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  1. #1101  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    @jverity,
    Thanks for your last comments. They clarified what you were trying to say. You hadn't clarified between the what the Church teaches doctrinally and what the common customs of people in the church do/practice. I'm sure the Church would rather that Christmas not be as commercialized as it is. The tree is a nice thing. We always put an angel on the top of ours and many people top their trees with stars. The Church needs to work religious messages into the cultural practices of it's people. Christmas is more commercialized than Easter, and let's not even talk about Halloween! I agree that our understanding of the deposit of faith may need to change as science reveals more things to us. This is likely a major reason why the Church has not taken a hard stand on Evolution vs Creation yet. (We're currently free to believe what we want, and currently I have to fall heavily toward much of what we think we know in the theory of Evolution).
    I've never thought Halloween was part of the church at all. And though I know it is actually tied to some other religious rites, for me, even at Catholic school, it was always a harmless, get dressed up for fun and get free candy event, not a religious thing at all, and no more important (or harmful) than celebrating Arbor day, except to the extent that getting a bag full of free candy is important in any child's mind.

    And I kind of take the whole old testament the way you just described. The people and events, to me, are characters in a story meant to teach me the proper values. Some of them may be based on a true story, others are just a story, none of it is completely accurate, but a lot of it is closer than people think.

    For example, even though sometimes Creationists almost make me embarrassed to be Christian, as long as you don't take the story literally, it is pretty close. If you believe in the Big Bang Theory and Evolution, than the order of the things created and the relative time each took would be correct. I think this is because it is impossible to relate to a human mind the enormity of space and time required to truly understand the creation of the universe, so when the person who was inspired to write Genesis saw it, it went from being eons to about a week.

    I don't understand why some people take that way of thinking as a personal insult to their religious beliefs. It makes the most sense to me without discounting a single piece of doctrine. We get all the messages God wants, God still made everything, but within the laws of physics that he must have made up himself when he created it all (Why would he make these laws and then break them? We could just as easily have a universe where time and space work differently to allow the bible story to be the literal truth), and thinking about it that way instantly makes the bible more accessible and understandable.

    Jesus taught in parables, why would people find it so hard to believe that God inspired people to write parables of a different kind to explain the lessons he wanted to give us before Jesus came?
  2. #1102  
    I have pretty much just stood back today because the disagreement in the scripture by god fearing individuals (most of you posting today seem to believe in a god) is exactly, as i have stated previously, what leads me to be seriously question the validity. I just wish there was some advanced information in the scripture beyond what was known the day it was written. For instance if the good lord would have told someone to write 'the sun is a star' i know this is confusing but just write it, or the smallest piece of matter is an atom. How about Energy = mass X the speed of light squared - something like this. Man, we would all be believers!
    Do you guys know of anything like this in the bible?

    @sudoer - i saw your post from this weekend and I have not had time to look into it much today. I will delve into it and post back.
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    #1103  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I have pretty much just stood back today because the disagreement in the scripture by god fearing individuals (most of you posting today seem to believe in a god) is exactly, as i have stated previously, what leads me to be seriously question the validity.
    Do you apply the same skepticism to other ideas--such as evolutionary theory, causes of global climate patterns, limits and understanding of constitutional law, etc--about which there are disagreements? For example, does the fact that there are disagreements regarding the rate and exact mechanism of speciation lead you to disbelieve evolution?
  4. #1104  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Do you apply the same skepticism to other ideas--such as evolutionary theory, causes of global climate patterns, limits and understanding of constitutional law, etc--about which there are disagreements? For example, does the fact that there are disagreements regarding the rate and exact mechanism of speciation lead you to disbelieve evolution?
    I have posted as such in my previous comments.
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    #1105  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I have posted as such in my previous comments.
    I didn't realize you didn't believe in evolution. If that's the case then at least you're being consistent with your skepticism.
  6. #1106  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    I didn't realize you didn't believe in evolution. If that's the case then at least you're being consistent with your skepticism.
    I didn't say i don't believe in it...maybe reading back would help you understand me a little better. I would say it seems more plausible than creationism IMO. I feel that science cannot answer all of the questions but where we are missing answers I am not going to just make something up either. It just means exactly that, we are missing some answers.
  7. #1107  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I have pretty much just stood back today because the disagreement in the scripture by god fearing individuals (most of you posting today seem to believe in a god) is exactly, as i have stated previously, what leads me to be seriously question the validity. I just wish there was some advanced information in the scripture beyond what was known the day it was written. For instance if the good lord would have told someone to write 'the sun is a star' i know this is confusing but just write it, or the smallest piece of matter is an atom. How about Energy = mass X the speed of light squared - something like this. Man, we would all be believers!
    Do you guys know of anything like this in the bible?

    @sudoer - i saw your post from this weekend and I have not had time to look into it much today. I will delve into it and post back.
    how about if he told you to part the waters and they parted lol but you have no faith in him so you cant hear him so its a no go for you sorry. God is a faith God . He says believe what Jesus said and believe Jesus is His son and he will be with you and you will know He is real . if your just looking for proof you will never see it . there will always be doubt in your mind as to what your seeing and there will always seem to be some kind of explanation in your mind no matter how ludacrous it is to anyone else or even you .you will not ever be convinced until you give up and just have faith in Him and His Word!!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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    #1108  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I didn't say i don't believe in it...maybe reading back would help you understand me a little better. I would say it seems more plausible than creationism IMO. I feel that science cannot answer all of the questions but where we are missing answers I am not going to just make something up either. It just means exactly that, we are missing some answers.
    Well, then I'm inclined to think you aren't being consistent with your skepticism. Because you're willing to accept evolution (mostly, it seems) despite serious disagreements and unanswered questions. At the same time, you have serious doubts about the validity of the Christian religion because there are some disagreements.
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    #1109  
  10. #1110  
    Quote Originally Posted by RPFTW View Post
    typical lol you dont even know this kid never mind care about him and your gonna try and use him to denounce God lol thats funny!!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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    #1111  
    I did not take the time to read all the post, and i am sure many of you have good arguments for and against God. I for one was raised catholic, i see the flaws in it's rules because of the warping of man's ideas. I started researching other philosophies and some i agreed with other i did not.
    All i can say to those that are non believers in God or a greater being is 1 start reading your anatomy.
    2. start reading on astronomy and planetary movements.
    3. for those that have loved one such as children or parents, if no God exists then tell me where that love for those loved ones comes from?
    if your mother, sister dad brother, son or daughter die tell me where does it hurt?
    does it hurt your pinky, your "heart" your brain. no it hurts someplace unexplained. it it a pain and sorrow that has no "real" origination point.
    I am in school right now and we studied the nervous system and the special senses system, which was the ears and just reading about the ears and eyes and how they function was not made "by accident" or just came by existence. ( i have this theory that evolution was created by God).
    it all has reason and it is ALL mathematical. math is a form of intelligence. Math is science and math was created by God.
    so for me there is a God, and no one can convince me other wise.
    Now as a catholic I am to believe in man name Jesus, turns out if you read more, he really stems from the Egyptian religion same thing just a different name, so the part i deduced is the message not the messenger that is important and i did not get that till today.
  12. #1112  
    wow ! do you actually read the bible?? Jesus didnt come from an Egyptian religion ha ha ha
    Jesus is a J E W lol wow blocked out that word ??
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
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    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
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    #1113  
    Quote Originally Posted by lvav06 View Post
    Now as a catholic I am to believe in man name Jesus, turns out if you read more, he really stems from the Egyptian religion same thing just a different name, so the part i deduced is the message not the messenger that is important and i did not get that till today.
    I would invite you to read just a few pages back where the supposed similarities between Horus and Jesus were discussed and, in my opinion, shown to be lacking. I also addressed supposed similarities between Mithra and Jesus earlier in the thread. There are a lot of people pointing to the same lists of similarities on the internet but if you just spend a very short amount of time investigating them, most do not stand up.
  14. #1114  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    It's clear that you see my point, whether you really agree with it or see it as I do. My conclusion is that people such as yourself and myself really aren't all that different. We believe things we do not prove or directly observe--and most of the time we don't even try. The difference is in WHAT we believe, not that we do believe.

    KAM
    I do see one important distinction between us (otherwise yes, I've read many of your past posts, and I do see similarities between our [attempt at ] logic). I think what separates our beliefs is our operational definition of plausibility. We both accept Columbus and his voyage because there is a mountain of written and physical evidence and it seems plausible. You accept the Christian bible, possibly in its entirety, because there is a mountain of written and physical evidence and to you it seems plausible. Although I can accept some of the historic information in the bible (such as the existence of Jesus Christ as a man), it's the fantastic, mystical, magical portions that are not plausible (i.e. irrational) to me and therefore not acceptable. Is this an accurate summary of our "beliefs"?
  15. #1115  
    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  16. #1116  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I do see one important distinction between us (otherwise yes, I've read many of your past posts, and I do see similarities between our [attempt at ] logic). I think what separates our beliefs is our operational definition of plausibility. We both accept Columbus and his voyage because there is a mountain of written and physical evidence and it seems plausible. You accept the Christian bible, possibly in its entirety, because there is a mountain of written and physical evidence and to you it seems plausible. Although I can accept some of the historic information in the bible (such as the existence of Jesus Christ as a man), it's the fantastic, mystical, magical portions that are not plausible (i.e. irrational) to me and therefore not acceptable. Is this an accurate summary of our "beliefs"?
    no you just dont have any faith that God is who He says he is and there is nothing fantastic or mystical, or even magical well unless you refer to the magicians that are spoken of in the bible . you should first look up those words to better describe what your saying.
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  17. #1117  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    no you just dont have any faith that God is who He says he is and there is nothing fantastic or mystical, or even magical well unless you refer to the magicians that are spoken of in the bible . you should first look up those words to better describe what your saying.


    “I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours” -Stephen Roberts

    “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” -Steven Weinberg

    “Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.” -Richard Dawkins

    “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike” -Delos B. McKown

    “Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.” -Chapman Cohen

    “I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use, giving us by some other means the information that we could gain through them” -Galileo Galilei


    And my favorite...


    “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the the universe.” – Albert Einstein

  18.    #1118  
    Just a quick post to say I may be busy tomorrow (and that it's late tonight) so I'm not sure whether I might "bet a bit behind" in the discussion.

    @donovan34 (and anyone else),
    Please feel free to PM me if any part of the discussion bothers you (but not enough to bring in a real moderator). I'm probably a bit blinded about seeing if I'm going over the edge on scripture discussions. Your candid and private (or even public if you want) feedback is always welcome. I tend to be a lot stricter on someone's scripture beliefs if they say they are Catholic or have a Catholic education. (ie: with jverity. This might not be fair to them, but I guess this is my "full disclosure" about that tendency.)

    I also get the sense that it might not be practical for us all to respond to all of each others points in each counter post. I think general summary answers are probably OK and I might try to do more of those (as I think they'll better keep the discussion focused). If anyone wants to "parking lot" some issues, you can ask me and I'll edit the first post for any "parking lot" (or tabled topics).

    @RPFTW,
    Since some don't appreciate (or understand) your last post with the picture, I'd like to ask you to edit or delete the post. (Edit it if you want to rephrase/clarify your intended message. Once in edit mode, you can click a control and a radio button (or check box) to delete the post on your own. (I've done this with a few posts of my own that I thought better about after initially writing.) I'll leave this to your discretion (and I hope I'm not misunderstanding your intent).

    Thanks everyone for the continued good discussion! -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. #1119  
    Why should RPFTW remove the picture? Its a visual representation of how he feels on the subject. Sorry that it hurts some, just like watching this video does.

    Phones in Family pre> pre> pre> Centro> Rant
  20.    #1120  
    @jverity,
    I mentioned "Halloween" just because many groups mention this "holiday" in the same breaths while they are making accusations about other "pagan" holidays that influence the Church. It's not a holiday, but since it's "All Halo's eve" (the eve of the liturgical feast day of "All Saints"), some people make that connection and accuse the Church of pagan worship on Halloween.

    I'm not sure I can intelligently say which parts of the Bible are true "literally" vs being true "theologically", or "other forms of truth". I recall reading or listening to a talk or reading something describing the various forms of writings and how to better identify them. If I can find that talk (and/or summarize the points sometime soon once I find it), I think that will help our discussion here. There will be other Bible believing Christians who will interpret differently than I advocate (and it should be OK for their voices to still be heard).

    Regarding Creationists, let's make sure to maintain respect for their beliefs (which I think everyone has been doing here). To the extent that some may discount evolution theories, that's their prerogative. It just means they need to have a whole lot more "faith" than I do. I respect people who my God is able to give that strong a faith to. I also know that not everyone (including myself) is given the same measure of faith, so that's why I mentioned that it does not have to be a "creation vs evolution" debate in all religions.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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