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  1. Micael's Avatar
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    #881  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    So here is where, if I were a religious man, which I am not, I would still take issue with your statement, because is contradicts the law I personally live by: common sense.

    You said: "If you accept Christ as your saviour, you're in. Period."

    That's a very concrete statement -- you ended it by writing out the word "period".

    So, correct me if my simplistic reasoning has missed something. I am not a christian nor have I ever accepted "Christ as my saviour". If I live a good life: honest worker, loving husband and father, contribute to my community, considerate of my neighbor, etc. etc. I will burn in hell for all eternity (or something similar). Person A has genuinely accepted Christ as his saviour, say, as an 18 year old, yet his life gradually spirals out of control. He strays from the teachings of the church (as we all do on occasion), preys on the sensibilities and charity of other Christians, lies, steals, and commits multiple premeditated murders before being caught and jailed. Person A, by your very definitive statement, will bask in the glory of heaven? Can this be true?

    I've never been able to wrap my mind around a concept as backwards as this, yet you seem very certain of what happens to those who accept Christ, period. Because I have not "lived my life in isolation", I'm fully aware of your version of Christ and I do not accept it. Yet, if I am the man I described, and for the purposes of this question, let's assume I am, I will burn in hell forever, correct? Can you clarify please?
    I think you're confusing me for a Christian. I was responding to another person's question, and I was offering up my understanding of the fundamentalist protestant view.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  2. Micael's Avatar
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    #882  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I think sudoer posted earlier that many Protestant religions teach this.
    (Accept Jesus as your personal savior and it's a lock.)
    If I understood him correctly, Catholics don't beleive this.

    I agree with you.
    If one's life belies the claim of faith, their faith is dead.
    So, if I'm a sinner and I come to Christ, I'm still measured based on my sins? What happened to the whole Christ died for all of our sins thing? You're describing quite a contradiction.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  3. #883  
    Wow - I am completely baffled every time I listen to someone who claims that the existence is solid evidence. I think the 'solid' evidence is pretty lacking based on the amount of different religions in existence today let alone the ones that are now extinct (Greek, Horus, etc.) What on earth makes you think you are right about it this time? I assure you your religion is not the first by a long shot. It felt so right when the people were worshiping Zues. It felt so right to perform human sacrifices to appease the gods a few centuries ago. Witch trials - I can go on and on to the ridiculousness of it all. People were killed by the religious for saying the sun revolved around the earth. Science has historically been attacked by the religious slowing our ability to move forward and improve life. To me religion always appears to be more of a defensive position against everything else. If there is something that is not understood it is because god did it and we should not even try to figure it out - we are done here folks * brushes hands off*. However, the fact is that we cannot stop there we need to ask the questions. If intelligent design is too complex to have just happened then whatever made it is also complex and therefore who made god? Taboo question right.

    I feel sorry for you, your friends, and your family that your primary focus is in pleasing an imaginary figure and not them. This is it people so enjoy it and quit thinking about the next step because there is probably not one. Why are you so afraid of that fact? What evidence (and I mean evidence not the bible says so) do you have that you will live beyond your death?

    Your version of what god is is different that the guy sitting next to you due to a complete lack of evidence to his existence. Wasn't Jesus supposed to come back before the next generation died? It has been a few thousand years and no return - guess what, there is no one to come back and you are wasting your time. I have a life to live and I don't plan on worrying about pleasing something that I cannot logically make sense of. If I am wrong, and I treat people fair, donate to causes, take care of my family, and I am rejected from this fantasy heaven then I really don't want that anyway. Not only is your god a selfish god he is also petty and has some pretty human emotional traits.

    Read something from people who are not blinded by faith and you may actually learn something useful. You speak of evidence but faith takes no evidence right?

    Sorry for the rant but religion is the most devastating thing that has ever occurred and Christianity was initially spread by the sword so don't forget that. Also, priest are pedophiles but I guess that was forgotten in the 10 commandments so it is probably okay.

    Religion will cause the end of the world before anything else will probably through war or stupidity.
  4. Micael's Avatar
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    #884  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Ok, but help me out here. If I do live the good life, yet cannot accept Christ as my saviour, am I living the sweet afterlife or smoldering forever? I need to know.
    Man, ain't that the million dollar question!? You'll get many different answers.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #885  
    Quote Originally Posted by donovan34 View Post
    Wow - I am completely baffled every time I listen to someone who claims that the existence is solid evidence. I think the 'solid' evidence is pretty lacking based on the amount of different religions in existence today let alone the ones that are now extinct (Greek, Horus, etc.) What on earth makes you think you are right about it this time? I assure you your religion is not the first by a long shot. It felt so right when the people were worshiping Zues. It felt so right to perform human sacrifices to appease the gods a few centuries ago. Witch trials - I can go on and on to the ridiculousness of it all. People were killed by the religious for saying the sun revolved around the earth. Science has historically been attacked by the religious slowing our ability to move forward and improve life. To me religion always appears to be more of a defensive position against everything else. If there is something that is not understood it is because god did it and we should not even try to figure it out - we are done here folks * brushes hands off*. However, the fact is that we cannot stop there we need to ask the questions. If intelligent design is too complex to have just happened then whatever made it is also complex and therefore who made god? Taboo question right.

    I feel sorry for you, your friends, and your family that your primary focus is in pleasing an imaginary figure and not them. This is it people so enjoy it and quit thinking about the next step because there is probably not one. Why are you so afraid of that fact? What evidence (and I mean evidence not the bible says so) do you have that you will live beyond your death?

    Your version of what god is is different that the guy sitting next to you due to a complete lack of evidence to his existence. Wasn't Jesus supposed to come back before the next generation died? It has been a few thousand years and no return - guess what, there is no one to come back and you are wasting your time. I have a life to live and I don't plan on worrying about pleasing something that I cannot logically make sense of. If I am wrong, and I treat people fair, donate to causes, take care of my family, and I am rejected from this fantasy heaven then I really don't want that anyway. Not only is your god a selfish god he is also petty and has some pretty human emotional traits.

    Read something from people who are not blinded by faith and you may actually learn something useful. You speak of evidence but faith takes no evidence right?

    Sorry for the rant but religion is the most devastating thing that has ever occurred and Christianity was initially spread by the sword so don't forget that. Also, priest are pedophiles but I guess that was forgotten in the 10 commandments so it is probably okay.

    Religion will cause the end of the world before anything else will probably through war or stupidity.
    Hi donovan34! You used a bunch of "you" and "your" in your post but I don't know who you were directing your message to. Maybe it was to everyone in general?

    Other than that, I agree with much of what you said. But please, understand the distinction between "belief in the existence of God" and "man made religion". The horrors you detail are from the later.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. #886  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    So, if I'm a sinner and I come to Christ, I'm still measured based on my sins? What happened to the whole Christ died for all of our sins thing? You're describing quite a contradiction.
    Matthew 3:8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

    Someone can make the claim they have faith.
    Do their works demonstrate that?

    Acts 20:24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me--the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.

    Despite what others believe, the Bible doesn't support; 'Once Saved - Always Saved.'

    Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
    Just call me Berd.
  7. #888  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I think you're confusing me for a Christian. I was responding to another person's question, and I was offering up my understanding of the fundamentalist protestant view.
    Woops. Ok, well I hope someone can shed some light on this. It's one of the many parts of this discussion that is a sticking point for me -- a deal breaker.
  8. #889  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Hi donovan34! You used a bunch of "you" and "your" in your post but I don't know who you were directing your message to. Maybe it was to everyone in general?

    Other than that, I agree with much of what you said. But please, understand the distinction between "belief in the existence of God" and "man made religion". The horrors you detail are from the later.
    I believe all religions and gods are man made.
    My comment is directed at anyone who is religious and believes in things that cannot be proven. Additionally, anyone who uses gaps in science to place their evidence of something else being the cause. This is not evidence it is just pointing out science has more work to do to get the actual answer. This has happened thousands of times and soon there will be no where for god to hide.
  9. #890  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Woops. Ok, well I hope someone can shed some light on this. It's one of the many parts of this discussion that is a sticking point for me -- a deal breaker.
    Could you please repeat your question.

    Although, I'm supposed to be working on dbd's Noah question.
    I do have a reply, I just want to get it put together properly to give him a complete answer.
    Just call me Berd.
  10. #891  
    Karla, I would like specific examples of science proving gods existence, as I have been patiently waiting for this information since I was 12. I have a feeling that scientific conclusion would be ground-breaking, stop-the-presses, international news -- immediately -- upon the very moment of discovery. Are you referring to the theory of intelligent design? Can you be more specific?
    I would suggest you watch a video called "The Priviledged Planet". It's chock full of scientists and researchers talking about our planet, it's location within the galaxy, etc. It's extremely interesting. I think you can find it on YouTube pretty easily.

    The information you want is out there, but you have to work a little to find it. The ground-breaking information is available, but today's society and media are extremely one-sided towards evolution, etc. As such, they aren't very interested in broadcasting news that's contrary to their agenda.

    A perfect example is the whole global warming/climate change debacle. I've never believed that man is the sole cause of changes in our climate. When I was getting my meteorology degree, I learned that all of my professors doubted climate change. Even recently, information's come out that the data "proving" climate change has been made up and doctored, but several media outlets still talk about it as if it's 100% fact.

    Anyway, this thread isn't about global warming, so I digress. My point is...information is available. There are lots of resources just waiting to be looked up.

    Like I said, watch the Priviledged Planet and see if that answers any of your questions.

    Thanks,
    Karla
    Last edited by soccerbudd; 02/25/2010 at 01:45 PM.
  11. #892  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Although, I'm supposed to be working on dbd's Noah question.
    I do have a reply, I just want to get it put together properly to give him a complete answer.
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #893  
    Related but different argument, and the difference is context. I was talking about a sinner that repented and accepted Christ. He's saved no matter what his sins were. You're talking about walking the walk etc, after you're saved.

    What if it's a short walk? Here we go with the Adolf the fuhrer example... if his last act was to repent and accept Christ (and of course, I mean sincerely repents), is he saved?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #894  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I also like to let my imagination run.

    If we were to think of possible life on other planets, we can really open this discussion up to just about anywhere we want to take it. Not saying they aren't out there. Just think it's fun thinking.

    Think about this;
    Where is the end of the universe? After that, what is out there? How far does the nothing past the edge of our universe go?
    How big are we? How small are we?
    Is there people so small that we couldn't see them with the most powerful microscope? Are there people so big that they can't see us even with the most powerful microscope?

    I remember way back when my buddy and I were smoking banana peels arguing whether trees dream or not?

    haha These are things I also thought about! All except if plants dream! Maybe I need to try some banana peels!
    It is sooo hard to imagine what is beyond our universe, I envision our universe to be rounded like the earth with a bunch of other universes... But what are they in and where does that end? What if we are sooo tiny that we are actually a DNA element ourselves!? Then what are we making up? For the sake of sticking with religion, This would be a very fun thread to start, if anyone want to make it up I'd have fun following along with this one!
  14. #895  
    Well its nice to see a new face hear. Unfortunately we are now starting to look outnumbered! OK I give, we lost! haha JK
    I know its not "us" vs "them" But we look forward to any insight one has to bring!

    I agree with you on part of this point, I feel religion and scientists and archeologists really need to start working together more and making their actions more publicly present, to be followed (If anyone knows of any they could reference that would be great!). I would love to see a mythbuster like show on religion with a neutral focus. My fears is that the church would not like to do this sort of stuff publicly bc if it turns out against them it would create more work and back peddling for them (in some cases)... just a thought..
    I have not seen this film you are refering to, but I have read a few things on the links of the earths miracles to a God but they just point out that things "work too good" for it to be a coincedence... I disagree... It just happens that our genetic makeup and what we evolved from thrives on the elements of our planet. We dont know what life form is under the surface of other planets? We dont know if there is interplanetary life, that thrives on a completely different set of elements making "our miracles" just a coincidence...
    So to bring this back to God... What happens if and when we find life on other planets? Are the "aliens" going to believe in a god, will they tink our believes are foolish? Is there a different God for each planetary "being"? How is this find going to effect the bible? There is no mention of interplanetary life in the bible, Id be curious on how the church would handle this phenomenon. Would God love the aliens as much as he loves us, would it be an equal love or them more?
    Sudoer mentioned God only present himself to things he wants to know of his existence... So where do the animals go when they die? Is the only options after death Heaven or Hell?

    I hope my questions do not start annoying... I will just be a philosopher no answers just questions!
    Great questions. I often wonder about aliens. Can someone be a Christian AND believe in aliens? I think "yes". I remember a great quote from the movie Contact where someone says, "It seems like an awful waste of space", referring to humans being the only souls in the universe. As for God loving aliens, He most definitely would as they would be a part of His overall Creation. I would also expect them to be humanoid since the Bible says God made man in His image.

    Anyway, the Bible does not say whether aliens exist or not. Just because they aren't mentioned, doesn't mean they don't exist; that would be an argument from silence.

    The same goes for animals after they die. The Bible doesn't mention the afterlife from an animal's perspective. It does say an animal will be held accountable for the blood they shed, so it implies they have a soul and may face some sort of judgement. We don't really know.

    However, in the grand scheme of things, talking about animals and aliens aren't important when compared to the state of our souls. We need to focus on what WE'RE going to do; follow Christ or not. The Bible is VERY clear on that point.

    Karla
  15.    #896  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    With all due respect, sudoer, but your friend isn't 'thinking'. You either are saved based on faith, or you're not. It can't be nuanced. The second you nuance it, it completely wipes away the 'salvation by faith'. As soon is you diverge, it's salvation by works. There's no gray area here.
    For me it's not difficult at all. James 2:24

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    It sounds to me that you are much more comfortable with the works idea vs. the faith one.
    Nope! Works would be futile without the the saving power of Jesus Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    I don't believe God reveals himself selectively to individuals. I believe His gift to all of us is logic and reason, and it's up to us to apply those gifts and come to our own realizations.
    Yep, I didn't really mean to say anything like this (or at least in a general/public way). He clearly revealed himself to the Apostles and Paul. I believe he does teach us how to discern the will of the Holy Spirit (especially when we read his Word).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  16. #897  
    Quote Originally Posted by soccerbudd View Post
    A perfect example is the whole global warming/climate change debacle. I've never believe that man is the sole cause changes in our climate. When I was getting my meteorology degree, I learned that all of my professors doubted climate change. Even recently, information that the data "proving" climate change has been made up and doctored, but several media outlets still talk about it as if it's 100% fact.

    Anyway, this thread isn't about global warming, so I digress.
    A good thing too, since you're misinformed about the alleged "doctoring" of data. But then the vast majority of climatologists are probably all wrong or lying, right?
  17. #899  
    I know God isnt subject to time but when did Adam and Eve exist?
  18. #900  
    @donovan34 - You asked why we're afraid that there's probably not another step in life. How do you know there's not another step? You need proof that God exists, well I need proof that he doesn't exist. With the types of miracles I've witnessed and the different experiences in my life, there is no doubt that God exists. So like you, I need proof that you're right. Do you have proof that my soul won't continue to live beyond death?

    What is the complete lack of evidence you are referring to? What do you need to see, know, hear, feel to know that God is real?

    As for Jesus, where are you getting the idea that Jesus was supposed to come back before the next generation died? What book are you quoting, because the Bible doesn't say when Jesus will return. In fact it says not even the angels know the hour of Jesus's return.

    I'm glad you're endeavoring to be a good person, but for what? If there's no God, then why does any of it matter? How do you know you're even being good? What is the basis for good and evil?

    I'd actually like to know your answers to these questions, because they'll help me understand your reasons.

    As for God being selfish, quite the contrary. While the Bible often says that God is a jealous God, He has every right to be since He created us!

    Anyway, great discussion! I have to give props to everyone on here as this is the best "God" thread I've ever seen!

    Karla
    Last edited by soccerbudd; 02/25/2010 at 02:14 PM.

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