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  1.    #1181  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I have to say I don't like the sound of this either. Are we all going to be walking around grinning like a village ***** with no free thought either?
    Good feedback and you raise an important question: that of whether or not we will have free will in Heaven. I don't know what's been revealed about this. If we are "made in the image of God", then I wonder whether God has any free will or not? (I agree that the thought of us being automatons in perpetuity in Heaven does not sound very appealing. I'm pretty sure your understanding may be more complete than mine at the current moment regarding whether or not we will have free will.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1182  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I have to say I don't like the sound of this either. Are we all going to be walking around grinning like a village ***** with no free thought either? Sometime people are unhappy just because they want to be. Also, some people are not happy unless they are unhappy so, will there be the freedom to be unhappy in heaven? Finally, some people are not happy unless they are making other people unhappy, uh-oh, that may not be allowed in the land of bliss and honey (I don't like honey either, yuk). What is there to be jealous of in heaven as you may not even have free will.
    Again, I'll pass on this one. Eternal happiness sounds so great, who wouldn't want that? I think this is one of those if it sounds too good to be true...it is.
    You are applying a very earthly template to this--which is natural, given that we are earthly creatures. But you can perhaps conceive of a situation where these earthly things aren't relevant. It's always difficult trying to think about something that is outside of our perception, and quantifying it even more difficult.

    However, I'm not sure this concept is really all that difficult, as people easily seem able to understand utopian concepts on earth (As unrealistic as those might be). Just think of that, to a higher degree.

    KAM
  3.    #1183  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    As I pointed out in my last post, one of the things you must be in order to be God is omni-benevolent, all-good. ...
    @jverity, Do you know the source of this teaching (or when in your life you learned it). I suspect it's something that was given to you in a better education than the one that I had. I'm going to do a search to better understand the concept, but any pointers/references/hints that you may have should help me to "narrow in" on understanding this belief. - thx
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #1184  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Good feedback and you raise an important question: that of whether or not we will have free will in Heaven. I don't know what's been revealed about this. If we are "made in the image of God", then I wonder whether God has any free will or not? (I agree that the thought of us being automatons in perpetuity in Heaven does not sound very appealing. I'm pretty sure your understanding may be more complete than mine at the current moment regarding whether or not we will have free will.)
    If we are made in gods image here is a good quote:
    Can omniscient God, who Knows the future, find The omnipotence to Change His future mind? (by Karen Ownens)
    Maybe in heaven you will know and see all just like god(s). I don't know for sure if this is free will or not. However, if we are all made in his image then I would guess no? If the future is already established then it is not free as it is already known.

    This for the ones that will say that the bible does not use these specific words about god...look up the definition of the words and then read the following passages:

    On omniscient:
    Psalm 147:4,5
    He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
    I Samuel 23:5-14
    So David and his men went to Keilah, and fought with the Philistines, and brought away their cattle, and smote them with a great slaughter. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah. And it came to pass, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David to Keilah, that he came down with an ephod in his hand. And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars. And Saul called all the people together to war, to go down to Keilah, to besiege David and his men. And David knew that Saul secretly practised mischief against him; and he said to Abiathar the priest, Bring hither the ephod. Then said David, O Lord God of Israel, thy servant hath certainly heard that Saul seeketh to come to Keilah, to destroy the city for my sake. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? will Saul come down, as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Then David and his men, which were about six hundred, arose and departed out of Keilah, and went whithersoever they could go. And it was told Saul that David was escaped from Keilah; and he forbare to go forth. And David abode in the wilderness in strong holds, and remained in a mountain in the wilderness of Ziph. And Saul sought him every day, but God delivered him not into his hand.
    Isaiah 46:10
    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

    Basically, he knows everything past and future.

    On omnipotence (this one is easier):
    Matthew 19:26
    But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
    Luke 1:37
    For with God nothing shall be impossible.
    Revelation 19:6
    And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    Basically, god can make anything happen.
  5. #1185  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    @jverity, Do you know the source of this teaching (or when in your life you learned it). I suspect it's something that was given to you in a better education than the one that I had. I'm going to do a search to better understand the concept, but any pointers/references/hints that you may have should help me to "narrow in" on understanding this belief. - thx
    Philosophy 101.

    For a being to be God (not a god, which has varying definitions that boil down pretty much to just being super-powerful) they need to be Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (everywhere at once), Omni-benevolent (perfectly good), Omnipotent (all powerful), and there's another Omni that I can't remember that means eternal, without begining or end. This is not the same as being immortal, which just means you can't die. You could be born, have some crazy radioactive accident, and become immortal, but you would not be eternal.

    Those are the things that define God as I was taught them.

    As far as god, superman would be considered a god. An alien could come here today and say he is a god and probably be believed by half the planet. Clarke's third law states that any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, the corollary of which would be that any sufficiently advanced being would be indistinguishable from a god. Hence, the philosophical definition of God to separate him from the other gods we may meet before him.
  6. #1186  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    You are applying a very earthly template to this--which is natural, given that we are earthly creatures. But you can perhaps conceive of a situation where these earthly things aren't relevant. It's always difficult trying to think about something that is outside of our perception, and quantifying it even more difficult.

    However, I'm not sure this concept is really all that difficult, as people easily seem able to understand utopian concepts on earth (As unrealistic as those might be). Just think of that, to a higher degree.

    KAM
    Earthly thoughts are what I believe,
    of course, Utopian concepts I can conceive,
    but, eternal bliss I cannot reprieve,
    and living beyond my death with glee,
    does leave your god reproach from me,
    for I feel this is the only chance for us to be.

    Best I could do on short notice.
  7. #1187  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Basically, god can make anything happen.
    I think you mean God, not god, but...

    Oh yeah? Can God make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?

    Or even better, since God's word is truth that shapes existence, can God say "I do not exist" or "There is no God"?
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1188  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Earthly thoughts are what I believe,
    of course, Utopian concepts I can conceive,
    but, eternal bliss I cannot reprieve,
    and living beyond my death with glee,
    does leave your god reproach from me,
    for I feel this is the only chance for us to be.

    Best I could do on short notice.
    Niiiice.

    KAM
  9. #1189  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I think you mean God, not god, but...

    Oh yeah? Can God make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?

    Or even better, since God's word is truth that shapes existence, can God say "I do not exist" or "There is no God"?
    You are correct on the spelling...

    As for the rest of your post -
    Mind=blown
  10.    #1190  
    I don't have time at the moment to learn what I need to about the various "onmi-*" characteristics of God that jverity has identified. I want to learn, and in time I suspect I will. (The good here is that I now have a better idea of what reading some of my posts must be like for the rest of you! )

    EDIT: Your explanation of differences between "God" and "god" are helping me too. (Sometimes I've wondered if God was a (the) "really smart" alien. I know that's a weird way of thinking, but I always want to understand all possibilities!)
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/04/2010 at 12:59 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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    #1191  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I think you mean God, not god, but...

    Oh yeah? Can God make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?

    Or even better, since God's word is truth that shapes existence, can God say "I do not exist" or "There is no God"?
    I take it those aren't serious questions?
  12. #1192  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I take it those aren't serious questions?
    Let's say they are serious for now. Please answer as this is a serious subject. Something many people are betting their eternal lives on.
  13.    #1193  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Oh yeah? Can God make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?
    Yes He can, but then He just asks "himself" for a hand, and together "they" can get the job done! (Don't forget that God is three persons in one being.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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    #1194  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    You can have inter-faith friendships... as long as religion is glossed over... as you can tell in this thread, anytime someone brings up a point that religious people do not like, they circle like the old bandwagons. It is very interesting...

    Religion is based on Faith, a couple of books, and some cool stories. Can't beat that... outside of the free concerts some put on for free on Sunday.
    I honestly don't see any bandwagons circling. I see several believers here who don't seem to mind talking about their differences and a couple of agnostics who don't seem to mind talking about their differences. And I see believers siding with agnostics and atheists against the positions of other believers they don't agree with. So, I don't really get your point.
  15. #1195  
    God cannot lie.
    Hebrews 6:18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

    When you think of God having no limitations, keep in mind that he is in complete control of his limitless abilities.

    Think of it as any of us having some special ability. Just because you have it, you don't always use it. How about x-ray vision? If you had that, would you choose to not use it in certain cases? And to what extent would you use it?
    To see thru a wall? If you had the ability to see thru everything, would you? How far thru the wall do you want/need to see? If you were to look all the way thru the wall, and then thru the next wall, thru the next building and all its walls, how far would you look. Infinite? No. All the way thru everything leaves nothing to see - you see thru everything and so see nothing.

    I know that's a little too sci-fi, but God has the ability to choose what to see, and what not to see. If he chose to see what Satan, Adam, and Eve were going to do..... Well, you get my point.
    Last edited by berdinkerdickle; 03/04/2010 at 01:19 PM. Reason: spelling
    Just call me Berd.
  16. #1196  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I honestly don't see any bandwagons circling. I see several believers here who don't seem to mind talking about their differences and a couple of agnostics who don't seem to mind talking about their differences. And I see believers siding with agnostics and atheists against the positions of other believers they don't agree with. So, I don't really get your point.
    Me neither. I think the attitude you bring to the conversation is more important than what you actually believe, as far as people getting along goes anyway.

    Religion and politics are just two of those things that some people feel so passionately about that they loose the ability to disagree civilly or discuss it in a rational way. But I think most of the people here don't fall in to that trap, so we would all get along in person.

    Usually the internet has the more extreme conversations, with people hidden behind the cloak of anonymity. If we can discuss this calmly here, what makes you think you can't do it in person? What makes you think people with different ideologies can't be friends?
  17. #1197  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I think you mean God, not god, but...

    Oh yeah? Can God make a rock that's too heavy for him to lift?

    Or even better, since God's word is truth that shapes existence, can God say "I do not exist" or "There is no God"?
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I take it those aren't serious questions?
    I've always liked that point. Seriously.
    Can he make a rock so big, that even he can't lift it?
    If he can't lift it.....
    Or, if he can't make it......
    Just call me Berd.
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    #1198  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Let's say they are serious for now. Please answer as this is a serious subject. Something many people are betting their eternal lives on.
    First, the question is framed in inconsistent logical categories. Its asking is it possible for God to be omnipotent and non-omnipotent. Saying God can't be non-omnipotent doesn't detract from God's omnipotence. In fact, the inverse would be true. As C.S. Lewis said, it makes as much sense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?"

    Augustine faced this question 1600 years ago. In The City of God, he says:

    For we do not put the life of God or the foreknowledge of God under necessity if we should say that it is necessary that God should live forever, and foreknow all things; as neither is His power diminished when we say that He cannot die or fall into error,—for this is in such a way impossible to Him, that if it were possible for Him, He would be of less power. But assuredly He is rightly called omnipotent, though He can neither die nor fall into error. For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent.
  19. #1199  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    First, the question is framed in inconsistent logical categories. Its asking is it possible for God to be omnipotent and non-omnipotent. Saying God can't be non-omnipotent doesn't detract from God's omnipotence. In fact, the inverse would be true. As C.S. Lewis said, it makes as much sense as asking "Can God draw a square circle?"

    Augustine faced this question 1600 years ago. In The City of God, he says:
    Interesting concept
  20. #1200  
    This is for dbd, and any who might find it interesting.
    (Warning - Great Wall of Text)

    Some of you might remember this slogan: “We Will Sell No Wine Before Its Time”

    God has a timetable. He knows when and how to act to do the most good.

    Let's look back at what I posted earlier:

    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    If you look at Genesis 3:1-6:

    Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

    I drama unfolds.
    We agree that Satan used the serpent.
    First, Satan says God is lying to the couple, that they won't die.
    Second, They will be able to decide for themselves what is considered good or evil.
    This isn't that they were originally intended to be robots - they had freewill.
    Eve could of said that my father is more experienced than I, and he knows what's best for me - he knows what will harm or benefit me. I have a choice to serve him out of trust and love, and as the years go by, I will see the good fruitage of making that choice. Or I can shrug his authority and make those decisions for myself.

    She chose to ignore God's authority, thinking the tree was going to give her the wisdom to make wise choices as to what is good or bad.

    Adam cast his lot in with her.

    Today we see a long history of man ignoring God's counsel, and reaping the pain and suffering as a result.
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Now we come to some questions;

    Why didn't God just bump these rebels off and start anew?
    Why doesn't God step in and fix this mess were in?

    Read thru the passage above again.
    Do we see a bigger question than just what's in our best interest?
    Do we see a universal question?

    Who knows best?
    Would that question be answered if God just did away with these three opposers?
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Since this original rebellion, the question has most definitely been raised.
    Angels in heaven were looking on. Millions of Angels have since chose sides with Satan.

    What would be considered a reasonable amount of time for man to realize that they can't go it alone?

    The Angelic Rebels are no longer in heaven - God's will is done in heaven. Jesus promises it will be done on earth.

    How close do you think we are to answering that universal question for all eternity?
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    As to why God did what he did then (Noah's day), and only what he did then, most likely had to do with timing, and the situation. Angels had came down from heaven, materialized, and impregnated earthly women. They gave birth to these 'High-Breeds' and the earth became filled with violence.

    The answer as to the goodness of God's ruling was still in question.
    Also God's 'Sacred Secret' wrapped up in the Christ (Messiah) still was unfulfilled. God knows just when to act, and how to act that will bring the greatest good.

    Keep in mind. God has a means for undoing all the pain. Jesus gave a taste of it while he walked the earth. The question will be answered universally and eternally.

    Pain and Suffering that we have brought upon ourselves can be put in light of this:
    2 Corinthians 4:17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Noah was a good person, and only allowing the good from this point forward wasn't yet possible in God's time frame.
    Jesus had not yet came and 'bought back' what Adam lost.
    Noah was still imperfect, and his sons were still subject to our imperfect tendency to shrug God's authority. We still demonstrate that to our day.
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Speculate for a moment.
    What made Satan decide to rebel against God?
    Did Satan have a legit reason to refuse God's way of doing things?

    Maybe God doesn't have to answer - He's God, does he really need to answer to anyone? Maybe he could of just bumped off all the Rebels. How would this prevent another from developing these same concerns.
    Remember; Angels have Freewill also. They can choose to serve God or go their own way, as did Satan.

    God is allowing enough time to answer all questions to his authority.
    Is it to make a point? No. Because honestly, most of us are too stubborn headed to get the point anyway.

    I asked the question earlier; 'do we think we can make this work on our own?' Some think we still can. God says we can't.
    God, as any loving parent, is giving us the chance to try it on our own.
    He wants us to come home.

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    Looking at these questions again:
    1. Why didn't God just bump these rebels off and start anew?

    Would that have answered the accusation that Satan made? - that God was lying, that they wouldn't die and in fact they would be 'enlighten' with the wisdom of what is considered good or bad. No, the question would of remained.
    (Side point; the name “Satan” means “Resister” and the name “Devil” means “Slanderer” Satan caused Adam and Eve to join him in his resistance to God's Authority. And he Slandered God by in effect, calling him a Liar.)

    We, with our inherited tendency to challenge authority, continue to debate as to if God's way of doing things is best or not. God isn't allowing time so much 'to make a point' but rather for us to see for ourselves, that we need God. God wants us to serve him because we see it as the best choice, not because he will bump us off if we don't.

    2. When God cleansed the earth of the wicked in Noah's Day, why wasn't that good enough?

    I've already posted much on this already. But to make sure the point wasn't missed. Noah was still tainted with inherited sin. Christ had not yet come to pay the ransom.
    Also, what happened in Noah's day was the result of Angels coming down from Heaven to have relations with woman. Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6; 2Peter 2:4,5.
    The Earth became polluted by wicked Angels. This didn't leave the question to answer itself.
    If two opponents were fighting, and people were betting on an outcome. And then a third party steps in. It would disrupt the natural outcome. The third party would be taken out of the ring and the two would be sent to their corners. Once order was reestablish, the challenge would proceed.

    God cleansed the earth, gave man another fresh start and another opportunity to try it on his own again.
    The wicked angels lost their heavenly positions, and God repeated the direction to Noah and his family that he originally gave Adam and Eve.

    Genesis 1:22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
    Genesis 9:1 Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.


    3.Why doesn't God step in and fix this mess were in?
    I'll get to this later.

    Thanks for enduring my great wall of text.
    Just call me Berd.

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