Page 46 of 89 FirstFirst ... 36414243444546474849505156 ... LastLast
Results 901 to 920 of 1780
  1. #901  
    Quote Originally Posted by Samizdat2003 View Post
    A good thing too, since you're misinformed about the alleged "doctoring" of data. But then the vast majority of climatologists are probably all wrong or lying, right?
    Wow...and everyone was being so polite and reasonable....

    Anyway, I'm not misinformed about the doctoring of data. There was a news story that came out (a few weeks ago on a couple media outlets) that talked about the data not coming back the way scientists anticipated, so they fudged the numbers a little. If you didn't see the article, it just proves my point that it wasn't widely reported on since it didn't fit the agenda.

    As for lying climatologists...YES! Several of them have resigned since they made up data and reported assumptions as 100% fact! Do a web search on "climategate" and see for yourself!

    Also, maybe you missed the part of my posted that mentioned having a degree in meteorology...which usually combined with climatology. When ALL (not some) of my professors (who all have doctorates) disagree with man-made climate change....I simply can't believe what Al Gore says or anyone else who is making money from "global warming".

    Karla
    Last edited by soccerbudd; 02/25/2010 at 02:16 PM.
  2. #902  
    To bad this thread didn't start off with a poll. It would have been nice to see the believers vs. non believers ratio in here.
    Last edited by vza33; 02/25/2010 at 02:23 PM.
    "Patience, use the force, think." Obi-Wan


    Ready to try Preware? Get this first: Preware Homebrew Documentation
  3. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #903  
    Ok, I get it. Berd and sudoer are in the works with faith camp. Thats cool. I've had others stress the faith only version.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  4. #904  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Ok, I get it. Berd and sudoer are in the works with faith camp. Thats cool. I've had others stress the faith only version.
    But you said I contradicted myself.

    Also,
    Please don't lump me in with a 'camp'.
    Just call me Berd.
  5. Micael's Avatar
    Posts
    736 Posts
    Global Posts
    739 Global Posts
    #905  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    But you said I contradicted myself.
    My goal was to point out that your view illustrates a contradiction. Not that you contradicted yourself.
    Also,
    Please don't lump me in with a 'camp'.
    I don't lump, you made it pretty clear..... or did I misread? Come on Berd, make a stand man! Coke or Pepsi!
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6.    #906  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Wow - I am completely baffled every time I listen to someone who claims that the existence is solid evidence. I think the 'solid' evidence is pretty lacking ...
    Welcome to the discussion. It's refreshing to hear your viewpoints. I don't know that I'd say that religion is supposed to fill in the holes that science can't (or at least can't right now). I believe if God is real, there should be one religion that does some of this while also not contradicting science.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    ... based on the amount of different religions in existence today let alone the ones that are now extinct (Greek, Horus, etc.) What on earth makes you think you are right about it this time?
    My approach seems futile: to methodically search through all religions and disprove each, when they have all been disproven, or when the limit of proving one approaches infinity, I can ascertain (at least at that moment) that I've found an answer. Yep, that sounds pretty futile, so I understand and appreciate your logic!

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Science has historically been attacked by the religious slowing our ability to move forward and improve life.
    I can be helped if we discuss some examples. Do you care to elaborate or your top one (or three) example(s)?

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    To me religion always appears to be more of a defensive position against everything else. If there is something that is not understood it is because god did it and we should not even try to figure it out - we are done here folks * brushes hands off*.
    Considering we live in a time-ordered world, I'd say we are "never really done" (and that this really is an "unanswerable question").

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    If intelligent design is too complex to have just happened then whatever made it is also complex and therefore who made god? Taboo question right.
    Not taboo to me, but then who made that which made God? The only logical conclusion (perhaps only in my mind) is that "something always was". I'm willing to label that "something" as "God" and see if He produces any evidence that points me in the direction that He is real.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I feel sorry for you, your friends, and your family that your primary focus is in pleasing an imaginary figure and not them.
    They feel sorry for me too. I would not say this is my primary focus, but I will agree (at least for me) that this is one of many high priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    IThis is it people so enjoy it and quit thinking about the next step because there is probably not one.
    This is a very refreshing thought (and one which may improve the earthly lives of many people).

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Why are you so afraid of that fact?
    I (for one) am not afraid, just searching (hence the reason I started this thread).

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    What evidence (and I mean evidence not the bible says so) do you have that you will live beyond your death?
    Aside from the Bible and the teachings of the Church that wrote it, and a lack of contradiction between my current evidence and scientific observations, I have no other evidence to be examined.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Your version of what god is is different that the guy sitting next to you due to a complete lack of evidence to his existence.
    What if each of our versions of God agreed? Would that prove anything (or would there just be more than one of us that are deluded)? Again, the selection criteria for a religion is simple to me: if one exists that has not yet proven itself wrong, I can comfortably "take it on faith" that it describes this unknown God.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Wasn't Jesus supposed to come back before the next generation died?
    Please provide a reference or more details. (If you are right, then I can move onto "other religions".)

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Read something from people who are not blinded by faith and you may actually learn something useful.
    Any suggestions?

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Sorry for the rant but religion is the most devastating thing that has ever occurred and Christianity was initially spread by the sword ...
    References?

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Also, priest are pedophiles but I guess that was forgotten in the 10 commandments so it is probably okay.
    It's covered by several of the commandments (but mostly in #6 (Catholic) or #7 (Protestant).

    Once again, welcome to the discussion. Hopefully I've explained my position with respect to your comments. Your ideas and challenges will make this a better thread!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7.    #907  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Woops. Ok, well I hope someone can shed some light on this. It's one of the many parts of this discussion that is a sticking point for me -- a deal breaker.
    Regarding "faith vs works", I could probably say more, but I'll have to be very careful to "say it right". (I was hoping I said it "good enough" so far.) I purchased a book on this topic, but it's lent to someone else and I haven't read it myself yet. (I can probably google the name and add the title here if you want to get that book.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8. #908  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    @donovan34 - You asked why we're afraid that there's probably not another step in life. How do you know there's not another step. You need proof that God exists, well I need proof that he doesn't exist. With the types of miracles I've witnessed and the different experiences in my life, there is no doubt that God exists, so like you, I need proof that you're right. Do you have proof that I my soul won't continue to life beyond death?

    What is the complete lack of evidence you are referring to? What do you need to see, know, hear, feel to know that God is real?

    As for Jesus, where are you getting the idea that Jesus was supposed to come back before the next generation died? What book are you quoting, because the Bible doesn't say when Jesus will return. In fact it says not even the angels know the hour of Jesus's return.

    I'm glad you're endeavoring to be a good person, but for what? If there's no God, then why does any of it matter? How do you know you're even being good? What is the basis for good and evil?

    I'd actually like to know your answers to these questions, because they'll help me understand your reasons.

    As for God being selfish, quite the contrary. While the Bible often says that God is a jealous God, he has every right to be since we are His creation.

    Anyway, great discussion! I have to give props to everyone on here as this is the best "God" thread I've ever seen!

    Karla
    Karla - this is the problem with this discussion. The lack of the ability to prove either for or against. Also, just for the record it is impossible to actually prove something does not exist. However, it is easy to assume that something does not based on a lack of physical evidence. My point is that people who claim evidence seem unable to produce it when put on the spot. As in physical evidence not someone told me or a face in a piece of toast I imagined. We are human and we see patterns in things and often believe in unexplainable things. There is probably a good reason that this mental problem has survived and there are certainly many scientists who have reasons for this behavior.

    Four of the 10 commandments are about not believing in another god - that is selfish and teaches nothing if I have ever seen it. It would seem if you were going to write 10 things that were really important to pass onto someone, to really teach them the ways, 40% would not be about you.

    In response to what does it all matter if there is no god - that is clearly where we are different. Seriously? Everyday is a learning and growing experience why would I want to end that? I know I am being good because I would do unto others as I would want done to me. Yes, there is something similar in the bible but it was also said by the Egyptians before the bible was written. This is logical. These are moral values and you do not need a bible to achieve them.

    What is good and evil? Who knows as we are taught to believe things growing up that do not make sense and are sometimes later proven false. I don't have all of the answers, neither do you, and the bible definitely does not.

    I agree though, this is a good thread on god one of the longer ones I have seen - but I am afraid we are not learning from this. The ultra religions will not be swayed because they only need blind faith to keep them going. No facts or lack of will sway an individual who believes even with lack of facts or self fulfilling prophecies that they have experienced.
  9. #909  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    My goal was to point out that your view illustrates a contradiction. Not that you contradicted yourself.
    But sudoer and I have done nothing but back our statements using scripture.
    The contradiction lies in those who twist the scriptures believing it somehow gets them a 'shoe in'.
    It makes absolutely no sense to tell someone their 'saved' when they are obviously blatantly living contrary to faith, especially when it doesn't harmonize with scripture.

    It's not up to us to judge, but we surely can recognize someone with true faith:
    Matthew 7:16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
    Matthew 7:17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
    Matthew 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    Matthew 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

    This kinda lends to the 'Logic' debate stated in the other thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I don't lump, you made it pretty clear..... or did I misread? Come on Berd, make a stand man! Coke or Pepsi!
    Last edited by berdinkerdickle; 02/26/2010 at 01:12 AM. Reason: :o sorry
    Just call me Berd.
  10.    #910  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Your asking me to 'take a stand'?
    I think he's thinking Catholicism vs Protestantism are somehow different churches. They're the same church, worshiping the same God. The difference between Catholics and any denomination is they think we made some mistakes which they each have corrected. We assert the "men in the Church" needed (can even drop the past tense here) to reform, but that splitting the one Church established by Christ was (is) not the way to do this.

    So we (Catholics) don't see it as Coke bis Pepsi, but more like Sprint and Boost Mobile.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #911  
    LOL at Sprint vs. BoostMobile!
  12. #912  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I think he's thinking Catholicism vs Protestantism are somehow different churches. They're the same church, worshiping the same God. The difference between Catholics and any denomination is they think we made some mistakes which they each have corrected. We assert the "men in the Church" needed (can even drop the past tense here) to reform, but that splitting the one Church established by Christ was (is) not the way to do this.

    So we don't see it as Coke bis Pepsi, but more like Sprint and Boost Mobile.
    If we do end up in a 'camp' I sure hope we get to keep our PDAs. I want access to P|C
    Just call me Berd.
  13. #913  
    @donovan34 -

    I agree with your first statement. Nothing can really be solved in an internet discussion, but that's why it's just a discussion; sharing points and opinions...even if we never see eye-to-eye.

    As for your second statement about evidence, and the lack there of, it doesn't always have to be physical evidence that you can touch. There is plenty of evidence in my life which have built patterns (to use your word) for me. There's just too much that's happened for me to assume there isn't a Creator who's orchestrated these various experiences in my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    There is probably a good reason that this mental problem has survived and there are certainly many scientists who have reasons for this behavior.
    Are you saying that all believers have mental issues? I really hope that's not what you're implying since that's a very ignorant (in the true sense of the word) thing to say.

    As for your comments on the 10 commandments being selfish, there is only ONE God. That one God created everything, therefore, He's perfectly justified to set the rules as He sees fit. Would you be happy if someone else was getting attention and credit for something you did? I doubt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Seriously? Everyday is a learning and growing experience why would I want to end that? I know I am being good because I would do unto others as I would want done to me. Yes, there is something similar in the bible but it was also said by the Egyptians before the bible was written. This is logical. These are moral values and you do not need a bible to achieve them.

    What is good and evil? Who knows as we are taught to believe things growing up that do not make sense and are sometimes later proven false. I don't have all of the answers, neither do you, and the bible definitely does not.
    You say to be good is logical. What is logical? Being good? Where does this "logical goodness" come from? What if I think it's logical to murder people for a specific reason? Who are you to tell me it's wrong? Because it's not logical? On who's authority? It's a circular argument. Right and wrong are defined by God. Not man.

    The Bible most definitely has the answers. It tells us to live as Christ lived. If we all did that, then the world would be a wonderful place!

    As for your statement that no-one is learning from this...I disagree. This is a healthy debate. I like reading opinions and sharing my own. I think it helps us to learn from each other; even if our minds are never changed.

    Karla
  14. #914  
    [QUOTE=sudoer;2248874]Welcome to the discussion. It's refreshing to hear your viewpoints. I don't know that I'd say that religion is supposed to fill in the holes that science can't (or at least can't right now). I believe if God is real, there should be one religion that does some of this while also not contradicting science.

    Best of luck on that one as scientist are generally atheist (also most of our friends across the pond, but not south of there - we are in a holy war with them)



    In reference to persecuted scientists -
    I can be helped if we discuss some examples. Do you care to elaborate or your top one (or three) example(s)?
    Short list:
    Copernicus
    Galileo
    Giordano Bruno
    Abdus Salam
    Tycho Brahe
    Johannes Kepler
    Isaac Newton - had to hide his true belief (atheist) until he was on his death bed for fear of persecution.
    Makes me wonder how many other scientist kept their mouth shut to avoid death. I know I would, I like to live myself.


    What if each of our versions of God agreed? Would that prove anything (or would there just be more than one of us that are deluded)? Again, the selection criteria for a religion is simple to me: if one exists that has not yet proven itself wrong, I can comfortably "take it on faith" that it describes this unknown God.
    I am afraid I am unable to take much of anything on faith alone. Not that I have been burned by this in the past it just is not logical to me.

    The return according to Jesus -
    Please provide a reference or more details. (If you are right, then I can move onto "other religions".)
    In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus answered two questions that His disciples had asked Him:
    When would the Temple be destroyed? and
    What is the sign people should expect that will herald the end of the world and the return of Christ?
    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.'' (Matthew 24:34)
    "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.'' (Mark 13:30)
    "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.'' (Luke 21:32)

    Reading suggestions -
    Any suggestions?
    Anything by Ayn Rand (Atheist)
    The Blind Watchmaker
    The God Delusion
    The End of Faith
    God is Not Great
    The Portable Atheist (Many authors in this one from Einstein to Bertrand Russel)
    Breaking the Spell

    In reference to the bloody spread of religion -
    References?
    Spanish Inquisition
    The Crusades


    Whew - that is a lot.
    I am going to add this also and i think this is more than just opinion - religion is of the least tolerant and potentially most racist form of accepted social behavior ever. For example - if you don't believe my religion you are going to hell. That does not seem right.
    Last edited by donovan34; 02/25/2010 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Sudoer - I don't know how to break up the stufflike you did so not so clear. Let me know if you need more clarification on wh
  15. #915  
    Karla - We all have mental issues, sorry. I am starting to understand why some people want to believe the bible - it is a good fantasy.
    Also, if there is only one god then why is it so important to say it in 4 of the 10 commandments
  16.    #916  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    In reference to persecuted scientists -
    Short list:
    ...
    Copernicus
    Galileo
    Giordano Bruno
    Abdus Salam
    Tycho Brahe
    Johannes Kepler
    Isaac Newton - had to hide his true belief (atheist) until he was on his death bed for fear of persecution.
    I appreciate the list. I know a descendant of Johannes Kepler. Maybe if I'm lucky, he can tell me a "family story" or two!

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Whew - that is a lot.
    I am going to add this also and i think this is more than just opinion - religion is of the least tolerant and potentially most racist form of accepted social behavior ever. For example - if you don't believe my religion you are going to hell. That does not seem right.
    I think the term you may have been searching for is "religious bigotry".
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  17. #917  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34
    In reference to the bloody spread of religion -
    References?
    Spanish Inquisition
    The Crusades
    People are always quick to reference the Crusades and how Christians were killing people, however, they fail to include the fact that it was muslims trying to invade France and then Spain, which was dominated by Christians at the time. The Christians were only fighting back to reclaim control of their land!
  18. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #918  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I know I am being good because I would do unto others as I would want done to me.
    Does "being good" include heaping scorn on people that you disagree with? I say that, because judging from your posts, your attitude seems to have some hostility to it. Of course these things are hard to judge on the internet, so if you say otherwise I will accept that.

    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    I agree though, this is a good thread on god one of the longer ones I have seen - but I am afraid we are not learning from this. The ultra religions will not be swayed because they only need blind faith to keep them going. No facts or lack of will sway an individual who believes even with lack of facts or self fulfilling prophecies that they have experienced.
    Well, you really can't say "we" aren't learning from this--only whether you are or are not. I've learned a variety of things from reading this thread.

    Also, based on your couple of posts here, it seems you are a bit eager to define what you call "ultra religions" and those with "blind faith." I doubt that you have grounds to really make that judgment in most cases. In short--it might be that you can't learn anything here, because you've already made up your mind about people that hold religious views, and if you have, I suggest that you won't likely be able to participate in a constructive way. As you can see--various religious believers here are engaging in non-judgmental explanations of what they believe and why, and you can learn a lot about them at least and their reasoning if you care to listen.

    Best of luck,

    KAM
  19.    #919  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    In reference to the bloody spread of religion -
    References?
    Spanish Inquisition
    The Crusades
    Neither of these were in early Christianity. Perhaps you can play "Jeapordy" and give me a new question that applies to the above answer. (thanks)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #920  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Karla - We all have mental issues, sorry. I am starting to understand why some people want to believe the bible - it is a good fantasy.
    Also, if there is only one god then why is it so important to say it in 4 of the 10 commandments
    To answer your commandments question, I believe these are the ones you're referring to:

    1. You shall have no other gods before me
    2. You shall not make for yourself an idol
    3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
    4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy

    The fact that there is only one God IS the reason 4 of the commandments are about Him. He is a very jealous God, and desires that ALL of His creation love him.

Posting Permissions