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  1. #1241  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    After you listen to Pacwa, if you can tell me whether it's similar to (or different from) what was said in the "Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible" link, that might help me in understanding the extend of exaggerations. I'm happy to drill down in any Catholic based prophecy interpretations you either dispute or don't believe. I'm willing to look outside of Catholic teachings too (but I'm afraid the scope of the problem could really "mushroom" beyond my ability to comprehend).

    Does anyone else have reactions to what's written in the "Fulfilled Prophecy: Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible" link?
    I have not had a chance to yet, but when I do I will compare the 2.
    What Im disputing is the accuracy of the probablities posted in that article.
    (6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom.
    (Probability of chance fulfillment=1 in 10^9.)
    C'mon youre telling me that an area in the world is not likely to be destroyed, and that specific area had only a 1 in 10,000,000,000 chance of being destroyed! I think they said the same about the Titanic! Just kidding.
    What I did not like about the arcticle is that it seemed to attempt "Science" (laws of probability) to prove the existence of God. But the arcticle is clearly biased, what I am still looking for is hard cold scientific research that does not talk probabilities or gives an ultimate answer other than too good to be a coincidence. But I guess its not out there other wise all would know, But I will except even little scientific advances towards the possibility of existence
  2. #1242  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I have not had a chance to yet, but when I do I will compare the 2.
    What Im disputing is the accuracy of the probablities posted in that article.


    C'mon youre telling me that an area in the world is not likely to be destroyed, and that specific area had only a 1 in 10,000,000,000 chance of being destroyed! I think they said the same about the Titanic! Just kidding.
    What I did not like about the arcticle is that it seemed to attempt "Science" (laws of probability) to prove the existence of God. But the arcticle is clearly biased, what I am still looking for is hard cold scientific research that does not talk probabilities or gives an ultimate answer other than too good to be a coincidence. But I guess its not out there other wise all would know, But I will except even little scientific advances towards the possibility of existence
    If the evidence you are looking for existed then there would not be 'creationists' or 'faitists' (if you will) as they could call themselves scientists without repercussion. Also, the cannon is the reason that people stopped building 'indestructible' stone walls as the flying stones coming off the wall were pretty deadly. Finally, damn those were some big walls, and the only reference I can find to Babylon walls of that size are from one web site...guess which one. Yep, Dr. Crackpot's.
  3. #1243  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Has everybody had time to consider my explanation of why God has permitted us to go it alone, and the bad we've brought upon ourselves trying to go it alone?

    If so, I would like to answer now why God hasn't stepped in yet.
    Why he hasn't bailed us out of this mess.

    But first I'd like to throw a wrench into the reasoning that I feel has created much of the confusion toward this whole argument of why God permits suffering.

    So what about these;
    If Adam and Ever never sinned, where would they be today?
    Was it ever his original intention for people to go to heaven?

    If God is testing us to see if we will be good citizens of heaven, what test did the millions of angels have to undergo to prove their worthiness?

    Are there butterflies in heaven? Are there flowers?
    Do people get married and have babies?
    I like to ride dirt bikes. I like the mountains. Will I be able to ride my dirt bike in heaven?

    If all good people who die go to heaven, and all bad people who die go to hell, what's the need for the resurrection?

    Where is Moses? Did he ever accept Jesus as his personal savior?
    Lets keep it rolling!
    I do have one question:
    Dr. Hugh Ross stated that Edgar Cayce as a religious prophet. An interesting read on Cayce:
    According to the Cayce material, Jesus and Adam were different incarnations of the same Christ soul.
    Adam -Adam was the first "son of man" and "son of God"; the Christ soul after his incarnation into a physical body (corresponding to Genesis 2).
    So does that mean that Adam was Jesus? So Jesus sinned, then Jesus came back and sacrificed himself for all the sin he has caused? So we are all born into sin bc of Jesus? That also means that Jesus ignored the word of his Father? Which according to the Bible he shouldve been stoned? And also means that Satan outsmarted Jesus, Man we could all be in a lot of trouble!?
    Last edited by gsonspre; 03/05/2010 at 04:24 PM.
  4. #1244  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Lets keep it rolling!
    I do have one question:
    Dr. Hugh Ross stated that Edgar Cayce as a religious prophet. An interesting read on Cayce:


    So does that mean that Adam was Jesus? So Jesus sinned, then Jesus came back and sacrificed himself for all the sin he has caused? So we are all born into sin bc of Jesus? That also means that Jesus ignored the word of his Father? Which according to the Bible he shouldve been stoned? And also means that Satan outsmarted Jesus, Man we could all be in a lot of trouble!?
    *yawn* Edgar Cayce (A.K.A. - the Sleeping Prophet). I have read some funny stuff in my day but I have to say his stuff is hilarious, and quite possibly to the point of ludicrous.
  5. #1245  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Lets keep it rolling!
    I do have one question:
    Dr. Hugh Ross stated that Edgar Cayce as a religious prophet. An interesting read on Cayce:
    According to the Cayce material, Jesus and Adam were different incarnations of the same Christ soul.
    Adam -Adam was the first "son of man" and "son of God"; the Christ soul after his incarnation into a physical body (corresponding to Genesis 2).
    So does that mean that Adam was Jesus? So Jesus sinned, then Jesus came back and sacrificed himself for all the sin he has caused? So we are all born into sin bc of Jesus? That also means that Jesus ignored the word of his Father? Which according to the Bible he shouldve been stoned? And also means that Satan outsmarted Jesus, Man we could all be in a lot of trouble!?
    I almost want to cry when I read crap like that.
    Thanks for seeing it as the stupidity it is.
    Just call me Berd.
  6. #1246  
    Just call me Berd.
  7.    #1247  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    *yawn* Edgar Cayce (A.K.A. - the Sleeping Prophet). I have read some funny stuff in my day but I have to say his stuff is hilarious, and quite possibly to the point of ludicrous.
    Just so y'all know, for the moment, I'm letting others weigh in with their comments (while I do a bit of my own study first). I need to start by understanding what my Church teaches before I "branch out" into other sources. Just say "@sudoer" if you really want me to look at something in the meantime. -- thx
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #1248  
    Why are people basing their existence of god beliefs solely on biblical literature?

    Just find it a tad ironic, that's all.
  9. #1249  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Why are people basing their existence of god beliefs solely on biblical literature?

    Just find it a tad ironic, that's all.
    Because the Bible is Truth!
    I dont fully get it either! I think that is primarily what this thread has been revolving around...
    But for all that havent read up on it yet
    neurotheology article
    That answers a lot of questions (esp on why people are as religious as they are and why they may follow the bible) and raises a lot more questions too!
    Im surprised I expected more responses on this article, but I gues everything I like cant interest everyone!
  10.    #1250  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow-360 View Post
    Why are people basing their existence of god beliefs solely on biblical literature?

    Just find it a tad ironic, that's all.
    I'm suggesting this "tack" since the Christians claim that the Bible is 'Revelation from God" (that we would not know other than because "God told us" these things). If this revealed word can be proven either useful or not, that may help some to "see what I see" or for me to either continue in my acceptance of the Bible as revelation or to "throw it out".

    I see this as a "first and prerequisite step" for Agnostics and Atheists to see our "POV".

    I don't believe God's revelation is limited to that written in the Bible. Jesus' and the Apostles' oral teachings should also count. Lastly there is "private revelation" but I don't see that being something useful to all (so I'd suggest we limit our discussion here unless it's really relevant).

    Those are my "reasons" for the current "prophecy" discussion, but I'm open to other criteria you might want to suggest. I also believe we can have multiple parallel discussions going on. (For instance, early church discussions, science discussions, and even non Judeau-Christian discussions.)

    Please let us know what else we should be thinking about at this time.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11.    #1251  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Because the Bible is Truth! ...
    Just to clarify (for any "new" readers in the thread), gsonspre is probably not convinced of or adheres to a belief that the Bible is inspired truth. I say that "healthy skepticism" is best and I'm counting on some of our readers to "keep this objective"!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #1252  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    My major problem when it comes to the non belief of a creator is this, if you look at the elements they are all that we are made of correct? So say you had a box full of parts to make a quad (4 wheeler) or something like that. Would ever in a million billion years would you believe that it may actually build its self by any imagination or circumstance? That is how i see our creation, we are exponentially more complexed than any quad could ever be yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever else some people believe, I just don't buy it for even a second that all life wasn't intelligently designed.
    I find it equally hard to believe there is intelligence behind our "design". There is water and subsequently bacteria on Mars -- where is the intelligence in that? Planetary bodies and stars are formed and destroyed regularly throughout our galaxy and in other galaxies across the universe, where is the intelligence in that? The genetic sequence of the human male is closer to the genetic sequence of a male chimpanzee than a female human, does this suggest intelligence? Seems random to me.

    You said "yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever". That's ironic, the scientific community says that life evolved on Earth slowly over billions of years, religion says the universe was created in 6 days. Which of these ideas do you consider "lightening or whatever"?
    Last edited by joshaccount; 03/05/2010 at 06:24 PM.
  13.    #1253  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I find it equally hard to believe there is intelligence behind our "design". There is water and subsequently bacteria on Mars -- where is the intelligence in that?
    Are you saying that elements and compounds capable of supporting life should only be where humans exist? What about Carbon, should we limit that to our planet too? Why do you think it would be more intelligent/efficient to limit oxidized hydrogen to where we live? I'd think that would be "more work for a creator" (and in that sense, less intelligent/efficient).

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    You said "yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever". That's ironic, the scientific community says that life evolved slowly over billions of years, religion says the universe was created in 6 days.
    • Who here said anything like us coming into existence from lightning or whatever?
    • Not all religions say the universe (or even the earth) was created in 6 days. Who among us is saying the Earth was created in 6 days? The Bible does not say that if you "read it properly" either.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #1254  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35 View Post
    My major problem when it comes to the non belief of a creator is this, if you look at the elements they are all that we are made of correct? So say you had a box full of parts to make a quad (4 wheeler) or something like that. Would ever in a million billion years would you believe that it may actually build its self by any imagination or circumstance? That is how i see our creation, we are exponentially more complexed than any quad could ever be yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever else some people believe, I just don't buy it for even a second that all life wasn't intelligently designed.
    But who or what designed the maker behind this intelligently designed world?
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  15.    #1255  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    But who or what designed the maker behind this intelligently designed world?
    You could keep asking this question indefinitely. If you believe matter cannot be created nor destroyed, the only assumption is that some form of matter always existed. The only logical answer to the question of a creator is the the creator "always was". "Revealed truth" gives exactly this answer. Science and logic do not refute this.

    Why do I feel like you already asked this question once before? If so, what conclusions (if any) do you think we should draw?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #1256  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    But who or what designed the maker behind this intelligently designed world?
    You could keep asking this question indefinitely. If you believe matter cannot be created nor destroyed, the only assumption is that some form of matter always existed. The only logical answer to the question of a creator is the the creator "always was". "Revealed truth" gives exactly this answer. Science and logic do not refute this.

    Why do I feel like you already asked this question once before? If so, what conclusions (if any) do you think we should draw?

    I agree.. wether we are asking what created God or what created the very first molecule, at this point of our finite knowledge we can not FULLY comprehend the fact of "Always was". What is always? That means no start... What do we know of or can relate to in our lives (other than God or the Universe) of something that never started?
    as far as I know these are the 2 things (science based and religion based)that are "infinite" but at the same time the 2 least understood things the we can conceive? It truly is mind bending to think of! It actually hurts to truly try to wrap your mind around that!
    If you are Atheist or Agnostic we have to think that question to ourselves on what started us and what started that and so on? An unanswered question so an atheist beliefs really are not any farther fetched then the existence of a God.
    But vice versa could be applied to the religious folk, since this is truly unconceivable (we just have to accept it) can anything start something that is unstartable?
    Im done for the night when I start to confuse myself...
  17. #1257  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I find it equally hard to believe there is intelligence behind our "design". There is water and subsequently bacteria on Mars -- where is the intelligence in that? Planetary bodies and stars are formed and destroyed regularly throughout our galaxy and in other galaxies across the universe, where is the intelligence in that? The genetic sequence of the human male is closer to the genetic sequence of a male chimpanzee than a female human, does this suggest intelligence? Seems random to me.

    You said "yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever". That's ironic, the scientific community says that life evolved on Earth slowly over billions of years, religion says the universe was created in 6 days. Which of these ideas do you consider "lightening or whatever"?
    there are millions and millions of years between verse1:1 in genesis and verse 1:2 is what alot of scholars believe in the christian church! i dont have any reason to doubt it at all . if you actually studied up on it alot of creationists believe that the earth is quite old in fact lol
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  18. #1258  
    if you want to find out if God is real i can tell you how to find out lol. all you have to do is ask Him to prove it to you and tell Him OUT LOUD that you will serve Him for the rest of your life if He is real . but you have to mean it for real lol . and He will show you how real He is for sure !!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  19. #1259  
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinn35
    My major problem when it comes to the non belief of a creator is this, if you look at the elements they are all that we are made of correct? So say you had a box full of parts to make a quad (4 wheeler) or something like that. Would ever in a million billion years would you believe that it may actually build its self by any imagination or circumstance? That is how i see our creation, we are exponentially more complexed than any quad could ever be yet some how we just came into existence from some lightening or whatever else some people believe, I just don't buy it for even a second that all life wasn't intelligently designed.
    It's all math. The universe is so large we can't even fathom it, and when you take that into account, plus the billion years of time, anything can happen especially when dealing with the volatile substances in our universe.
    Palm Vx -> Treo 600 -> Treo 700p -> Centro -> Pre (Launch Phone 06/06/09) -> AT&T Pre Plus with Sprint EVDO swap -> Samsung Epic 4G w/ Froyo
  20. #1260  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Are you saying that elements and compounds capable of supporting life should only be where humans exist? What about Carbon, should we limit that to our planet too? Why do you think it would be more intelligent/efficient to limit oxidized hydrogen to where we live? I'd think that would be "more work for a creator" (and in that sense, less intelligent/efficient).
    Of course that is not what I'm saying. The existence of elements of life on an otherwise lifeless planet supports the random chaos theory versus intelligent design. Why would an all powerful and all knowing creator put bacteria on Mars? For what purpose?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    • Who here said anything like us coming into existence from lightning or whatever?
    • Not all religions say the universe (or even the earth) was created in 6 days. Who among us is saying the Earth was created in 6 days? The Bible does not say that if you "read it properly" either.
    I haven't read it properly. The 6 days of labor and 7th day of rest is a well-known "bible story".

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