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  1. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #921  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    People are always quick to reference the Crusades and how Christians were killing people, however, they fail to include the fact that it was muslims trying to invade France and then Spain, which was dominated by Christians at the time. The Christians were only fighting back to reclaim control of their land!
    The Crusades and the Inquisition are often the poster children of anti-religious folks, but unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of half-truths carried along with it, and also when they talk about the supposed persecution of scientists. In short--each of these accusations are referring to complex issues, that more often than not are political in nature, rather than religious, yet Religion is always the target. Exploring the evidence of these various things with an objective view (rather than an anti-religious motivation) would tell you this. Unfortunately, these things are wielded like clubs very often by people that don't have much understanding at all.

    I have to laugh when people say "Religion is the most harmful thing ever." Well, first--that is a highly subjective claim, which relies on ignoring the full depth of the issues, and often ignores the very well defined actions of specifically atheistic ideologies that in MODERN days have caused tens of millions of deaths quite directly. Secondly, they often seem to ignore the intertwined nature of politics and religion in history, but making sure that Religion is always blamed. That's not at all objective.

    KAM
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #922  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    But sudoer and I have done nothing but back our statements using scripture.
    The contradiction lies in those who twist the scriptures believing it somehow gets them a 'shoe in'.
    Exactly! Thank you! I wasn't taking a position, just pointing to this twist of logic. So, another spin on this paradox could be: if they are misled, or misunderstanding, the scripture, are they saved? If the pastor misleads his flock (knowingly or not), are they all damned?
    It makes absolutely no sense to tell someone their 'saved' when they are obviously blatantly living contrary to faith, especially when it doesn't harmonize with scripture.
    It does if you're trying to sell them on a different idea of Christianity. I've sat in Protestant pews listening to sermons about salvation. I've had ministers tell me directly that yes, if der fuhrer accepted Christ before he died, he was saved and went to heaven. I'm not saying its right or wrong. I'm just saying it's taught.
    It was tongue in cheek.... hence the coke/pepsi challenge reference.
    You, on the other hand seem to be dodging where you stand.
    Huh?! Where have I been unclear on where I stand? Which question did I dodge? I bet I've stated at least 5 times in this thread that I'm not a Christian. Does that mean I should remain silent? Should I not talk about my (mis)understanding of Christianity?
    I don't need to know, or care where you stand.
    Great. Maybe we'll just end it with that.
    And I'm surely not going to assume to put you in a 'camp'.
    Thanks for attempting to challenge my convictions.
    I didn't. You just chose to take it that way. My first sentence on this particular part of the discussion was "If I understand Protestant Christianity, and please correct me, but the answer basically boils down to this:"

    How challenging was that? You won't be challenged again by me.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #923  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Neither of these were in early Christianity. Perhaps you can play "Jeapordy" and give me a new question that applies to the above answer. (thanks)
    It should also be noted that Christians were regularly killed by others in the early days.

    I suggest that Christianity alone is responsible for few deaths, and only when coupled with a political entity or political occurrence did any of these accusations even come close to being true.

    This isn't to say that Christianity or any other Religion is blameless, but rather that slaughtering people is really quite contrary to the beliefs of most Religions, and it certainly isn't a premise of Christianity, so the continued desire to attack religions on this basis is really inaccurate. Only by VIOLATING the principles of these Religions does this occur (in most cases).

    KAM
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #924  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I think he's thinking Catholicism vs Protestantism are somehow different churches. They're the same church, worshiping the same God. The difference between Catholics and any denomination is they think we made some mistakes which they each have corrected. We assert the "men in the Church" needed (can even drop the past tense here) to reform, but that splitting the one Church established by Christ was (is) not the way to do this.

    So we (Catholics) don't see it as Coke bis Pepsi, but more like Sprint and Boost Mobile.
    They are absolutely different churches. One could make the same argument that Islam and Judism are also of the same church, worshiping the same God.... there's just some minor differences between them. We're only talking about degrees of separation here.

    Oh, and the Catholic Church wasn't established by Christ. It was based, in part, on his teachings.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5.    #925  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, another spin on this paradox could be: if they are misled, or misunderstanding, the scripture, are they saved? If the pastor misleads his flock (knowingly or not), are they all damned?
    1. If they knowingly mislead the flock and do not repent, this is serious.
    2. If they unknowingly mislead the flock, this is ignorance. (The severity would depend on whether they had opportunities to learn otherwise or not.)
    3. God makes the decisions about who are damned (so I cannot answer that part).


    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    How challenging was that? You won't be challenged again by me.
    I'd just let it pass (and not worry about any challenge or perception of challenges).
    We all misunderstand each other from time to time (and that's likely what happened here).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. #926  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    The return according to Jesus -
    Please provide a reference or more details. (If you are right, then I can move onto "other religions".)
    In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus answered two questions that His disciples had asked Him:
    When would the Temple be destroyed? and
    What is the sign people should expect that will herald the end of the world and the return of Christ?
    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.'' (Matthew 24:34)
    "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.'' (Mark 13:30)
    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.'' (Luke 21:32)
    I wanted to address this item very quick. First of all, I find it interesting that you're using the Bible (a book you think is all fantasy) to prove your point. Secondly, the word generation is used ambiguously throughout the Bible. The original greek work "genea" has several meanings:

    1. Denotes a physical family "generation" or bloodline.
    2. Denotes the spiritual family or "generation" of evil.
    3. Denote the spiritual family or "generation" of Christ.

    As such, to just say a generation means exactly what it does in English is naiive. This is also true regarding the context of what Jesus is saying. In this particular chapter, He is referring to later day events. When you apply the meaning of the original greek to the timeframe of which Jesus is speaking, you can see He's not only referring to an immediate, present family group.

    The children of God are referred to as the whole family of God (like another person posted, our relationship, as a church, to God is as His "bride"). This is a chosen generation (or family) that has existed throughout time, and it's not about people who were just living during the particular time the book was written.

    God uses family relationships to illustrate those who are of the same spiritual kinship.

    Anyway, this just reiterates the importance of understanding what the Bible is saying within context of when particular books were written and by whom. It's easy to quote verses, and you can make the Bible say whatever you want. You need to understand what you're referencing to make sure it's even valid.
  7. brdl04's Avatar
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    #927  
    If atheists are right:

    You die, you just fail to exist anymore, and nothing matters


    If Christians are right:
    If you die without believing that Jesus Christ is God then you go to a terrible place called hell.


    Both cannot be right. both can be wrong, but both cannot be right.

    If I am a christian, and the atheist is right, then I end up living a moral life so to say and cease to exist.

    If I am an atheist and the christian is right, and I die.... Im in big trouble...

    Better to be safe than sorry
    Last edited by brdl04; 02/25/2010 at 04:29 PM.
  8. #928  
    Quote Originally Posted by brdl04 View Post
    If atheists are right:

    You die, you just fail to exist anymore, and nothing matters


    If Christians are right:
    If you die without believing that Jesus Christ is God then you go to a terrible place called hell.


    Both cannot be right. both can be wrong, but both cannot be right.

    If I am a christian, and the atheist is right, then I end up living a moral life so to say and cease to exist.

    If I am an atheist and the christian is right, and I die.... Im in big trouble...
    Okay..... and?
  9. #929  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    I wanted to address this item very quick. First of all, I find it interesting that you're using the Bible (a book you think is all fantasy) to prove your point. Secondly, the word generation is used ambiguously throughout the Bible. The original greek work "genea" has several meanings:

    1. Denotes a physical family "generation" or bloodline.
    2. Denotes the spiritual family or "generation" of evil.
    3. Denote the spiritual family or "generation" of Christ.

    As such, to just say a generation means exactly what it does in English is naiive. This is also true regarding the context of what Jesus is saying. In this particular chapter, He is referring to later day events. When you apply the meaning of the original greek to the timeframe of which Jesus is speaking, you can see He's not only referring to an immediate, present family group.

    The children of God are referred to as the whole family of God (like another person posted, our relationship, as a church, to God is as His "bride"). This is a chosen generation (or family) that has existed throughout time, and it's not about people who were just living during the particular time the book was written.

    God uses family relationships to illustrate those who are of the same spiritual kinship.

    Anyway, this just reiterates the importance of understanding what the Bible is saying within context of when particular books were written and by whom. It's easy to quote verses, and you can make the Bible say whatever you want. You need to understand what you're referencing to make sure it's even valid.
    You asked where I got this information and I provided an answer (not in my response to you though). I would word it more like I am using your book to prove my point, I have read it before. Have you read any of my suggestions? The problem with the bible is the fact that it can be interpreted to perform both good and bad. It would be so much better if it was a little clearer to avoid so many different interpretations.
    I think about all I can say is that everyone needs to be aware that something you have always believed in may not always be fact. I accept the fact that I could be wrong, I don't think you do. However, i could also be wrong about that.
    I apologize if I come off harsh (which i really don't intend) but I am quite passionate in my feeling that these are not facts and the bible is not historically accurate (unless consulting the Templeton Foundation or their scientists).
  10. brdl04's Avatar
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    #930  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Okay..... and?
    Better be safe than sorry my friend.
  11. Micael's Avatar
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    #931  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    ... The problem with the bible is the fact that it can be interpreted to perform both good and bad. It would be so much better if it was a little clearer to avoid so many different interpretations....
    Bingo. You can support, or tear down, just about any vew that you want, using scripture. It's a great tool. It's been used for centuries to impose the greedy will of the church. This is irrefutable. Any justification you need, it can be found there if you pull from it correctly.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  12.    #932  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    They are absolutely different churches.
    I really don't want to have to argue this but I believe my position is defendable. I'd prefer to "agree to disagree" (unless you or another reader really wants to hear an answer).

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    One could make the same argument that Islam and Judism are also of the same church, worshiping the same God.... there's just some minor differences between them. We're only talking about degrees of separation here.
    Correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Oh, and the Catholic Church wasn't established by Christ. It was based, in part, on his teachings.
    Christ established a Christian Church that has seen splits away from it, but history bears out that this Church has continually existed with Apostolic succession since the time of Christ. If Christ didn't establish this Church, who did?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  13. #933  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, another spin on this paradox could be: if they are misled, or misunderstanding, the scripture, are they saved? If the pastor misleads his flock (knowingly or not), are they all damned?.
    Matthew 15:14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

    But again,

    God can read hearts.

    I don't think we're going to find a; 'if this - do this'

    There are examples of people being held accountable for seemingly lesser sins. And others being forgiven for seemingly greater sins.
    God is also able to see circumstances and weigh those against what the individual may or may not do, given such and such circumstances.

    1 John 3:20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
    Just call me Berd.
  14.    #934  
    Quote Originally Posted by brdl04 View Post
    Better be safe than sorry my friend.
    It's the "Pascal's wager" argument of why it's "better" (more logical) to believe in God.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  15.    #935  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Bingo. You can support, or tear down, just about any vew that you want, using scripture. It's a great tool. It's been used for centuries to impose the greedy will of the church. This is irrefutable. Any justification you need, it can be found there if you pull from it correctly.
    This is back to my "God established one Church" thing. Jesus did not intend for the Church to split, but instead, to remain unified. Maybe someday (perhaps in this millennium) we can get back to a single Christian Church.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #936  
    Quote Originally Posted by brdl04 View Post
    You die, you just fail to exist anymore, and nothing matters
    I fail to see how this is a problem.
    Sprint|Samsung Epic
  17. #937  
    I just wanted to share a conversation I was having w/ my girlfriend (yes I slept w/ her and were not married, is that still a sin?) and it raise dsome questions for me...

    Her Mom and Dad are both religious (My GF believes in God but does not like religion) they frequent church regularly, however her Mother is almost "overly religious". All conversations always mention God and Jesus, her father rarely does in conversation, sometime applied w/ destiny quotes, but rarley name drops. It had me thinking as to why this is, they share the same life participate in the same activities but one is more "outgoingly" religious then the other... Could be behavioral?...

    Side note: My gf is a PhD in human Development/Psychology and had a convo last month about chemical reactions in the brain and how a true Psychopath's brain has no chemical response to certain emotions ie "love".

    Could a religious person's brain create a detectable chemical response to the emotions elicited during a conversation of religion/faith/God ie..?

    Im almost positive it would through logic, being that every emotion and action our brain endures can be seen in neuroimaging studies... So could people that are religious have chemical responses in their brain that encourage/influence their religous beliefs and vice versa for atheists/ agnostics???

    I find this very interesting and will research this and let the thread know of my findings, unless no one cares!
  18. #938  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Okay..... and?
    haha
  19. #939  
    Are we really going to toss the Bible out the window because of the manipulations of those who attempt to represent it?

    The Pharisees knew the scriptures well. But did they get the sense of it?
    Did the first century Christians then decide to say. 'We can't use the Bible, because the Pharisees have twisted it to fit their needs?

    The message isn't invalidated by the failure of the majority to understand it.

    Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
    Matthew 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
    Just call me Berd.
  20. #940  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Are we really going to toss the Bible out the window because of the manipulations of those who attempt to represent it?
    I say yes!! Who is with me! Charge!

    You didn't think I would let that go did you?

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