's no intelligent life, because God created Us in His own Image, right here on Earth, and That's All There Is To It.

    B.S.
  12. #1272  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Ok so heres an interesting question...
    You all know by now im sitting on the agnostic fence. I have a question:

    Will God communicate to oneself by means of another religion?
    Nope.

    There may well be (and likely is) a lifeform more intelligent than we. But if that's the case, it's only a deity because we've deified it.
  13. #1273  
    Quote Originally Posted by tennenho View Post
    We also know now that there are billions of stars, each similar in character to our own sun, and that each of them has the capability to support a solar system, again very much like our own. Yet, in these billions of solar systems, I'm told I should believe there's no intelligent life, because God created Us in His own Image, right here on Earth, and That's All There Is To It.

    B.S.
    Thats what the bible says. Not religion as a whole. Who said the bible is right?

    Other religious texts say there are many more earths, each with the capacity to support intelligent organisms. Thus rendering this argument, invalid
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    #1274  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Thats what the bible says. Not religion as a whole. Who said the bible is right?

    Other religious texts say there are many more earths, each with the capacity to support intelligent organisms. Thus rendering this argument, invalid
    Actually, the Bible doesn't speak to extra-terrestrial life. I believe that's a popular misconception.
  15. #1275  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Thanks for your viewpoints, it's good to see no immature name calling or flaming going on in this thread (which is what i had half expected, i must admit - given the name of the thread).

    I would like to participate in the discussion and add my 0.02 if you may. And for that i should firstly introduce my 'spiritual' background. I am an agnostic and searching for 'the truth' so to speak. I have studied many religions (and science) over the years in order to single out what seems legitimate to me, without any bias....

    On my findings, the quran, revealed more than 1400 years ago, has some astonishing coincidence with recent scientific findings (examples? Ask).

    Sorry for going on the quran/islam mantra, but its been my studies of interest rather of late, and its surprising how many of you have left this out. Well, maybe not, i realize many simply go with popular scriptures, such as bible and havent really done any individual research, however that's a whole different thing.
    Welcome to the discussion this thread has been primarily the discussion of christian and catholic beliefs w/ a touch of other convo's... But Im sure many of us less educated on the quran would love to hear its insights and also try tu debunk it! And I would personally love some examples of scientific correlation and the quran

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Why are people basing their existence of god beliefs solely on biblical literature?

    Just find it a tad ironic, that's all.
    Now that you explained your "path" I find your first comment on the thread interesting? I wouldnt have expected you to be "following" any religious scripture cause ultimately isnt the quran, a Muslim's biblical scripture?
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #1276  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    My 16 year old recently asked me, knowing I'm an agnostic, where we go after we die. I asked him, "where were you before you were born?". He said, "I don't know". I said, "that's where you will be when you die". It was interesting to watch him digest that. Not nearly as convenient as a glorious place in the clouds with all your loved ones and lots of good food and etc.

    Hearing the conversation, my younger kid told me, "heaven is where people go when they die". I asked him if dogs also go to heaven when they die? He said yes. I asked him if cats and other pets also go to heaven when they die? He said yes. I asked him if Kangaroos go to heaven when they die. He said no and thought I was silly for asking. So, according to my 8 year old, people and their pets go to heaven, and all the rest of "gods creatures" go somewhere else... A simple question that reinforces why children gobble up religion so easily.
    Kids gobble up all sorts of information. At first, they have very simplistic notions of these things and as they grow older their understanding deepens. Sometimes they reject those earlier notions and other times they embrace them more fully. That's a universal fact and doesn't necessarily speak to the veracity or rationality of a thing.
  17. #1277  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Actually, the Bible doesn't speak to extra-terrestrial life. I believe that's a popular misconception.
    That then brings around an interesting point. Isnt a scripture which talks about something and tries to make us understand as to a subject, better than a scripture which avoids the issue altogether?

    If the bible is the divine truth, there shouldn't be anything to hide, so to speak?
  18. #1278  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Kids gobble up all sorts of information. At first, they have very simplistic notions of these things and as they grow older their understanding deepens. Sometimes they reject those earlier notions and other times they embrace them more fully. That's a universal fact and doesn't necessarily speak to the veracity or rationality of a thing.
    There seems to be as much literature available on Santa Claus as there is on Christianity. Why do children hold on to religion and let Santa Claus go as a "fun Christmas story for kids"? Same question for the Easter bunny, the boogie man, leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, the man in the moon, etc. One reason is because parents continue to push religion long after they admit Santa Claus and the other characters are fiction. If you were to start an experimental community (this is hypothetical) where, around 10 or 12 years of age, children learn from their parents and society that religion is a "fun little story" just for kids and Santa Claus is real, you would eventually be looking at a society of people who spend their lives devoted to the teachings of old Saint Nick (which would be kinda cool, given the naughty and nice lists, maybe we'd be better people).
  19. #1279  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Welcome to the discussion this thread has been primarily the discussion of christian and catholic beliefs w/ a touch of other convo's... But Im sure many of us less educated on the quran would love to hear its insights and also try tu debunk it! And I would personally love some examples of scientific correlation and the quran
    Thanks for the introduction . I personally dont have a problem discussing beliefs, i think its great in fact, and i must say pleasantly surprised on the maturity level of the discussion taking place. With regards to some examples, these are below; (N.B. There are many, based on various subjects, but i'll concentrate on the 'environmental' aspects -Simple ones)

    1- Isnt the universe expanding?

    1^^"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
    (The Qur'an, 51:47)


    2-I'm pretty sure all life is made up of water, aren't scientist's using this as a criteria for searching for E.T? Also, arent both stars and their subsequent planets both formed from the same nebula?

    2^^"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
    (The Qur'an, 21:30)"


    2 Have not those who disbelieved known that the heavens and the earth were one connected entity, then We separated them?... (Quran, 21:30)

    3-Need i explain how rain is formed? Clouds are carried along by the wind, then small clouds (which are cumulus) driven along the wind to join and form larger clouds. Updrafts (caused by the smaller clouds joining together) causes the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up. Vertical growth causes cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger yada yada yada;

    3"Have you not seen how God drives along the clouds, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it? And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) with cold hail in them, striking with it anyone He wills and averting it from anyone He wills. The brightness of His lightning almost blinds the sight."
    (The Qur'an, 24:43)

    4-I'm pretty sure iron is still used today in many scenarios

    4^^"…And We sent down iron in which there lies great force and which has many uses for mankind...."
    (The Qur'an, 57:25)


    4-Mountains are also on the earth's crust ('floaiating' on the mantle layer, which is constantly in motion.

    4^^"You will see the mountains you reckoned to be solid going past like clouds."
    (The Qur'an, 27:88)


    5-It's a well known scientific fact the mountains of the earth have deep roots embedded into the earth way below the surface of the earth . They resembled 'Pegs' Picture for illustration purposes;

    5^^ Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs? (Quran, 78:6-7)

    6-And we all know how the mountains stabilizing the crust of the earth, and as such, 'hinder the shaking of the earth'

    6^^ And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you... (Quran, 16:15)

    The above are more 'specialized' so to speak, there's more generalized ones, if you wish. you may find references to these on other sites, i'll be the first to say that, but believe me when i say i've personally looked at the background of each and every claim and found it irrefutable. Feel free to correct if you feel it needbe!


    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Now that you explained your "path" I find your first comment on the thread interesting? I wouldnt have expected you to be "following" any religious scripture cause ultimately isnt the quran, a Muslim's biblical scripture?
    Ahh, apologies for the confusion, by biblical literature i meant the bible ^_^.

    And yes youre right, i'm not following any as of yet, simple researching hoping to find the truth, so far the quran explains it all. It is permissible to base the existence of god on literature with an explanation, providing it has a valid basis/proof and non some ignorant quote/comment, so to speak.
    Last edited by Adam Carr; 03/06/2010 at 04:14 PM.
  20. #1280  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Thats what the bible says. Not religion as a whole. Who said the bible is right?
    My wife and my In-laws, who would be absolutely aghast to know that I'm even questioning the validity of organized religion, the existence of an all-powerful Creator, or the "fact" that it's Jesus Christ or nothing.

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