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  1. #961  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Ouch, I hope you are not claiming that global warming is not occurring because of Al Gores video. The fact is the recent controversy was due to scientist not telling us that the problem is bigger than we were told. I am not a fan of Al Gore (the guy is too full of himself) but global warming is fact. This is also supported by practically every scientist out there (also many who spoke against it in recent years have changed their minds and now support it). I think what CAN be argued about global warming is the cause - that is where there are many different opinions (lookup global cooling - a group of scientist who claim humans many not be the main reason for the temperature changes that ARE occurring). However, the facts are the planet is warming but this could be due to natural causes, human causes, etc.
    The scientific consensus is that earth is occurring. So, I may have misunderstood but I wanted to add that.
    I agree. Global warming is a fact and I would not dispute that. I question the cause that Gore and his group of scientists espouse. There is evidence in either direction -- natural occurrence or man-made -- but it appears the debate is still open (and subsequently I am undecided, I haven't seen enough definitive information). That was needed clarification on your part, thanks.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #962  
    Hello Everyone,

    Just as a PSA--there is a Global Warming Thread that was active some time back for discussing those issues specifically, if anyone here is interested.

    Of course, a less specific Religious thread would be an appropriate place for discussing global warming, because for some it is followed very much a a matter of faithful belief.

    I can guarantee you that the overwhelming influence on our global temperatures is 100% natural...and it is called the Sun. Without that, I assure you, our global temperatures would be much, much cooler.

    KAM
  3. #963  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    You asked where I got this information and I provided an answer (not in my response to you though). I would word it more like I am using your book to prove my point, I have read it before. Have you read any of my suggestions? The problem with the bible is the fact that it can be interpreted to perform both good and bad. It would be so much better if it was a little clearer to avoid so many different interpretations.
    I think about all I can say is that everyone needs to be aware that something you have always believed in may not always be fact. I accept the fact that I could be wrong, I don't think you do. However, i could also be wrong about that.
    I apologize if I come off harsh (which i really don't intend) but I am quite passionate in my feeling that these are not facts and the bible is not historically accurate (unless consulting the Templeton Foundation or their scientists).
    Actually, I did ask where you had gotten that information (I think a few people did), so you're fine. To answer your question, no...I haven't read your suggestions, however, I wouldn't have a problem in doing so. Understanding different viewpoints is very important. That's why I decided to participate in this thread. I want to know why "non-believers" think and feel as they do.

    Actually, the Bible can't really be interpreted to perform good and bad. Like another person said, people can take things way out of context and make it say whatever they want, but that's not because the Bible isn't clear. It's because people have their own agenda. And that's true of ANY text. Not just the Bible. (Heck, I've seen people do the same thing regarding guidelines and procedures at work!)

    The basic gist the Bible is getting across is VERY clear. There is only one God in three persons (Father, Son, Spirit); God sent His son to be sacrificed for our sins, and the only way to spend eternity with God is to establish a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I'm not sure what "bad" things you think the Bible is telling us to do, but I would assume you're thinking of historical accounts and references to the laws and punishments of the day. Just because they're recorded in the Bible doesn't mean you have to do them now. Again, it comes down to context and understand the environment of which the books were written in and by whom.

    What do you feel the Bible is instructing us to do that's "bad"?

    I do accept that not everything we believe is fact (especially when it comes to the government! ). However, when it comes to my faith, I can't believe God doesn't exist because of my experiences.

    Karla
  4. #964  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    This video is not science sorry. This is creationism which is not science and has been proven in court more than once. Also, the scientist in this video are not well received by their peers because there is nothing to be learned from it. This is a god of gaps theory. I tried to watch it based on your recommendation and made it half way through and there was nothing new in this. If there is no science by half way through i doubt there is any at all.
    I just hope you are not a teacher anywhere - no offense, I am sure you are a sweet person but you don't know what science is.
    First of all, props to you for taking the time to watch the video. I'm sorry you didn't think there was anything to be learned from it. I found it fasinating and learned a lot from it.

    As for your teacher comment, that made me laugh. No, I'm not a teacher, but I do have a science degree. I have a pretty good idea of what science is after spending four years learning thermodynamics, differential equations, calculus-based physics, climatology, etc. Just because we disagree doesn't mean I don't know what science is. It's very arrogant to think only your idea of science is correct - no offense.
    Last edited by soccerbudd; 02/26/2010 at 12:22 PM.
  5.    #965  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    ... I am not a fan of Al Gore (the guy is too full of himself) but global warming is fact. This is also supported by practically every scientist out there (also many who spoke against it in recent years have changed their minds and now support it). I think what CAN be argued about global warming is the cause - that is where there are many different opinions ...
    • Al Gore is full of himself but deep down he's a concerned man trying to effect change. I cannot fault him for that.
    • Oftentimes it's as difficult to "fully understand science" as it is to "fully understand faith". (I will agree that fully understanding science would be easier and that fully understanding faith may be impossible.)
    • The point isn't to argue science or a proposed divine revelation until we are blue in the face, but instead it's to be open to critically testing your beliefs.

    EDIT: Let me add that I think everyone participating in this thread seems to have been open to this. (Thanks everyone for remaining respectful of each other.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #966  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    It is at this quintessential point that you and I diverge. Millions of scientific facts, some meaningless, some extremely significant, and many in between, have been proven "100%" and are infallible. Examples:

    Gravity
    Spontaneous cellular mutation
    Table of elements
    Magnetism
    DNA code
    e=mc2
    etc.

    Scientific facts, or laws, are independent of observation, i.e. they exist in nature, are observable, empiric, etc. whether we choose to acknowledge them or not. Faith is the opposite -- believing in something you cannot see, cannot test, and cannot reproduce. To me, faith is believing because you want to, nothing more. I can have faith that when an apple falls from the top of a tree it will head skyward, or that a man (with help from the big guy) parted an ocean, but the laws of science trump that faith every time.

    Anyway, I will continue to wait patiently for proof of Gods existence, because I think that would be pretty neat. And maybe I will look into the video you mention, but it sounds similar to Al Gores video on global warming -- a bunch of data with no reproducible proof. Until then, I enjoy looking into these topics to check on the opinion of the day.
    Yes, we do diverge here. Humans cannot prove anything with 100% certainty other than they exist, because our senses are fallible. So, what may be true to you may not be true to me (I feel like this is a Matrix discussion...).

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I still don't see science and faith as opposite sides of the coin. You claim that the laws of science trump faith every time. What 100% irrefutible, science-based proof is there absolutely proves God DOESN'T exist?
  7.    #967  
    Thanks everyone for bringing the discussion back on track (to why we each hold to our specific beliefs - scientific or otherwise).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #968  
    you wouldn't have science if God didn't invent it . Lol
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  9. #969  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    Yes, we do diverge here. Humans cannot prove anything with 100% certainty other than they exist, because our senses are fallible. So, what may be true to you may not be true to me (I feel like this is a Matrix discussion...).

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I still don't see science and faith as opposite sides of the coin. You claim that the laws of science trump faith every time. What 100% irrefutible, science-based proof is there absolutely proves God DOESN'T exist?
    You might have guessed by now that I am not an athiest, I am agnostic, and open to new information. You mentioned in an earlier post that "there's just too much that's happened for me to assume there isn't a Creator who's orchestrated these various experiences in my life". Do you doubt your own experiences based on the fallibility of your senses, or do you hold them as irrefutable? Beyond the fact that you exist, how can you know the meaning of your experiences are tied to the existence of god? Seems like faith, nothing more.

    To answer your question, there is no proof that god doesn't exist, and there is no proof that he exists, which represents the path to my agnostic position.

    To clarify my earlier point, if there is a scientific fact, such as the law of gravity, no amount of faith (faith acting alone) can counteract that law. So in that respect, yes, scientific laws trump faith "100% of the time". As a science major, I'm fairly certain you should be explaining this to me .
  10. #970  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    you wouldn't have science if God didn't invent it . Lol
  11.    #971  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    To answer your question, there is no proof that god doesn't exist, and there is no proof that he exists, which represents the path to my agnostic position.
    You explained this is a really clear way. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    To clarify my earlier point, if there is a scientific fact, such as the law of gravity, no amount of faith (faith acting alone) can counteract that law.
    Laws of nature are conclusions that we draw based on our observations and understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    So in that respect, yes, scientific laws trump faith "100% of the time".
    • Except for miracles ...
    • ... or when we find special cases that defy our original laws (such as Newtonian vs Quantum Physics).


    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    As a science major, I'm fairly certain you should be explaining this to me .
    She likely already understands that you understand science (and hence there is no reason for her to need to teach that aspect to you).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #972  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    Actually, I did ask where you had gotten that information (I think a few people did), so you're fine. To answer your question, no...I haven't read your suggestions, however, I wouldn't have a problem in doing so. Understanding different viewpoints is very important. That's why I decided to participate in this thread. I want to know why "non-believers" think and feel as they do.

    Actually, the Bible can't really be interpreted to perform good and bad. Like another person said, people can take things way out of context and make it say whatever they want, but that's not because the Bible isn't clear. It's because people have their own agenda. And that's true of ANY text. Not just the Bible. (Heck, I've seen people do the same thing regarding guidelines and procedures at work!)

    The basic gist the Bible is getting across is VERY clear. There is only one God in three persons (Father, Son, Spirit); God sent His son to be sacrificed for our sins, and the only way to spend eternity with God is to establish a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    I'm not sure what "bad" things you think the Bible is telling us to do, but I would assume you're thinking of historical accounts and references to the laws and punishments of the day. Just because they're recorded in the Bible doesn't mean you have to do them now. Again, it comes down to context and understand the environment of which the books were written in and by whom.

    What do you feel the Bible is instructing us to do that's "bad"?

    I do accept that not everything we believe is fact (especially when it comes to the government! ). However, when it comes to my faith, I can't believe God doesn't exist because of my experiences.

    Karla
    I don't necessarily mean you but for example: Jim Jones (Peoples Temple founder), David Koresh (Branch Davidian), Order of the Solar Temple, Heavens Gate, and there are other doomsday cults out there.

    There are people who can interpret the bible different that you do. This is proven by multiple religious devisions that use the same book. Not all of them are negative but there are passages that state that killing is acceptable in some instances.

    It is ok to murder people for the following:
    A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped (Deuteronomy 22:23-4)
    A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding (Deuteronomy 22:13-22) - uh oh this may cause some problems nowadays
    Worshiping other gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10, Exodus 22:20) - Should be no problem because there are not others.
    Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18) - Do you believe in witchcraft BTW?
    Cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, and in the New Testament Mark 7:10)

    Some of these would certainly be considered extreme by many people today but others are willing to follow these items to the letter. You state that you take the bible as literal truth right? Are all of these ok with you?

    Here is a little test i stumbled upon to determine how much of a fundamentalist Christian you are. How many of these do you agree with? The way it is worded possible makes it tough to agree with but think about it. Do these fit your feelings?
    10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
    9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
    8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
    7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
    6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
    5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
    4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
    3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some ***** rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
    2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
    1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian

    The trinity is not mentioned in the bible but since you mentioned it...
    So, Jesus was god based on the trinity so that means there really was no sacrifice because Jesus (God) knew that he could not actually be killed (because he was god) and therefore what is the big deal about raising from the dead a few days later. This would seem like pretty simple work for a god. Why did he even let all of that go on to begin with he could have just walked through a wall to get away or float off the cross? Seems a little odd to put on such a spectacle and act like a man when the whole time he was your god.

    Also, have you ever looked up a the Egyptian god Horus who was worshiped an estimated 2000 years before Jesus? Many similarities to your Jesus:
    1. Both were conceived of a virgin.
    2. Both were the "only begotten son" of a god (either Osiris or Yahweh)
    3. Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary.
    4. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
    5. Both foster fathers were of royal descent.
    6. Both were born in a cave (although sometimes Jesus is said to have been born in a stable).
    7. Both had their coming announced to their mother by an angel.
    8. Horus; birth was heralded by the star Sirius (the morning star). Jesus had his birth heralded by a star in the East (the sun rises in the East).
    9. Ancient Egyptians celebrated the birth of Horus on December 21 (the Winter Solstice). Modern Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25.
    10. Both births were announced by angels (this si nto the same as number 7).
    11. Both had shepherds witnessing the birth.
    12. Horus was visited at birth by "three solar deities" and Jesus was visited by "three wise men".
    13. After the birth of Horus, Herut tried to have Horus murdered. After the birth of Jesus, Herod tried to have Jesus murdered.
    14. To hide from Herut, the god That tells Isis, "Come, thou goddess Isis, hide thyself with thy child." To hide from Herod, an angel tells Joseph to "arise and take the young child and his mother and flee into Egypt."
    15. When Horus came of age, he had a special ritual where hsi eye was restored. When Jesus (and other Jews) come of age, they have a special ritual called a Bar Mitzvah.
    16. Both Horus and Jesus were 12 at this coming-of-age ritual.
    17. Neither have any official recorded life histories between the ages of 12 and 30.
    18. Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus. Jesus was baptized in the river Jordan.
    19. Both were baptized at age 30.
    20. Horus was baptized by Anup the Baptizer. Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist.
    21. Both Anup and John were later beheaded.
    22. Horus was taken from the desert of Amenta up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Set. Jesus was taken from the desert in Palestine up a high mountain to be tempted by his arch-rival Satan.
    23. Both Horus and Jesus successfully resist this temptation.
    24. Both have 12 disciples.
    25. Both walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, and restored sight to the blind.
    26. Horus "stilled the sea by his power." Jesus commanded the sea to be still by saying, "Peace, be still."
    27. Horus raised his dead father (Osiris) from the grave. Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave. (Note the similarity in names when you say them out loud. Further, Osiris was also known as Asar, which is El-Asar in Hebrew, which is El-Asarus in Latin.)
    28. Osiris was raised in the town of Anu. Lazarus was raised in Livanu (literally, "house of Anu").
    29. Both gods delivered a Sermon on the Mount.
    30. Both were crucified.
    31. Both were crucified next to two thieves.
    32. Both were buried in a tomb.
    33. Horus was sent to Hell and resurrected in 3 days. Jesus was sent to Hell and came back "three days" later (although Friday night to Sunday morning is hardly three days).
    34. Both had their resurrection announced by women.
    35. Both are supposed to return for a 1000-year reign.
    36. Horus is known as KRST, the anointed one. Jesus was known as the Christ (which means "anointed one").
    37. Both Jesus and Horus have been called the good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, and the winnower.
    38. Both are associated with the zodiac sign of Pisces (the fish).
    39. Both are associated with the symbols of the fish, the beetle, the vine, and the shepherd's crook.
    40. Horus was born in Anu ("the place of bread") and Jesus was born in Livlehem ("the house of bread").
    41. "The infant Horus was carried out of Egypt to escape the wrath of Typhon. The infant Jesus was carried into Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod. Concerning the infant Jesus, the New Testament states the following prophecy: 'Out of Egypt have I called my son.'" (See Point 13)
    42. Both were transfigured on the mount.
    43. The catacombs of Rome have pictures of the infant Horus being held by his mother, not unlike the modern-day images of "Madonna and Child."
    44. Noted English author C. W. King says that both Isis and Mary are called "Immaculate".
    45. Horus says: "Osiris, I am your son, come to glorify your soul, and to give you even more power." And Jesus says: "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once."
    46. Horus was identified with the Tau (cross).

    Anyway, let me know if you have any questions - good discussion!
  13. #973  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    You might have guessed by now that I am not an athiest, I am agnostic, and open to new information. You mentioned in an earlier post that "there's just too much that's happened for me to assume there isn't a Creator who's orchestrated these various experiences in my life". Do you doubt your own experiences based on the fallibility of your senses, or do you hold them as irrefutable? Beyond the fact that you exist, how can you know the meaning of your experiences are tied to the existence of god? Seems like faith, nothing more.

    To answer your question, there is no proof that god doesn't exist, and there is no proof that he exists, which represents the path to my agnostic position.

    To clarify my earlier point, if there is a scientific fact, such as the law of gravity, no amount of faith (faith acting alone) can counteract that law. So in that respect, yes, scientific laws trump faith "100% of the time". As a science major, I'm fairly certain you should be explaining this to me .
    Your comment about my earlier statement regarding "my experiences" is absolutely correct. For me...the things in my life were orchestrated by God. Were they simply coincidence? Maybe, but based on the nature of God, my relationship with Christ and what's promised in the Bible, I have faith that He is there. My senses are indeed fallible, but it's what I choose to believe. That's the "faith" piece, as you said.

    Anyway, you keep mentioning that gravity is a scientific fact. Did you know that not all scientists agree that's it's a fact and is actually more of a theory? It's something I stumbled across while reading information on "anti-gravity" technology. Interesting!

    Karla
  14. #974  
    Keep in mind that I am a Catholic with 12 years of private Catholic school behind me, plus some religious studies and philosophy classes in college, and even I can't make sense of some of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    The basic gist the Bible is getting across is VERY clear. There is only one God in three persons (Father, Son, Spirit); God sent His son to be sacrificed for our sins, and the only way to spend eternity with God is to establish a relationship with Jesus Christ.
    Yeah, because that is perfectly understandable to everyone. There's one God, but he's really three people. And even though God is all powerful, all knowing, and makes all the rules, instead of just forgiving the people he knows are sorry (or are ever going to be) he sets up this sin system that requires his son, who is also 1/3 of him, to die so that he can allow himself to forgive us. Even after all that, if we don't follow these rules, and develop a relationship with someone we will never meet while we are alive, we do not get to go to heaven, no matter how good we might actually be.

    Clear as mud.

    I've never met President George Washington, or Christopher Columbus, yet their actions have had a provable and profound impact on my life, since I am an american. Things they did way back when affect the way I live every single day, without believing in anything you can't see. Yet if I said I was trying to follow the things they said and emulating their lives in an effort to develop a relationship with them, you would say I was nuts.

    Why is it different with Jesus, who has had no provable impact on my life at all? Remember, you can't use anything I can't see or measure to prove he affected my life.

    The thing is, I actually believe in God, but the bible is a ridiculous mess. For instance, find me a spot where the devil hurts someone. Outside of hell, where it's supposedly his job to punish people, and as such he is performing a service to God, the devil never causes harm to anyone. You might say that by trying to take people from God he is hurting them, but that might actually be a good thing if you believe what you read in the bible. God hurts people left and right, whether you believe in him or not. He tortures his biggest believer in the old testament, Job, just to prove a point to the devil. He lets Lot's wife turn in to a pillar of salt just because she took a look at the destruction of her home as she fled. Doesn't God make the rules? Couldn't he have created non-salt-inducing destruction to allow her to live? Or couldn't he have destroyed the city around them while they slept comfortably without even noticing, leaving them and their home unharmed?

    Of course he could, he's God, he can do anything, and the reason the bible doesn't make sense is because it's not true and it was written by people. It is just a collection of stories meant to teach morals, like a children's book, or sometimes used by rulers to help control the population, and nothing more. I believe in the values it teaches, but I think anyone who thinks it is all true is as stupid as somone who thinks the same of Green Eggs and Ham.
  15. #975  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post

    Anyway, you keep mentioning that gravity is a scientific fact. Did you know that not all scientists agree that's it's a fact and is actually more of a theory? It's something I stumbled across while reading information on "anti-gravity" technology. Interesting!

    Karla
    I thought you said you had a science degree. You may want to go back to your text books and look up what a scientific theory is. Hint: it is based on facts
  16. #976  
    jverity - that is some good stuff.
  17.    #977  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    There are people who can interpret the bible different that you do.
    I covered this before in the thread (that the Church who gave us this inerrant word of God was also entrusted to clarify misunderstandings and to defend the faith as revealed to us by Jesus through the apostles).

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    This is proven by multiple religious devisions that use the same book. Not all of them are negative but there are passages that state that killing is acceptable in some instances.
    It only proves that when the book is used incorrectly, that problems can (and usually do) arise.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    It is ok to murder people for the following:
    A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped (Deuteronomy 22:23-4)
    A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding (Deuteronomy 22:13-22) - uh oh this may cause some problems nowadays
    Worshiping other gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10, Exodus 22:20) - Should be no problem because there are not others.
    Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18) - Do you believe in witchcraft BTW?
    Cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, and in the New Testament Mark 7:10)
    Please make the quotations of the passages as well as what your interpretation is and why. We can proceed with the debate once we know your objections.
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  18. #978  
    Quote Originally Posted by jverity View Post
    Keep in mind that I am a Catholic with 12 years of private Catholic school behind me, plus some religious studies and philosophy classes in college, and even I can't make sense of some of this.



    Yeah, because that is perfectly understandable to everyone. There's one God, but he's really three people. And even though God is all powerful, all knowing, and makes all the rules, instead of just forgiving the people he knows are sorry (or are ever going to be) he sets up this sin system that requires his son, who is also 1/3 of him, to die so that he can allow himself to forgive us. Even after all that, if we don't follow these rules, and develop a relationship with someone we will never meet while we are alive, we do not get to go to heaven, no matter how good we might actually be.

    Clear as mud.

    I've never met President George Washington, or Christopher Columbus, yet their actions have had a provable and profound impact on my life, since I am an american. Things they did way back when affect the way I live every single day, without believing in anything you can't see. Yet if I said I was trying to follow the things they said and emulating their lives in an effort to develop a relationship with them, you would say I was nuts.

    Why is it different with Jesus, who has had no provable impact on my life at all? Remember, you can't use anything I can't see or measure to prove he affected my life.

    The thing is, I actually believe in God, but the bible is a ridiculous mess. For instance, find me a spot where the devil hurts someone. Outside of hell, where it's supposedly his job to punish people, and as such he is performing a service to God, the devil never causes harm to anyone. You might say that by trying to take people from God he is hurting them, but that might actually be a good thing if you believe what you read in the bible. God hurts people left and right, whether you believe in him or not. He tortures his biggest believer in the old testament, Job, just to prove a point to the devil. He lets Lot's wife turn in to a pillar of salt just because she took a look at the destruction of her home as she fled. Doesn't God make the rules? Couldn't he have created non-salt-inducing destruction to allow her to live? Or couldn't he have destroyed the city around them while they slept comfortably without even noticing, leaving them and their home unharmed?

    Of course he could, he's God, he can do anything, and the reason the bible doesn't make sense is because it's not true and it was written by people. It is just a collection of stories meant to teach morals, like a children's book, or sometimes used by rulers to help control the population, and nothing more. I believe in the values it teaches, but I think anyone who thinks it is all true is as stupid as somone who thinks the same of Green Eggs and Ham.
    its different with Jesus because he is still alive and not dead !!!
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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    http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/...octor_Versions
    P.S. if i have helped you and you are thankful please hit the thanks button to the right---->
  19. #979  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Please make the quotations of the passages as well as what your interpretation is and why. We can proceed with the debate once we know your objections.
    A betrothed woman who does not cry out while being raped (Deuteronomy 22:23-4) What if no one heard her scream? Should we kill her anyway? Chances are pretty good that if a woman is being raped she will scream unless she is gaged first - then we should kill her for that too. My point - this is archaic.

    A woman who is found not to have been a virgin on the night of her wedding (Deuteronomy 22:13-22) - uh oh this may cause some problems nowadays because people can get married more than one or have premarital sex. My point - this is archaic.

    Worshiping other gods (Deuteronomy 13:6-13:10, Exodus 22:20) - Should be no problem because there are not others. My Point here - I only believe in one less god than you. Please don't try to kill me.

    Witchcraft (Exodus 22:18) - Do you believe in witchcraft BTW? Uhh I don't believe in witchcraft either. My point - this is archaic.

    Cursing a parent (Exodus 21:15, 21:17, Leviticus 20:9, and in the New Testament Mark 7:10) If my parents are wrong I am going to let them know it. Again, please don't try to kill me for that as this too, is archaic.

    Would you kill for these things? Would you kill your daughter if she had premarital sex? I sure hope not. However, it has and does happen which I think is wrong.

    Finally, do I really need to spell out how I feel about this? I think that it is garbage and what little morals that are taught through half truth and flat out fiction could be covered by a couple of fables using animals so there would be less confusion.
  20. #980  
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadavis08 View Post
    its different with Jesus because he is still alive and not dead !!!
    What religion is this one? I am familiar with many but this one is really out there.

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