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  1. #1141  
    I've really enjoyed this thread.

    I know I can get excited or short with people sometimes, and I apologize again. Hey! I'm a Taz.

    I've put something rather lengthy together to attempt to answer dbd's question. I was hoping you (sudoer) were cool with me doing that.
    Just call me Berd.
  2.    #1142  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I've really enjoyed this thread.

    I know I can get excited or short with people sometimes, and I apologize again. Hey! I'm a Taz.

    I've put something rather lengthy together to attempt to answer dbd's question. I was hoping you (sudoer) were cool with me doing that.
    Sure, that's fine. In fact if people want to continue the discussion I support that too. I know it's been both educational and tiring for me - so I was really just pointing out that I was "satisfied" with the discussion. ˙ɹǝʍsuɐ uɐ sǝʌɹǝsǝp dbd 'sǝʎ puɐ
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #1143  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    There is a subtle point to understand here. There is a difference between saying "I do not believe that God Exists" and saying "God Does not Exist."
    Excellent point. First assertion is agnosticism or possibly confusion, the second assertion is atheism.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Note: Joshaccount--none of that is meant to be directed at you. I merely find those quotes you listed as being examples of the hollowness that exists on the anti-religious side of things. I respect people that have positions different from my own, that are held in sincerity, but I've little respect for petty mockery wearing the cloak of "logic" or "reasoning." Mockery might be fun, or funny, but it isn't reasoning.

    KAM
    I know you were not speaking directly to me, and the quotes I posted are not directed to anyone in particular. They represent humorous excerpts of a much larger stockpile available online. They carry no weight, although I do find them entertaining.

    Now, admit you liked the last one...
  4. #1144  
    Quote Originally Posted by notaphonegeek View Post
    George Carlin on Religion

    Geo is a kick

    "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an *****, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
    Just call me Berd.
  5.    #1145  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Now, admit you liked the last one...
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1146  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Oh no, I'm not talking about the Catholic Church, I'm talking about the creationists, the young earth people in particular with their 6000 year old earth and "Jesus Dinosaurs".

    It is the only organized religion belief I find even less plausible than what the Scientologists believe. We have scientifically proven that the young earth people are wrong, and even though I find Scientology ridiculous for all kinds of reasons, I can't say I've ever heard of actual proof that it can't be true, it's just not what I believe.

    Though I really have to point out even though this is off topic, I don't understand how the people that follow it don't see that the whole thing is set up like a pyramid scheme, sounds like a bad science fiction story, and was started by a science fiction writer who was famously quoted as saying "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion."
    I see, clarification understood. I was confused by the term "creationists" I guess, because technically, all Christians are one form of Creationist, although perhaps not literalists.

    KAM
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1147  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Excellent point. First assertion is agnosticism or possibly confusion, the second assertion is atheism.
    Quite correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I know you were not speaking directly to me, and the quotes I posted are not directed to anyone in particular. They represent humorous excerpts of a much larger stockpile available online. They carry no weight, although I do find them entertaining.

    Now, admit you liked the last one...
    The Einstein one? Indeed I did.

    KAM
  8. #1148  
    without God there is no logic !!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
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  9. xtn
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    #1149  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    put someone that says God does not exist in a plane and cut the fuel line and disable the controls or do the same in a car .... then have a camera right there and its proven that when people are put in a life or death situation they cry out to God wether or not they claim there is a God. lol now thats funny!
    A lot of people in life or death situations cry out to ****.
  10.    #1150  
    Quote Originally Posted by xtn View Post
    A lot of people in life or death situations cry out to ****.
    I didn't get what you meant at first, but once I realized you were using the "nice" word for what people would really say, it became immediately obvious! I'm afraid I'd likely be remembered as saying this same word (if I were to face this situation anytime soon). I better start changing my ways!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #1151  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    put someone that says God does not exist in a plane and cut the fuel line and disable the controls or do the same in a car .... then have a camera right there and its proven that when people are put in a life or death situation they cry out to God wether or not they claim there is a God. lol now thats funny!
    Put someone in an ambulance following a heart attack and tell them to choose between prayer or a cardiologist, have a camera ready, and you might be surprised how many people choose the science of medicine over the divine intervention of an all-powerful being.
  12.    #1152  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Put someone in an ambulance following a heart attack and tell them to choose between prayer or a cardiologist, have a camera ready, and you might be surprised how many people choose the science of medicine over the divine intervention of an all-powerful being.
    If they're in an ambulance, they're already on their way to see the Cardiologist. If this person is me, I'd want a Priest (in persona Christi) to administer the sacrament of "Anointing of the Sick". Then the Lord can do with me as He wills (either here on Earth or elsewhere)!

    EDIT: Those unbaptized could ask for the EMT to baptize them "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (pouring water over them with each name). If you pass away, you go to Heaven as a 100% spotless newly regenerated child of God! (If this happens to you, please remember to pray that I may join you in the same place!)
    Last edited by sudoer; 03/02/2010 at 07:40 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #1153  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    If they're in an ambulance, they're already on their way to see the Cardiologist. If this person is me, I'd want a Priest (in persona Christi) to administer the sacrament of "Anointing of the Sick". Then the Lord can do with me as He wills (either here on Earth or elsewhere)!

    EDIT: Those unbaptized could ask for the EMT to baptize them "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (pouring water over them with each name). If you pass away, you go to Heaven as a 100% spotless newly regenerated child of God! (If this happens to you, please remember to pray that I may join you in the same place!)
    I think you missed the point. It's a hypothetical situation solely for the sake of discussion and directed at Shadavis08 (although I welcome your response). **You've suffered a heart attack and will die in short order without intervention. To save your life your options are the healing power of prayer or immediate medical attention by a cardiologist. You pick.** The Shadavis08 hypothetical involved an imminent plane crash, in which most people, regardless of religious belief, would or would not begin to pray. I think a more appropriate question would be to ask if passengers entrust an omniscient higher power with the safety of the plane OR (not AND) the trained mechanics, engineers, and pilots?

    On a side note, you wrote "Those unbaptized could ask for the EMT to baptize them "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (pouring water over them with each name). If you pass away, you go to Heaven as a 100% spotless newly regenerated child of God!". Do you actually believe this to be true or were you just kidding?
  14.    #1154  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I think you missed the point.
    I didn't miss the point (but you missed the one that I was making).

    If I'm in danger of death, and it's unknown if I have confessed my sins or I'm unable to do so, the Bible says that a Priest can administer an anointing with oil as demonstrated in James 5:14-15

    Quote Originally Posted by James 5:14-15
    14: Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
    15: and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
    This is known in the Catholic churches as a sacrament called "last rites", "extreme unction", or Anointing of the Sick". I would want the Graces that God bestows from this sacrament if I was extremely sick or in danger of death. (A heart attack clearly qualifies).

    If you believe in God and life eternal, and you are in danger of death, this is more important than saving your earthly life (not to say that saving your earthly life, if possible, is not highly important). I'd want both a doctor and a priest ASAP.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    The Shadavis08 hypothetical involved an imminent plane crash, in which most people, regardless of religious belief, would or would not begin to pray. I think a more appropriate question would be to ask if passengers entrust an omniscient higher power with the safety of the plane OR (not AND) the trained mechanics, engineers, and pilots?
    I would trust God to provide either trained mechanics, engineers, and pilots; or divine intervention (according to His will). I would be praying for both myself and others on the plane, and then for comfort for our families.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    On a side note, you wrote "Those unbaptized could ask for the EMT to baptize them "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (pouring water over them with each name). If you pass away, you go to Heaven as a 100% spotless newly regenerated child of God!". Do you actually believe this to be true or were you just kidding?
    The Church teaches that Baptism can be performed by any individual (does not even have to be a Christian, could even be an atheist). As long as the individual intends to perform the baptism, invokes the names of the father, son, and holy spirit, and pours or immerses the recipient in water for each name, then the person is Baptized into the Church. It would not even matter that the baptizer specifically intend to baptize as a Catholic, just as a Christian. When any person is baptized, all sin that occurred in their lives (including the original sin from Adam and Eve) has been wiped clean. If they die the moment after this, they are immediately qualified enter the beatific vision of God. You can only be baptized once in your life, so this only would work for anyone that was not previously baptized. It's a special case that unbaptized people (including atheists) should be aware of.

    My point was saving your eternal soul should be of highest priority when in eminent danger of death. There is also "baptism of desire" where one reconsiders and repents to God but does not have an opportunity to formally receive a sacrament (which would be most of the time). This is where "Oh God" is preferable to "Oh [the other word]".-
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #1155  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Put someone in an ambulance following a heart attack and tell them to choose between prayer or a cardiologist, have a camera ready, and you might be surprised how many people choose the science of medicine over the divine intervention of an all-powerful being.
    This not an either/or choice--except in your hypothetical.

    KAM
  16. #1156  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I didn't miss the point (but you missed the one that I was making).

    If I'm in danger of death, and it's unknown if I have confessed my sins or I'm unable to do so, the Bible says that a Priest can administer an anointing with oil as demonstrated in James 5:14-15



    This is known in the Catholic churches as a sacrament called "last rites", "extreme unction", or Anointing of the Sick". I would want the Graces that God bestows from this sacrament if I was extremely sick or in danger of death. (A heart attack clearly qualifies).

    If you believe in God and life eternal, and you are in danger of death, this is more important than saving your earthly life (not to say that saving your earthly life, if possible, is not highly important). I'd want both a doctor and a priest ASAP.


    I would trust God to provide either trained mechanics, engineers, and pilots; or divine intervention (according to His will). I would be praying for both myself and others on the plane, and then for comfort for our families.


    The Church teaches that Baptism can be performed by any individual (does not even have to be a Christian, could even be an atheist). As long as the individual intends to perform the baptism, invokes the names of the father, son, and holy spirit, and pours or immerses the recipient in water for each name, then the person is Baptized into the Church. It would not even matter that the baptizer specifically intend to baptize as a Catholic, just as a Christian. When any person is baptized, all sin that occurred in their lives (including the original sin from Adam and Eve) has been wiped clean. If they die the moment after this, they are immediately qualified enter the beatific vision of God. You can only be baptized once in your life, so this only would work for anyone that was not previously baptized. It's a special case that unbaptized people (including atheists) should be aware of.

    My point was saving your eternal soul should be of highest priority when in eminent danger of death. There is also "baptism of desire" where one reconsiders and repents to God but does not have an opportunity to formally receive a sacrament (which would be most of the time). This is where "Oh God" is preferable to "Oh [the other word]".-
    I now fully understand your point...and it's stunning. From a metaphysical point of view, you might be my exact opposite, or as Seinfeld would say, "the bizarro Josh".
  17. #1157  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    This not an either/or choice--except in your hypothetical.

    KAM
    I know.
  18.    #1158  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I now fully understand your point...and it's stunning. From a metaphysical point of view, you might be my exact opposite, or as Seinfeld would say, "the bizarro Josh".
    I appreciate that we're all a little different than each other. Otherwise the world would be a very boring place!
  19. #1159  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    My point was saving your eternal soul should be of highest priority when in eminent danger of death. There is also "baptism of desire" where one reconsiders and repents to God but does not have an opportunity to formally receive a sacrament (which would be most of the time). This is where "Oh God" is preferable to "Oh [the other word]".-
    Well, I think that if you want to make sure your soul is going someplace good, you just have to make sure you are a good person before you die.

    I find it impossible to believe that you can live a good life and be denied entry to heaven because of a few minor sins you didn't atone for in your last seconds.

    At a minimum, it would mean that what was in charge was just a super powerful being, but not God, because to be God you have to be omni-benevolent, and an all-good being would not keep a good person out of paradise for something as ridiculous as that.

    But I could be wrong, maybe you do go to hell for it, I'm just saying that if you do, that wasn't God you were praying to, just some psychic multi-dimensional alien or something.

    You know, actually, I would even go one step further than that and say this:

    If God really will forgive you any sin,
    And God knows everything,
    Then God knows whether you are, or would be (given more time, we are talking about dying here) truly sorry for your sins and would be able to forgive, or not forgive, at any time,
    So wouldn't that be God's basis for letting you in to heaven or not, regardless of what rituals you did or did not perform before you die?
    Last edited by jverity; 03/03/2010 at 04:59 PM.
  20. #1160  
    Sorry for the lack of input lately - been busy.
    I want to quickly add to the current few posts though.
    If a person who performed a lifetime of cold blooded murders and then gets some holy water splashed on him or asks god for forgiveness and he/she gets into heaven, and I, who have only (in my mind) logically rejected the fact that there is a god and not done harm (and actually spend time helping those in less fortunate positions both physically and financially) to people in general am denied this heaven...then i would choose purgatory or nothing. These are the last people I would want to spend eternity with, along with this crazy god.

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