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  1. #81  
    Science is just man's way (whether they know it or not) of trying to understanding God. While science says their motivation is the betterment of mankind, they forget that God's purpose is the betterment of mankind as well.

    Sounds like God is in the details, even as we try to push Him out.
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  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #82  
    Quote Originally Posted by vandelay View Post
    If there is no God, then there is no afterlife, and we have no soul. That means that human life is no more special then the life of the chicken you had for dinner, none of the relationships you have matter, and if you were to die right now, it wouldn't matter. To me, that seems like a rather empty life. Scientifically, we can't prove which religion is better, or if there is a God, or what the meaning of life is, but that is because as I said before, science can only be used to answer "how" while religion is looking for "why?"
    Your argument starts off with an assumption that may or may not be true. There could be a God, but no afterlife. Or, we could have something that equates to a 'soul', without there being a single supreme entity. So all of those things do not necessary follow each other.

    You don't prove the existence of God by proving the religion.

    Personally I believe in the existence "God", but I don't know enough about it's properties to define it much beyond the label "God". I believe in the soul, and life after death... as I've personally experienced obe during a near death experience, and all I can say is, it was a life changing experience. Religion is little more to me than population controls and guidlelines for living.... some of it is beneficial, some of it - not so much.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #83  
    Why is this so scary for people? Can't you just live in the now and enjoy yourself? So what if you don't have a soul? So what if the chicken you just ate for supper is just as important as you? Don't the relationships you have with people matter to you RIGHT NOW?

    Quote Originally Posted by vandelay View Post
    If there is no God, then there is no afterlife, and we have no soul. That means that human life is no more special then the life of the chicken you had for dinner, none of the relationships you have matter, and if you were to die right now, it wouldn't matter.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #84  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    Science is just man's way (whether they know it or not) of trying to understanding God. While science says their motivation is the betterment of mankind, they forget that God's purpose is the betterment of mankind as well.

    Sounds like God is in the details, even as we try to push Him out.
    Nice philosophical spin on science. Here's what wiki says about it:

    Science (from the Latin scientia, meaning "knowledge") is, in its broadest sense, any systematic knowledge-base or prescriptive practice that is capable of resulting in a prediction or predictable type of outcome. In this sense, science may refer to a highly skilled technique or practice.
    In fact, if it was just about trying to understand God, I'd think that this objective would be stated in many, if not all, of the millions of scientific journals and other scientific papers and documents.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. KAM1138
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    #85  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Why is this so scary for people? Can't you just live in the now and enjoy yourself? So what if you don't have a soul? So what if the chicken you just ate for supper is just as important as you? Don't the relationships you have with people matter to you RIGHT NOW?
    Actually, I can think of few things more comforting than NOT believing in God. It allows one to justify pretty much anything, saying in the end, it really doesn't matter.

    The idea that accounting for ones actions in life is daunting. What could be easier than not having to really be accountable. I can only imagine the freedom that someone must feel if they "know" that what they do really doesn't matter in the scheme of things--long term, even less so.

    If we're just a random occurrence--where everything we've ever collectively accomplished will be burned up (if we make it that long), that strikes me as a great way to RELIEVE fear.

    Convincing oneself that they know much more than they do not know is also comforting I would guess. The unknown is what is scary, and even if you choose to believe, it really does remain unknown.

    Not believing something is easy.

    KAM
  6. KAM1138
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    #86  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Nice philosophical spin on science. Here's what wiki says about it:

    In fact, if it was just about trying to understand God, I'd think that this objective would be stated in many, if not all, of the millions of scientific journals and other scientific papers and documents.
    Think of it another way--it is an attempt to understand God's creation (the Universe) and it might make more sense to you--or at least how it would make sense to a Religious believer.

    KAM
  7. #87  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Nice philosophical spin on science. Here's what wiki says about it:



    In fact, if it was just about trying to understand God, I'd think that this objective would be stated in many, if not all, of the millions of scientific journals and other scientific papers and documents.
    That's my point, though. God operates off the same (though, at a higher level of understanding) principles that science prescribes.

    The fact is that God doesn't exclude science any more than science excludes God.

    It is really a matter of what certain religious folk do with their belief in God that irritates the non-believing scientist.

    By the way, why is it that we combine atheism and science all the time? I submit to you that God fearing goes hand in hand with science more than God denying.
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  8. Micael's Avatar
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    #88  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually, I can think of few things more comforting than NOT believing in God. It allows one to justify pretty much anything, saying in the end, it really doesn't matter.
    That happens whether one believes in God or not. I don't agree that just because someone doesn't believe in God, that they are then blind to feelings, rights, love, caring for others, the unborn child, etc. etc. It does not necessarily follow that if you don't believe in God, you're then void of any principles, values, scruples, and just massively wracked with apathy.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  9. Micael's Avatar
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    #89  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Think of it another way--it is an attempt to understand God's creation (the Universe) and it might make more sense to you--or at least how it would make sense to a Religious believer.

    KAM
    That sounds like a creationist's perspective. That's one view, and certainly one that many hold. But it's not the only way to view science.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  10. #90  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    Actually, I can think of few things more comforting than NOT believing in God. It allows one to justify pretty much anything, saying in the end, it really doesn't matter.

    The idea that accounting for ones actions in life is daunting. What could be easier than not having to really be accountable. I can only imagine the freedom that someone must feel if they "know" that what they do really doesn't matter in the scheme of things--long term, even less so.

    If we're just a random occurrence--where everything we've ever collectively accomplished will be burned up (if we make it that long), that strikes me as a great way to RELIEVE fear.

    Convincing oneself that they know much more than they do not know is also comforting I would guess. The unknown is what is scary, and even if you choose to believe, it really does remain unknown.

    Not believing something is easy.

    KAM
    Why do so many people (including my wife) think that just because one does not believe in an almighty God, that person must not feel strongly about or believe in anything?
    Just NOT believing in God is a strong belief, in and of itself.
  11. groovy's Avatar
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    #91  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    That happens whether one believes in God or not. I don't agree that just because someone doesn't believe in God, that they are then blind to feelings, rights, love, caring for others, the unborn child, etc. etc. It does not necessarily follow that if you don't believe in God, you're then void of any principles, values, scruples, and just massively wracked with apathy.
    I think you're absolutely correct. Moreover, I think that view is completely consistent with Christian theology.
  12. #92  
    Of course what you do matters, you are accountable to yourself, the people around you, the members of your family and community. Is this not enough of a reason to act responsibly? If not, we have a legal system to deal with you. Getting **** banged by the leader of a jail gang sounds like a consequence to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    The idea that accounting for ones actions in life is daunting. What could be easier than not having to really be accountable. I can only imagine the freedom that someone must feel if they "know" that what they do really doesn't matter in the scheme of things--long term, even less so.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/17/2010 at 11:05 AM.
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    #93  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Personally I believe in the existence "God", but I don't know enough about it's properties to define it much beyond the label "God". I believe in the soul, and life after death... as I've personally experienced obe during a near death experience, and all I can say is, it was a life changing experience. Religion is little more to me than population controls and guidlelines for living.... some of it is beneficial, some of it - not so much.
    Defining God. That's hard for the most seasoned religious philosopher. God is everywhere and infinite. That is why there is Jesus-more tangible and understandable.

    We cannot even figure out our own brains, so how can we figure out something something so much larger and more complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Why is this so scary for people? Can't you just live in the now and enjoy yourself? So what if you don't have a soul? So what if the chicken you just ate for supper is just as important as you? Don't the relationships you have with people matter to you RIGHT NOW?
    If you do not have a soul, you do not have a life.
  14. #94  
    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    If you do not have a soul, you do not have a life.
    Wha? Last I checked I had a pulse and was faithless at the same time.
  15. #95  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Wha?
    :
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/17/2010 at 12:59 PM.
  16. rjwerth's Avatar
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    #96  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Wha? Last I checked I had a pulse and was faithless at the same time.
    Interesting. So, are you saying that simply because you do not believe you have a soul, you don't? I believe you have a soul.
  17. #97  
    To understand whether or not God exists, you need tp look no further then atheism. Atheist try so hard to justify their arguments by belittling Christians and seeming oh so smarter than the average Christian.

    If the idea to prove whether or not God exists should not include selfish attacks on a Church or any particular religion. Atheist continue to demonize and bash any Church based on their supposed factual evidence that God does not exist.

    Fact, Jesus Christ did walk this earth. Fact, Jesus Christ was crucified, only to not be in his grave 3 days later even when Roman guards watched over his grave site.

    Another fun fact that proves the Bible is God's word and His word is true would be the age limit on humans. After the great flood, God stated no man will live past 120 years. No record of any man or woman to live past 120 exists to this date, no matter how healthy or how much science has helped.

    Something so powerful has survived many wars and 1000's of years of debate through pure faith alone. Yet, atheist demand that we ignore what we know true ourselves and accept that we are nothing but walking sacks of meat.

    Anyone who is truly wanting to know whether God or exists or not should look no further then their own self evidence. You should never look to someone else to tell you what to believe in. Faith is the one thing we can hold true to ourselves and no one can ever tell you different. I know there is a God and His son Jesus Christ came down to this earth to take upon all of our sins, past present and future, and forgive us. He is the ONLY way to the Truth and the Light.

    Anyone really seeking information to help them understand God should pick up a Bible and read through it, talk to several different Christians, or check out www DOT godsaidmansaid DOT com ....
  18. #98  
    Quote Originally Posted by pogeypetey View Post
    Science is just man's way (whether they know it or not) of trying to understanding God. While science says their motivation is the betterment of mankind, they forget that God's purpose is the betterment of mankind as well.

    Sounds like God is in the details, even as we try to push Him out.
    actually I think I read only 6% of scientists are christian. That not a big number by any means. Science is in no way looking for god, sorry. Much of
    science is old and outdated, based on old ideas, but finally it is changing as we move into more of quantum physic science. I believe they have stumbled upon god in quantum theory. But that god, is within all of us, within everything, he doesn't live in heaven, and he wasn't running around in any biblical fairy tale. If enki was sumarian mythology, zeus was greek mythology, etc... Then god is simply jewish mythology, and considering much of the bible comes from others religions, that predate it, some by thousands of years, I don't see how anyone can think it stands on it's own as the unfallible truth.
  19. #99  
    Uhmm, ya. Much like god and other "faith required" beliefs, I need to believe in order for it to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by rjwerth View Post
    Interesting. So, are you saying that simply because you do not believe you have a soul, you don't? I believe you have a soul.
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    #100  
    Quote Originally Posted by redninja View Post
    For starters my time was short, also i'm not sure what you wanted. You said back those claims up, I found and posted a few things, historically, which support what I stated as fact. What did you want me to do, hold your hand through a history lesson? Unless you can dispute any of it, then it is you that are pretending, perhaps based on blind faith. I'm sorry if you can't read through something you don't want the facts on. But it's like the joke I just read.
    The problem is that those links have lots of points. How would you like me to address them? Am I to assume, for example, that you find the entirety of a website about near-death experiences as factual? If not, why would you post it in support of your argument?

    So, here are the facts, Irenaeus wrote against the doctrine of reincarnation in Contra Haereses, as did Tertullian in his Apology. Both of these were from the 2nd Century. Origin, who is most quoted in support of the idea of reincarnation in the early church (including in your links) actually wrote at length against the idea in several commentaries on the Gospels. This not only shows direct evidence that the notion of reincarnation was against early church doctrine but it shows that the Gospels themselves were widely known by his time.

    (moved to this thread from the Palin thread)

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