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  1. #981  
    I think the biggest thing people need to think about is that if you believe in God, and believe that God created us, you shouldn't discard the most important thing he gave you in a misguided attempt to serve him.

    In other words, God gave you the ability to reason, use it. Taking something on faith is one thing. Blindly believing things that just don't make sense is another, and if I were God I would take it as an insult. "I gave those humans everything they need to understand the universe I made and half of them spend their time taking orders from an old guy in the dumbest hat I've ever seen."

    I believe that something out there started all this, gave it some guidance where required, and may let my consciousness stick around after my body is worn out if I seem like I might be worthwhile company for eternity. But don't tell me that anything smart enough and powerful enough to do all that, and willing to go through the trouble, would give us this ridiculous set of arbitrary rules for how to live, and not even communicate them to us himself.
  2. #982  
    christians don't follow rules they follow Jesus and morality follows them that love Jesus. The "law" is for the lawless in heart . Meaning those who would change it to suit their own needs . Which the world is doing rapidly these days .
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #983  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    What religion is this one? I am familiar with many but this one is really out there.
    Um, that would be Christianity.

    KAM
  4. #984  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Um, that would be Christianity.

    KAM
    Oh i get it - up in heaven he is alive. Thought he was saying still kicking it around here.
  5. #985  
    Jesus lives in each and every believer out there . Once you've asked him to forgive you of your sins and ask him into your heart lol.
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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  6. #986  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    Actually, I did ask where you had gotten that information (I think a few people did), so you're fine. To answer your question, no...I haven't read your suggestions, however, I wouldn't have a problem in doing so. Understanding different viewpoints is very important. That's why I decided to participate in this thread. I want to know why "non-believers" think and feel as they do.

    I think Neurotheology will answer youre question as to why some are believers and some not.
    read this article
    neurotheology article

    Some highlights:
    When people pray or meditate their brain cuts off bloodflow to certain parts of the brain and increases blood flow to parts of the frontal lobe. (i may have my parts mixed up) The areas that lose bloodflow are areas of the brain that control self awareness/space and time. Giving the feeling of being at one with the earth and God. You feel weightless and time doesnt effect and feels supernatural, and all do to chemical reactions in the brain.

    Interestingly people can have tiny almost unnoticable seizures in these areas which can be lead to believe to be divine intervention. Most people that experience these are extremely religious believing to have communicated with God, if surgically corrected the people feel that they have lost touch to God.

    there are soo many factors to this you should read the arcticle lots of interesting facts. If an agnostic or atheist has never been in deep prayer/meditated or have had emotional correlations to religious emblems they may never believe in a God. However those that are religious and pray frequently get a feeling in their brain that those that have not, will never have the feeling that God is with them. (Very simplified by me)

    This does not say anthing if God exists but can simply explain why their will Always be differences in opinions!
    Do we believe in God because that feeling inour brain, or does God exist bc he put it there?
    A question that can never be answered...
    Last edited by gsonspre; 02/26/2010 at 04:05 PM.
  7. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #987  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Oh i get it - up in heaven he is alive. Thought he was saying still kicking it around here.
    Yes, the Christian belief is that Jesus ascended bodily into heaven some time after his Resurrection.

    KAM
  8. #988  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    you wouldn't have science if God didn't invent it . Lol
    The natural response: you wouldn't have God if people didn't invent Him.


    Santa (Jesus) lives in each and every believer out there . Once you've asked him to forgive you of your sins and ask him into your heart he brings you presents.[lol.]
    There is just as much evidence to support Santa as there is to support Jesus as savior. More, in fact - I actually could see the presents.
    Last edited by Bujin; 02/26/2010 at 02:32 PM.
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #989  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The natural response: you wouldn't have God if people didn't invent Him.
    And you wouldn't be here to invent Him, if not for Him.

    Haven't seen you in a while, Bujin. Good to see you back!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #990  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    And you wouldn't be here to invent Him, if not for Him.

    Haven't seen you in a while, Bujin. Good to see you back!
    I'm not, really - way to busy to visit here usually, just home sick today. Thanks though!

    (And, to your point, 2/3 of the world disagree with it )
    Everything's Amazing and Nobody's Happy

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    #991  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    (And, to your point, 2/3 of the world disagree with it )
    Ahh, point of clarification. I assume you thought I meant the Christian God. I didn't. I meant He/She/It/ThatThing that kicked all of this off to begin with.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12.    #992  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Keep in mind that I am a Catholic with 12 years of private Catholic school behind me, ...
    I assume by this you mean an education culminating in a High School diploma.
    This usually means a good memorization of Catholic teachings (often without understanding the reasons behind those teachings).

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    ... plus some religious studies and philosophy classes in college, and even I can't make sense of some of this.
    Can you tell me what tools your college courses you had (so we know what "tools you have on your belt")?

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    There's one God, but he's really three people
    This is called the "Trinity" (but you will never see that word in the Bible). Practically all Christians believe in this doctrine (which is supported by Biblical text on it's own). There have been numerous writings on this subject. You can trust the ones that bear the "Nihil obstat" and "Imprimatur" marks of the Church to be interpretations consistent with the original/intended meaning of the Church and it's Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    he sets up this sin system that requires his son, who is also 1/3 of him ...
    Your Catholic education has failed you. Simply think about the Nicene Creed and you will remember that the Son is not 1/3 of him, but all of him). Unless you can later prove yourself otherwise, you've just discounted any credentials you professed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I've never met President George Washington, or Christopher Columbus, yet their actions have had a provable and profound impact on my life, since I am an american. Things they did way back when affect the way I live every single day, without believing in anything you can't see. Yet if I said I was trying to follow the things they said and emulating their lives in an effort to develop a relationship with them, you would say I was nuts.
    To my knowledge, George Washington and Christopher Columbus did not make any claims that they were divine. If you follow their behavior, it would be because you saw good in some of the things they accomplished. That's reasonable. If you were not given any reasons from them for developing a relationship with them, then yes, I'd be interested in why you were doing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Why is it different with Jesus, who has had no provable impact on my life at all?
    I believe you when you say this. (It is very evident.) Were you baptized? Have you accepted Him as God (and more than 1/3)? If you were baptized, Do you agree with and live according to the teachings of the Catholic Church? (If not, then I'd venture that you have walked away from him. Do you expect your earthly friends to stay with you when you reject them? If we are made in the image of God, what makes you think he might be different?)

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Remember, you can't use anything I can't see or measure to prove he affected my life.
    If you were baptized, he has affected your life (by joining you to Christ's covenant with mankind). Once again, you can reject the covenant but he will not (unless that's what you want).

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    The thing is, I actually believe in God, ...
    I just want to make sure we're using the same definition of the word "believe". The greek word in the Bible for "believe" (pisteuo) means the following:
    pisteuo {pist-yoo'-o} from 4102; TDNT - 6:174,849; v 1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in 1a) of the thing believed 1a1) to credit, have confidence 1b) in a moral or religious reference 1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul 1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith 1bc) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith 2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity 2a) to be intrusted with a thing
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    ... but the bible is a ridiculous mess. For instance, find me a spot where the devil hurts someone. Outside of hell, where it's supposedly his job to punish people, and as such he is performing a service to God, the devil never causes harm to anyone.
    What you are saying sounds so obviously wrong to me that I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you want me to find examples that show otherwise (or better yet, can you site some examples of Satan's interactions with people that do not involve harm)?

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    You might say that by trying to take people from God he is hurting them, but that might actually be a good thing if you believe what you read in the bible.
    You are a bit confused, the devil is not taking anyone from God. God's people need to make a conscious choice to abandon Him. The devil is able to trick people (and to build up this trickery within society) into thinking that sin is right, good, and/or fun. (Please ask yourself if you think there is any credence to the "mental model" that the Church uses to describe Satan. Then tell me if you believe in just God or also in the devil.)

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    God hurts people left and right, whether you believe in him or not. He tortures his biggest believer in the old testament, Job, just to prove a point to the devil.
    Here are the sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explain the teachings behind Job. You and I can go through them if you want to. (I haven't yet, and won't unless you are interested.) My point here is that God's word is indexed back into where it's talked about in the Catechism. The Church has provided a means to understand the Bible (contrary to your initial claim):
    Job 1:5 1032*
    Job 1:6 441*
    Job 10:8-12 2270*
    Job 12:10 2318
    Job 33:23-24 336*
    Job 36:26 223
    Job 38:7 332*
    Job 42:2 275
    Job 42:3 299*
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    He lets Lot's wife turn in to a pillar of salt just because she took a look at the destruction of her home as she fled.
    Genesis 19 332*
    Genesis 19:1-29 2357*
    Genesis 19:13 1867*
    They were instructed by the angels that the city would be destroyed. The mere fact that they were running indicates they understood this message as well as God's favor. The angels rescued them from harm, but then gave them instructions (which they had the free choice to follow or not). Lot's wife was turned into salt (essentially declared "worthless") for not following the instruction for her part in the participating work of being saved by God. That pretty much sums up the same message as God's will that we partake in Jesus' suffering on the cross. I didn't have as strong of a Catholic education as you, but then didn't Thomas A. Edison say that Genius is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration? I suggest you start getting a little sweaty!

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Doesn't God make the rules? Couldn't he have created non-salt-inducing destruction to allow her to live? Or couldn't he have destroyed the city around them while they slept comfortably without even noticing, leaving them and their home unharmed?
    The fact that he made the rule that he did is part of the intended message. I think I explained why above. If you have a brain, I suggest you start using it. If not, I suggest you talk to a Priest who can help you get back on track.

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Of course he could, he's God, he can do anything, ...
    Once again, I ask you to read the story more critically, and to seek out books that properly explain the things you do not understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    and the reason the bible doesn't make sense is because it's not true and it was written by people. It is just a collection of stories meant to teach morals, like a children's book, or sometimes used by rulers to help control the population, and nothing more.
    Why should I believe your interpretation. So far you've not given me confidence that you've used any of the things you were taught in your analysis.

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    I believe in the values it teaches, ...
    How do you even know what values the Bible teaches? How do you know whether you are reading it correctly or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    but I think anyone who thinks it is all true is as stupid as somone who thinks the same of Green Eggs and Ham.
    Green Eggs and Ham never made any claim to be "truth" but the Bible does. So essentially you're telling me you're willing to believe some of what it teaches but that there are other parts you know better. Welcome to the Muslim faith!

    I hope you don't take offense to my comments. They are meant to be real and pointed, but also things which should help you to gain the understanding you either never had or lost.

    good luck! -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13.    #993  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    ... Finally, do I really need to spell out how I feel about this? I think that it is garbage and what little morals that are taught through half truth and flat out fiction could be covered by a couple of fables using animals so there would be less confusion.
    No, but when you cite examples, expect to be challenged on what you say. (We're treating this "scientifically", right?) I'll look at your examples but it might be a while (possibly even a few days) before I'm ready to give you the response you deserve.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #994  
    Why was God so Active back 2000 years ago and prior with making his divinty do present, vs now or in recent years?
    There just seems to be sooo many historical act's in the bible and after there just hasnt been any that I know of?
    Has the "Church" published any books of "stories" that they invested and approved as an act of god?
    I know a lot of accounts they may send someone from the Vatican out to investigate a phenomenon to verify if its legit and a lot of cases they'll disprove it.. Anything published that they did approve as an act of God in recent years?
  15. #995  
    Good luck people.
    Keep a blind eye and a deaf ear to anyone who questions your faith (as is obviously happening here). Even people who seem to know what they are talking about are being questioned for proof in the reason they feel the way they do - which most just cannot provide without using the word 'leap' or 'blind' or 'I just know'.
    I will check back here again to see if I there is anything new to respond to but based on what I see here it is repeating the same 'blind faith' and 'I just believe so there' over and over.
    Have a good one. Oh, I have seen Occams Razor (safer to believe than not to) referenced a few times - just for future reference this only works if you already believe in a god because if you don't, then you can only fake it.
    Like a few have said this debate cannot be won - the blindly faithful cannot be swayed and if you don't believe in something you are likely not to without evidence (you would have the same issues trying to making me believe in unicorns). I have stated my points, provided some reading material and that is about all I can do. I know some of you feel like their is evidence but I think you are just making patterns and connections of your own.
  16. #996  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    No, but when you cite examples, expect to be challenged on what you say. (We're treating this "scientifically", right?) I'll look at your examples but it might be a while (possibly even a few days) before I'm ready to give you the response you deserve.
    Ok, i will come back to see that - look forward to it actually. I do highly doubt that there will be much science in it though.
  17. #997  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I don't necessarily mean you but for example: Jim Jones (Peoples Temple founder), David Koresh (Branch Davidian), Order of the Solar Temple, Heavens Gate, and there are other doomsday cults out there.
    These people all twisted the Bible to make it say what they wanted. Again, you can do this with any text. It's unfortunate people do this with the Bible, but it's something that will always happen. Many "Christians" do this today, in fact, and it saddens me.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34
    It is ok to murder people for the following:
    A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped (Deuteronomy 22:23-4)
    A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding (Deuteronomy 22:13-22) - uh oh this may cause some problems nowadays
    Worshiping other gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10, Exodus 22:20) - Should be no problem because there are not others.
    Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18) - Do you believe in witchcraft BTW?
    Cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, and in the New Testament Mark 7:10)
    Again, I have to point you you must take into consideration the laws, culture and context of when those books were written. At that time, that was the punishments for those crimes. When taken into context, it's obvious these are more historical references to punishments and law and not instruction of how we should act today. Will some people choose to interpret such verses as instruction? Of course, but that's not because the Bible is "false" or "wrong". It's because those people are evil and are looking for excuses to back up their actions.

    Sudoer put it well in several other posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34
    Here is a little test i stumbled upon to determine how much of a fundamentalist Christian you are. How many of these do you agree with? The way it is worded possible makes it tough to agree with but think about it. Do these fit your feelings?
    That test is so not right. *rolls eyes* It's obviously written by a non-believer and is totally tongue-in-cheek. Still...I'll respond (in blue).

    10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours. I do deny the existence of other gods, but I do not become enraged when someone denies the one true God. If so....I wouldn't be here!
    9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt. Nope, I don't feel insulted or dehumanized. I simply disagree with that concept.
    8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God. As you said, the Bible never mentions the WORD trinity (which is true), but it clearly references God, the Father....Jesus, the Son....and the holy spirit. I don't laugh at anyone who has a different belief than me.
    7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees! I must point out that #1) the "atrocities" attributed to Allah are people harming other people. True Christians would never murder someone else in cold blood....it goes against the Commandments anyway! #2) The "atrocities" by God were punishments dealt by Him....God the Almighty...not fellow humans.
    6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky. Again...I don't laugh at other's beliefs.
    5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old. It's not been 100% established that the age of the earth is billions of years old (just like global warming, there are scientists on both sides of the fence since carbon dating techniques are not always accurate.) Also, I think most of those "ages" seem made up (i.e., that rock is 35.4 million-trillion-gazillion years old). Really? How do they know that for sure? I'm not spending my life looking for loopholes....as I know what what the truth is.
    4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving." LOL...I always love to hear this one. If we believe what our Bible says and spread the good news of Christ, we're intolerant. Isn't it just as intolerant towards Christians when people tell us we're wrong and to tolerate others? The question (and this quiz) shows an intolerance towards Christians that no one really cares about.
    3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some ***** rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
    Man...it's nice to see the author of this quiz remained "unbiased". Anyway, the whole speaking in tongues thing is something that is completely misunderstood. The Bible specifically says that one should only speak in tongues (if they've been given that gift from the holy spirit) if an interpreter is present. Many "tongues speakers" are just swept up in hype, and aren't really saying anything. If I go to a church where a bunch of people are speaking in tongues....I immediately leave as it's not a true Bible-following church.
    2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God. *rolls eyes* God answers every prayer. Some times that answer is "no" or "not now". If we're following Christ, our wants and desires become closer to God's Will.
    1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian
    The definition of a true Christian is someone who has a relationship with Christ and has repented of their sins and actively seeks God's will. You don't have to be really knowledgeable, but if you truly love God, you'll desire His word and will want to read the Bible...thus becoming more knowledgeable. I do agree that many Christians don't study the Bible enough, but those who are looking to destroy our beliefs (and are intolerant to our religion) are the ones willing to spend lots of time looking up "proof" that we're wrong.

    As for Horus, no...I haven't looked it up before, but I question the validity of your points. What proof backs up each of those items? Is there a text, or archeaological evidence that supports such a man existed? Either way, Jesus claims to be God in the flesh. In the Old Testament, God defeated the Egyptian gods. Isn't Horus an Egyptian god? If so, God/Jesus has defeated Horus. If Jesus and Horus are the same, how can one defeat himself?

    Have a great weekend, everyone!

    Karla
    Last edited by soccerbudd; 02/26/2010 at 04:25 PM.
  18. #998  
    Quote Originally Posted by Bujin View Post
    The natural response: you wouldn't have God if people didn't invent Him.




    There is just as much evidence to support Santa as there is to support Jesus as savior. More, in fact - I actually could see the presents.
    there were over 120 wittnesses , that saw Jesus after he was crucified . Ha ha
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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  19. #999  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I assume by this you mean an education culminating in a High School diploma.
    This usually means a good memorization of Catholic teachings (often without understanding the reasons behind those teachings).
    True! I find that through it all the schools and church wanted me to memorize it and follow it more than understand it, but I find that true of the church still today, as an adult. They would rather I follow and not ask questions than try to explain any of it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Can you tell me what tools your college courses you had (so we know what "tools you have on your belt")?
    I don't understand what you mean. What classes I took? It's been 10 years. 3 Philosophy classes (100, 200, and 300 level) and two World Religion classes in the 100 level.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    This is called the "Trinity" (but you will never see that word in the Bible). Practically all Christians believe in this doctrine (which is supported by Biblical text on it's own). There have been numerous writings on this subject. You can trust the ones that bear the "Nihil obstat" and "Imprimatur" marks of the Church to be interpretations consistent with the original/intended meaning of the Church and it's Bible.
    ...
    Your Catholic education has failed you. Simply think about the Nicene Creed and you will remember that the Son is not 1/3 of him, but all of him). Unless you can later prove yourself otherwise, you've just discounted any credentials you professed.
    I know these things. I was saying that the bible is not easy to understand. God is the father, the son, and the holy ghost but the father is God, the son is God, and I don't think i've ever heard it put this way, but the holy ghost must be God too? Anyway, the point I was making there was not whether or not the doctrine is true, but that the bible is not easy to understand, nor does it even make much sense at all in places.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I believe you when you say this. (It is very evident.) Were you baptized? Have you accepted Him as God (and more than 1/3)? If you were baptized, Do you agree with and live according to the teachings of the Catholic Church? (If not, then I'd venture that you have walked away from him. Do you expect your earthly friends to stay with you when you reject them? If we are made in the image of God, what makes you think he might be different?)
    I've been confirmed at Saint Louis Cathedral in New Orleans. I know the whole deal. But what makes you think I am rejecting God? I thought I made it clear that I believe in God, but I think the bible is silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    If you were baptized, he has affected your life (by joining you to Christ's covenant with mankind). Once again, you can reject the covenant but he will not (unless that's what you want).
    ... a way he has affected my life in a provable, quantifiable way ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I just want to make sure we're using the same definition of the word "believe".
    Sounds like you explain things like the people at Catholic school. I prefer the simpler definition. Something I believe is a thing that is true to me. Some things are true to me because I have seen empirical evidence, like that I believe the sky is blue. Some things are true to me because they are the best explanation I can come up with for something I have witnessed, but I may not have direct evidence, such as seeing the way the universe is justifies my belief in God, because there is too much order in it to be all random, especially once you learn that the universe tries to tend towards chaos. I do not throw reason out of the window to believe in God, reason backs up my belief. But I would have to throw out reason to believe in 90% of the bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    What you are saying sounds so obviously wrong to me that I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you want me to find examples that show otherwise (or better yet, can you site some examples of Satan's interactions with people that do not involve harm)?
    Can you site some that do? And by that I mean, physical or mental harm, not harm to a soul, because part of my argument was that the god (small g on purpose) presented in much of the bible does not seem like someone you want your soul to belong to. At least in the old testament. Set up a scoreboard, get a body count, see who comes out on top.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    You are a bit confused, the devil is not taking anyone from God. God's people need to make a conscious choice to abandon Him. The devil is able to trick people (and to build up this trickery within society) into thinking that sin is right, good, and/or fun. (Please ask yourself if you think there is any credence to the "mental model" that the Church uses to describe Satan. Then tell me if you believe in just God or also in the devil.)
    People know right from wrong, and the problem, devil or not, is that wrong is usually easier and almost always more fun. That's not a trick, it's just a fact. So it begs the question, WHY? God made us, and even while giving us free will, could have made our instincts different, made us desire different things. A lot of that is just built in, not learned or taught by society. Most of the things you want, you would still want if you had been raised by lions in the jungle. So if God loves us and wants us to be with him, why stack the odds against us from birth, with our very genetic code?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Here are the sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church that explain the teachings behind Job. You and I can go through them if you want to. (I haven't yet, and won't unless you are interested.) My point here is that God's word is indexed back into where it's talked about in the Catechism. The Church has provided a means to understand the Bible (contrary to your initial claim):
    No, the church has provided a means to understanding the bible to mean what they think it means, and rejects outside thought on the matter. They do not want to know how I interpret a passage in the bible. If I don't interpret something the way they do, I get exactly what you just gave me, not "I didn't think about it like that" but "You need to learn how to understand it the right way." The church does not want me to THINK.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    They were instructed by the angels that the city would be destroyed. The mere fact that they were running indicates they understood this message as well as God's favor. The angels rescued them from harm, but then gave them instructions (which they had the free choice to follow or not). Lot's wife was turned into salt (essentially declared "worthless") for not following the instruction for her part in the participating work of being saved by God. That pretty much sums up the same message as God's will that we partake in Jesus' suffering on the cross. I didn't have as strong of a Catholic education as you, but then didn't Thomas A. Edison say that Genius is 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration? I suggest you start getting a little sweaty!
    ...
    The fact that he made the rule that he did is part of the intended message. I think I explained why above. If you have a brain, I suggest you start using it. If not, I suggest you talk to a Priest who can help you get back on track.
    The only possible intended message from that is "Follow my word exactly or perish. No matter that I put a natural instinct for curiosity within you, so it's my fault that you even want to look, do EXACTLY what I say or you are worthless to me." One of the philosophical definitions of god is omni-benevolence and that doesn't sound like a stance an all-good being could justify.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Why should I believe your interpretation. So far you've not given me confidence that you've used any of the things you were taught in your analysis.

    How do you even know what values the Bible teaches? How do you know whether you are reading it correctly or not?
    Why should I believe yours? How do you know you weren't taught to read it wrong? All I have to go on, is what I believe, and the God that I feel like I know, would not do the things set forth in the old testament, in fact, that part of the bible feels almost insulting, and as for the new, it seems like alot of confusion for no reason. I can wrap my head around the new better, but the old is flat out ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Green Eggs and Ham never made any claim to be "truth" but the Bible does. So essentially you're telling me you're willing to believe some of what it teaches but that there are other parts you know better. Welcome to the Muslim faith!
    Cyclical logic. The Church is constantly guilty of that. "The bible is true because it says it is true."

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I hope you don't take offense to my comments. They are meant to be real and pointed, but also things which should help you to gain the understanding you either never had or lost.
    Nope, not offended, and I hope you aren't either. I never mind a spirited discussion on spirituality.
  20. #1000  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Good luck people.
    Keep a blind eye and a deaf ear to anyone who questions your faith (as is obviously happening here). Even people who seem to know what they are talking about are being questioned for proof in the reason they feel the way they do - which most just cannot provide without using the word 'leap' or 'blind' or 'I just know'.
    I will check back here again to see if I there is anything new to respond to but based on what I see here it is repeating the same 'blind faith' and 'I just believe so there' over and over.
    Have a good one. Oh, I have seen Occams Razor (safer to believe than not to) referenced a few times - just for future reference this only works if you already believe in a god because if you don't, then you can only fake it.
    Like a few have said this debate cannot be won - the blindly faithful cannot be swayed and if you don't believe in something you are likely not to without evidence (you would have the same issues trying to making me believe in unicorns). I have stated my points, provided some reading material and that is about all I can do. I know some of you feel like their is evidence but I think you are just making patterns and connections of your own.
    my faith is secure in Jesus only by faith in him who first loved us .thanks have a great night.
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
    Here is a direct link to webOS Doc for all carriers
    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->

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