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  1. Dic Doc's Avatar
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    #1161  
    I just checked back in on this thread after two weeks from my last post... wow, lot of good posts.

    This thread has been very Christian-centric (as one would expect in the USA). The fun part of discussion with religious apologists (that is a theologic term, not a slander) is that there are so many levels on which to debate. I recently saw a group of women who are trying to promote cross-faith and cross-cultural relations. It was a Jewish woman, a Muslim woman, and a Christian woman. They discussed how they respected each other and appreciated each other and were friends.

    But when all is said and done, and if each truly follows her religion, each thinks the other two are going to hell when they die.

    Therefore, can you ever really have an inter-faith friendship based on equality and total respect?

    And don't give me the line, "I think that if you are a good person, then you will end up in heaven." I think many moderate Christians think this, because they use their ability to reason based on flawed information that no God would really punish a truly "nice" person, but no organized religion believes you will end up in heaven unless you follow its particular mandates. Let's discuss why there are different religions, and which god is truly the correct god. Whether there is a god or not is really a separate issue. Tell me which one is correct first.
  2. #1162  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dic Doc View Post
    Therefore, can you ever really have an inter-faith friendship based on equality and total respect?

    And don't give me the line, "I think that if you are a good person, then you will end up in heaven." I think many moderate Christians think this, because they use their ability to reason based on flawed information that no God would really punish a truly "nice" person, but no organized religion believes you will end up in heaven unless you follow its particular mandates. Let's discuss why there are different religions, and which god is truly the correct god. Whether there is a god or not is really a separate issue. Tell me which one is correct first.
    You can have inter-faith friendships... as long as religion is glossed over... as you can tell in this thread, anytime someone brings up a point that religious people do not like, they circle like the old bandwagons. It is very interesting...

    Religion is based on Faith, a couple of books, and some cool stories. Can't beat that... outside of the free concerts some put on for free on Sunday.
    01000010 01100001 01101110 00100000 01010100 01101000 01110010 01100101 01100001 01100100 00100000 01000011 01110010 01100001 01110000 01110000 01100101 01110010 01110011 00100001
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1163  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dic Doc View Post
    I just checked back in on this thread after two weeks from my last post... wow, lot of good posts.

    This thread has been very Christian-centric (as one would expect in the USA). The fun part of discussion with religious apologists (that is a theologic term, not a slander) is that there are so many levels on which to debate. I recently saw a group of women who are trying to promote cross-faith and cross-cultural relations. It was a Jewish woman, a Muslim woman, and a Christian woman. They discussed how they respected each other and appreciated each other and were friends.

    But when all is said and done, and if each truly follows her religion, each thinks the other two are going to hell when they die.

    Therefore, can you ever really have an inter-faith friendship based on equality and total respect?

    And don't give me the line, "I think that if you are a good person, then you will end up in heaven." I think many moderate Christians think this, because they use their ability to reason based on flawed information that no God would really punish a truly "nice" person, but no organized religion believes you will end up in heaven unless you follow its particular mandates. Let's discuss why there are different religions, and which god is truly the correct god. Whether there is a god or not is really a separate issue. Tell me which one is correct first.
    What makes you think that you cannot be friendly or respect someone who thinks differently from you? You are using the example of different religions to arrive at the assumed conclusion that someone of a different religion is condemned to hell. I'd counter by saying that someone you know that is in a state of sin (perhaps oneself) would also be headed to hell.

    Let me restate as to be clear. If two Catholics are friends, and one (or both) are in a state of sin, they would be on a path which does not allow them to get to heaven. Since that seemed to be your defining point (belief that the other person is not going to heaven), the same situation exists, and I'm quite sure that they would be capable of mutual respect.

    Another way of answering this is that, we are not called to hate sinners (which you could broadly define as someone not in a state of grace--which could include people of other religions), so why would we not be able to be friends and respect these people?

    Here's another example: If you are a Christian, and your brother is an atheist, do you love him less?

    KAM
  4. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1164  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    You can have inter-faith friendships... as long as religion is glossed over... as you can tell in this thread, anytime someone brings up a point that religious people do not like, they circle like the old bandwagons. It is very interesting...
    While many people may simply avoid getting into arguments over issues, I assure you that people of different religions interact with each other, and discuss these differences.

    Circle the bandwagons. Really? Could you point to where that has occurred here? Or are you simply referring to when people here take the time to explain what their religion actual teaches vs the misconceptions that people hold?

    KAM
  5. d.moss's Avatar
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    #1165  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dic Doc View Post
    I just checked back in on this thread after two weeks from my last post... wow, lot of good posts.

    This thread has been very Christian-centric (as one would expect in the USA). The fun part of discussion with religious apologists (that is a theologic term, not a slander) is that there are so many levels on which to debate. I recently saw a group of women who are trying to promote cross-faith and cross-cultural relations. It was a Jewish woman, a Muslim woman, and a Christian woman. They discussed how they respected each other and appreciated each other and were friends.

    But when all is said and done, and if each truly follows her religion, each thinks the other two are going to hell when they die.

    Therefore, can you ever really have an inter-faith friendship based on equality and total respect?

    And don't give me the line, "I think that if you are a good person, then you will end up in heaven." I think many moderate Christians think this, because they use their ability to reason based on flawed information that no God would really punish a truly "nice" person, but no organized religion believes you will end up in heaven unless you follow its particular mandates. Let's discuss why there are different religions, and which god is truly the correct god. Whether there is a god or not is really a separate issue. Tell me which one is correct first.
    where you went wrong with this is when you failed to realize that these three religions believe in the same end result. allah simply means god.. all three of these religions believe in god. the differences come in when you begin to speak of jesus and how we should live our lives.. man has twisted religion for use in politics.. so religion these days is overstood. we say god is merciful right? so why would one be condemned just because he eats pork? or because he's unsure who jesus was and what his role was.. god wants us to seek him and believe in him. he wants us to be ginuine and have a relationship with him.. the father of all.. and if we truly seek him and listen to him, he's gonna tell us what's right.. too many people try to interpret the literal meaning of a book without seeking a relationship with the one the book was inspired by.. the alpha and the omega.. creator of all things. god, the father.
  6. #1166  
    Jesus prayer rug: miracle or scam? | St. Louis News, Weather, Sports | KMOV.com | St. Louis Weather, News and More | Reporters Blog

    I worry about these old ladies and how much money is extracted from them with scams like this (27M in this one scam alone). It's a piece of paper! The eyes are not going to open! And if even if they did some how what is that going to do?

    She, like millions of others, let her faith in a God completely override her common sense.
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  7. #1167  
    Quote Originally Posted by Dic Doc View Post
    And don't give me the line, "I think that if you are a good person, then you will end up in heaven." I think many moderate Christians think this, because they use their ability to reason based on flawed information that no God would really punish a truly "nice" person, but no organized religion believes you will end up in heaven unless you follow its particular mandates. Let's discuss why there are different religions, and which god is truly the correct god. Whether there is a god or not is really a separate issue. Tell me which one is correct first.
    As I pointed out in my last post, one of the things you must be in order to be God is omni-benevolent, all-good. I do not believe anyone could reasonably argue that an all-good being could send a good person to hell over some sort of trivial rule violation.

    That being said, why do you have to assume any religion has it right? You can't even say reliably that you understand any other human being completely, even if you've spent your whole life with them. Do you really think that any religion has God nailed down completely?

    I don't think any of them are completely right. I think, as you put it, moderate Christians, are most right as far as having an understanding of God and what he expects of us. Other than that, your guess is as good as mine, but it's no better than mine either.
  8. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1168  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Jesus prayer rug: miracle or scam? | St. Louis News, Weather, Sports | KMOV.com | St. Louis Weather, News and More | Reporters Blog

    I worry about these old ladies and how much money is extracted from them with scams like this (27M in this one scam alone). It's a piece of paper! The eyes are not going to open! And if even if they did some how what is that going to do?

    She, like millions of others, let her faith in a God completely override her common sense.
    Of course, people let their common sense be over-ridden with all sorts of scams having nothing to do with Religion at all. How many people fall for the "You won the lottery" scams? They completely let their desire for money over-ride their common sense.

    KAM
  9. #1169  
    The Christian religion has alway's had the most blessings.The Christians have alway's had sight for things that could not be seen.(all the great minds of the history of man)When an apple hit let's say a different man on the head.(a man of different religion or faith)he simply threw the apple,muttered some bad words and stompped off.
    When an apple hit one of the greatest christians of all time.He was given guidance and asked what made that apple hit me on the head.And the first theory of gravity was discovered.(It was one of the greatest blessings man has ever been given)
    And there have been many since then.(electricity,medicine,penicillin,radio waves,heat theory,discovery of the atom,combustion,fuel,)
    How can someone discover the world is round when all they have is the piece of land they are standing on.And simply just looking.
    How could anyone come to realize it's so much bigger and better than what their eyes were telling them.
    And that goes for every major discovery man has been blessed with.The list goes on and on.Without the sight God has given man.We would still be hunter gatherers,dieing at the age of thirty,and clubbing your neighbor for looking at your woman the wrong way.
  10. #1170  
    Quote Originally Posted by bullsnort10 View Post
    The Christian religion has alway's had the most blessings.The Christians have alway's had sight for things that could not be seen.(all the great minds of the history of man)When an apple hit let's say a different man on the head.(a man of different religion or faith)he simply threw the apple,muttered some bad words and stompped off.
    Wha? Only a fundamentalist Christian could come up with stuff like this. Do you have any idea how this sounds? Do not travel outside of the USA.....you will be extremely unwelcome.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 03/04/2010 at 09:47 AM.
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  11. #1171  
    Sometimes I wish we had a thumbs down button too.
  12. #1172  
    Quote Originally Posted by bullsnort10 View Post
    The Christian religion has alway's had the most blessings.The Christians have alway's had sight for things that could not be seen.(all the great minds of the history of man)When an apple hit let's say a different man on the head.(a man of different religion or faith)he simply threw the apple,muttered some bad words and stompped off.
    When an apple hit one of the greatest christians of all time.He was given guidance and asked what made that apple hit me on the head.And the first theory of gravity was discovered.(It was one of the greatest blessings man has ever been given)
    And there have been many since then.(electricity,medicine,penicillin,radio waves,heat theory,discovery of the atom,combustion,fuel,)
    How can someone discover the world is round when all they have is the piece of land they are standing on.And simply just looking.
    How could anyone come to realize it's so much bigger and better than what their eyes were telling them.
    And that goes for every major discovery man has been blessed with.The list goes on and on.Without the sight God has given man.We would still be hunter gatherers,dieing at the age of thirty,and clubbing your neighbor for looking at your woman the wrong way.
    I really can't figure out if this is your actual viewpoint or if you are trolling.
  13. #1173  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I really can't figure out if this is your actual viewpoint or if you are trolling.
    Trolling I think, given the formatting and grammar. I will admit I was tricked for a moment. Despite my distaste for religious faith I'm easily willing to admit that 99% of the believers in the this thread have not mirrored the opinions of the troll.
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  14. #1174  
    I just checked back in on this thread after two weeks from my last post... wow, lot of good posts.

    This thread has been very Christian-centric (as one would expect in the USA). The fun part of discussion with religious apologists (that is a theologic term, not a slander) is that there are so many levels on which to debate. I recently saw a group of women who are trying to promote cross-faith and cross-cultural relations. It was a Jewish woman, a Muslim woman, and a Christian woman. They discussed how they respected each other and appreciated each other and were friends.

    But when all is said and done, and if each truly follows her religion, each thinks the other two are going to hell when they die.

    Therefore, can you ever really have an inter-faith friendship based on equality and total respect?

    And don't give me the line, "I think that if you are a good person, then you will end up in heaven." I think many moderate Christians think this, because they use their ability to reason based on flawed information that no God would really punish a truly "nice" person, but no organized religion believes you will end up in heaven unless you follow its particular mandates. Let's discuss why there are different religions, and which god is truly the correct god. Whether there is a god or not is really a separate issue. Tell me which one is correct first.

    ****************************************************************

    My response was to this reply above.I'm just giving my theory on wich religion is correct first.This is my argument for the Christian faith being correct.No disrespect to anyone's beliefs.Believe how you want.But if your religion doesn't support science, medicine,technology,your going to have a hard life.it isn't suppose to be that way.Our lives are suppose to be blessed.Not damned.
  15.    #1175  
    I appreciate the recent comments/questions that people are beginning to ask now. It's time for me to "share" more of my thoughts on this. (Some of this is based on what I've been taught as a little boy, as well as recent thinking that I've done. I'm note sure how much "scripture" there is to back up my thinking, but I'll share it (with these caveats).

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I find it impossible to believe that you can live a good life and be denied entry to heaven because of a few minor sins you didn't atone for in your last seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Sorry for the lack of input lately - been busy.
    I want to quickly add to the current few posts though.
    If a person who performed a lifetime of cold blooded murders and then gets some holy water splashed on him or asks god for forgiveness and he/she gets into heaven, and I, who have only (in my mind) logically rejected the fact that there is a god and not done harm (and actually spend time helping those in less fortunate positions both physically and financially) to people in general am denied this heaven...then i would choose purgatory or nothing. These are the last people I would want to spend eternity with, along with this crazy god.
    In Heaven, everyone will be as "happy as possible" (or as happy as you will be capable of). As a child, my 2nd grade Sunday school teacher used the analogy that "all of our jars will be completely full". The implication here was that maybe the "size" of the jar might differ. That analogy isn't complete as in Heaven, we will still be happy (and not jealous) of what others might have. "Competitiveness" will be a thing of the past (as we will all be ordered toward pleasing either God, or God and all of ourselves as a group).

    I hinted earlier in this thread that our earthly lives might be considered a "period of development" (similar to our gestational development before our births into our earthly lives). On Earth, we are born into this live with different capabilities (our IQ , our DNA, male or female, and etc.). During our earthly development we learn how to use these gifts and we learn how to interact and care for others. In Heaven, if this social/community, "caring for others" idea remains, it will be "perfectly ordered" so that we will all be happy (just as a mother and a r e t a r d e d child are happy together on Earth). This is how my thinking has developed so far. The one part of scripture that comes to mind when thinking about this is the "8 beatitudes". I'm hoping that some of the more "biblically literate" members here might have more insights to add.

    Regarding baptism itself. Let me start by saying many 's also feel a bit like donovan34 does in that getting "some holy water splashed on" them shouldn't be enough to forgive a murder, etc. Most non-Catholics don't even believe that baptism itself is what causes entrance into God's community. Instead they say you need to "believe and trust/obey" in the saving action of Jesus Christ. I don't dispute their understanding of Christian beliefs. I see this as an instance of having "different size jars" - in other words, different levels of understanding toward the same God. In other words, God (through the people on earth) gives different people different levels of understanding of Him. God really is only looking for two thing from us in our earthly lives: that we "open our jar" (to his grace) and that we "don't break the jar". "Opening the jar" is our baptism or our acceptance of Jesus as our personal Savior. Breaking the jar is what Catholics call "mortal sin". You can confess your sins and have the jar glued back together. Some of the "liquid" from the jar can be put back in, but probably not all of it. We can accept graces from the Holy Spirit (from God) that help to fill up the jar again. Catholics believe in the concept of "Purgatory" which in effect, is time when "people's jars" are perfected. The liquid in the jar is distilled to remove any impurities and we learn to be perfectly happy with whatever is left. You can think of Purgatory as "the final weeks" of our "earthly gestational development" or perhaps as the "birthing process into Heaven". Just like our mother suffers in our earthly birth, we're likely to suffer a bit as we make our final preparations for entry into Heaven.

    OK, so by now, some of you are thinking "I'm nuts". I won't guarantee that my understanding is correct but I wanted to share it. The one point I didn't fully cover here was the case of "unpunished murder" after baptism. I want to restrain my thoughts on that for a bit to see first what others think about why that's the case.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #1176  
    Quote Originally Posted by bullsnort10 View Post
    The Christian religion has alway's had the most blessings.The Christians have alway's had sight for things that could not be seen.(all the great minds of the history of man)When an apple hit let's say a different man on the head.(a man of different religion or faith)he simply threw the apple,muttered some bad words and stompped off.
    When an apple hit one of the greatest christians of all time.He was given guidance and asked what made that apple hit me on the head.And the first theory of gravity was discovered.(It was one of the greatest blessings man has ever been given)
    And there have been many since then.(electricity,medicine,penicillin,radio waves,heat theory,discovery of the atom,combustion,fuel,)
    How can someone discover the world is round when all they have is the piece of land they are standing on.And simply just looking.
    How could anyone come to realize it's so much bigger and better than what their eyes were telling them.
    And that goes for every major discovery man has been blessed with.The list goes on and on.Without the sight God has given man.We would still be hunter gatherers,dieing at the age of thirty,and clubbing your neighbor for looking at your woman the wrong way.
    Moderator:if you think this is not proper,i can reword it.
  17. #1177  
    Quote Originally Posted by bullsnort10 View Post
    Moderator:if you think this is not proper,i can reword it.
    I don't think it's improper if you actually believe it, but it's provably false as some of the "discoveries" you listed were made by people who were not Christian. For example, the Greeks knew the earth was round and they were Poly-theists.
  18. #1178  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Regarding baptism itself. Let me start by saying many 's also feel a bit like donovan34 does in that getting "some holy water splashed on" them shouldn't be enough to forgive a murder, etc.
    I believe it has more to do with the intent than the act. If you are of sound mind and commit a murder, and you are never sorry for it, I don't believe any amount of rituals performed by the pope himself will get you in to heaven. God knows you are not sorry no matter what actions you go through after the fact.

    Conversely, I believe that God will forgive absolutely any sin, murder or otherwise, that you are truly sorry for, regardless of whether or not you preformed the appropriate ritual afterwards.

    So I guess what I'm saying is that I believe all the water splashing is just for show, that God knows where you belong and will put you there when you die.
  19. #1179  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    In Heaven, everyone will be as "happy as possible" (or as happy as you will be capable of). As a child, my 2nd grade Sunday school teacher used the analogy that "all of our jars will be completely full". The implication here was that maybe the "size" of the jar might differ. That analogy isn't complete as in Heaven, we will still be happy (and not jealous) of what others might have. "Competitiveness" will be a thing of the past (as we will all be ordered toward pleasing either God, or God and all of ourselves as a group).
    I have to say I don't like the sound of this either. Are we all going to be walking around grinning like a village ***** with no free thought either? Sometime people are unhappy just because they want to be. Also, some people are not happy unless they are unhappy so, will there be the freedom to be unhappy in heaven? Finally, some people are not happy unless they are making other people unhappy, uh-oh, that may not be allowed in the land of bliss and honey (I don't like honey either, yuk). What is there to be jealous of in heaven as you may not even have free will.
    Again, I'll pass on this one. Eternal happiness sounds so great, who wouldn't want that? I think this is one of those if it sounds too good to be true...it is.
  20.    #1180  
    Quote Originally Posted by bullsnort10 View Post
    Moderator:if you think this is not proper,i can reword it.
    I think your post is fine (agreeing with jverity's comment). I might hold off on my comments for a bit, but I think your post raises some interesting questions/issues that should be discussed here.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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