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  1.    #841  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    And if we are in hell how would we know that it is not Satan presenting a hoax to further damn you for not accepting him!?
    Interesting question!
    I might be inclined to say it might be a reason to consider that a "temporary hell" might be illogical. (I already believe hell is eternal, but your question is making me think how other "alternative hells" might stand up to logic tests.) thanks!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  2.    #842  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Ok so words of the bible explained evil in humans...
    What about the bad doings of nature? Tsunami's, earthquakes, volcano's, floods, hurricanes... etc, etc....?
    I'm still "catching up" a bit on both your question and the various responses. In general I view life on Earth as a preparation for our lives in Heaven. People who suffer on Earth are more closely aligned to the "undeserved" suffering that Jesus took on for the sins of all mankind. There are several references to a concept of "uniting" your suffering with that of Christ. Christ allows us to enter into this "covenant" with him so that God sees us as his adopted brothers. I guess the more you can identify with Jesus' suffering, the better prepared you will be to enjoy heaven.

    The other thing that really nails this idea for me is what Jesus says in the 8 beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-10):
    1. Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
    2. Blessed are the meek: for they shall possess the land. (Verse 4)
    3. Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
    4. Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
    5. Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
    6. Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
    7. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
    8. Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)

    These beatitudes really convince me that God has a special place in Heaven for all who suffer on Earth in one way or another. I see the blue part as how God addresses those who did not have a chance to understand his Word.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3. #843  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Didn't you guys basically say that the word "time" is not in God's vocabulary? That he is not constrained by it? And if Jesus had "not yet come" and brought back what Adam had lost, why didn't God arrange to have that done?
    If he is almighty, why didn't he get things finished the first time he cleansed the Earth?
    I said he wasn't constrained by time.
    I didn't say the word wasn't in his vocabulary.

    However;
    Time, as in; When is the best time to act in behalf of man and angel (all creation).
    God knows when it's the best time to act, for all involved.
    Again, using the insight and wisdom of a parent deciding something for their child.... When and how should I handle this bad kid of mine and still benefit all my children.

    I will elaborate more on why he did what he did back in Noah's day, and why he waited to sending Jesus, later this eve.
    Briefly, it had to do again with timing.
    I'll find the scripture.. But the people had to be at a point where they were ready for the messiah.

    (I hope you don't think i'm mocking your opinions, i'm just trying to understand all this.)
    I don't get the feeling you are trying to make a mockery of this discussion at all.
    I really appreciate you honest questions.
    Just call me Berd.
  4. #844  
    Thanks, Berd.
  5. #845  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    If I understand Protestant Christianity, and please correct me, but the answer basically boils down to this:

    If you accept Christ as your saviour, you're in. Period.

    If someone reveals to you the story of Christ, and you reject or ignore it, or choose a different path; you're off to the seven gates for eternity to listen to unending Barry Manilow songs.

    If you've never heard the story of Christ.... somehow you've lived in isolation and cut off from his story, but you live your life aligned with its principles, then you will be judged and might get in to Heaven. An alternative to this that I've heard is that you go to Hell first, Christ reveals himself to you there, and if you accept you're off to fluff clouds, sunny skies, and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. (this version was interesting because in fact there is no "time" in Hell, so in effect, all souls were already there that were going to be there at the time of the cruxifiction. Christ goes down and reveals himself there and loads up the bus for heaven, before going back to earth to show himself to his apostles.... the trip is mentioned in the creed).

    For me, it's all conceptualizing life after death. I personally believe that there is such a thing, and it's not related to man made religion, but is a part of what God created.
    So here is where, if I were a religious man, which I am not, I would still take issue with your statement, because is contradicts the law I personally live by: common sense.

    You said: "If you accept Christ as your saviour, you're in. Period."

    That's a very concrete statement -- you ended it by writing out the word "period".

    So, correct me if my simplistic reasoning has missed something. I am not a christian nor have I ever accepted "Christ as my saviour". If I live a good life: honest worker, loving husband and father, contribute to my community, considerate of my neighbor, etc. etc. I will burn in hell for all eternity (or something similar). Person A has genuinely accepted Christ as his saviour, say, as an 18 year old, yet his life gradually spirals out of control. He strays from the teachings of the church (as we all do on occasion), preys on the sensibilities and charity of other Christians, lies, steals, and commits multiple premeditated murders before being caught and jailed. Person A, by your very definitive statement, will bask in the glory of heaven? Can this be true?

    I've never been able to wrap my mind around a concept as backwards as this, yet you seem very certain of what happens to those who accept Christ, period. Because I have not "lived my life in isolation", I'm fully aware of your version of Christ and I do not accept it. Yet, if I am the man I described, and for the purposes of this question, let's assume I am, I will burn in hell forever, correct? Can you clarify please?
  6. #846  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    sevenlkl@yahoo.com - I would advise that you change your user name to something that isn't an e-mail address. The SPAM bots are eating it as we speak.
    Can't seem to find a way to change it. I'd like to though.
  7.    #847  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    So, correct me if my simplistic reasoning has missed something.
    Not all Christians are the same. There are 38,000 denominations each with different beliefs. Maybe we need a "rainbow chart" showing all the possibilities (like in the "income vs religion" thread). God can show mercy. Remember the beatitudes I posted earlier?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  8.    #848  
    Quote Originally Posted by sevenlkl@yahoo.com View Post
    Can't seem to find a way to change it. I'd like to though.
    Any of the admins can change it for you. Just email Dieter and he should be able to fix it within a few days for you.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #849  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    So here is where, if I were a religious man, which I am not, I would still take issue with your statement, because is contradicts the law I personally live by: common sense.

    You said: "If you accept Christ as your saviour, you're in. Period."

    That's a very concrete statement -- you ended it by writing out the word "period".

    So, correct me if my simplistic reasoning has missed something. I am not a christian nor have I ever accepted "Christ as my saviour". If I live a good life: honest worker, loving husband and father, contribute to my community, considerate of my neighbor, etc. etc. I will burn in hell for all eternity (or something similar). Person A has genuinely accepted Christ as his saviour, say, as an 18 year old, yet his life gradually spirals out of control. He strays from the teachings of the church (as we all do on occasion), preys on the sensibilities and charity of other Christians, lies, steals, and commits multiple premeditated murders before being caught and jailed. Person A, by your very definitive statement, will bask in the glory of heaven? Can this be true?

    I've never been able to wrap my mind around a concept as backwards as this, yet you seem very certain of what happens to those who accept Christ, period. Because I have not "lived my life in isolation", I'm fully aware of your version of Christ and I do not accept it. Yet, if I am the man I described, and for the purposes of this question, let's assume I am, I will burn in hell forever, correct? Can you clarify please?
    I think sudoer posted earlier that many Protestant religions teach this.
    (Accept Jesus as your personal savior and it's a lock.)
    If I understood him correctly, Catholics don't beleive this.

    I agree with you.
    If one's life belies the claim of faith, their faith is dead.
    Just call me Berd.
  10.    #850  
    Here's an article that lists some of the differences between my Catholic and Protestant churches. While it's written to a Catholic (and biased in that direction), it does list a lot of Scripture passages to support what they say.

    it also gives (a perhaps not "perfect") answer to the "Why does evil exist" question.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  11. #851  
    Quote Originally Posted by sevenlkl@yahoo.com View Post
    Can't seem to find a way to change it. I'd like to though.
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Any of the admins can change it for you. Just email Dieter and he should be able to fix it within a few days for you.
    ask Ronbo:
    http://discussion.treocentral.com/me...ronbo2000.html
    Just call me Berd.
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    #852  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Just Googled the guy and I think getting a life is actually his whole point.

    "THERE'S PROBABLY NO GOD. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."
    Well, if you want to look at religion purely pragmatically, which I don't recommend, the religious actually tend to have more enjoyable lives. They are apparently happier, live longer, have stronger marriages and are more charitable on average.

    Why Religion Matters Even More: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability
  13.    #853  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, if you want to look at religion purely pragmatically, which I don't recommend, the religious actually tend to have more enjoyable lives. They are apparently happier, live longer, have stronger marriages and are more charitable on average.

    Why Religion Matters Even More: The Impact of Religious Practice on Social Stability
    The link that someone posted near the beginning of this thread (the one that said we might be biologically hardwired to invent a God) pretty much said the same thing about religious groups being more stable.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #854  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    Well, if you want to look at religion purely pragmatically, which I don't recommend, the religious actually tend to have more enjoyable lives. They are apparently happier, live longer, have stronger marriages and are more charitable on average.
    I firmly believe this to be true. As a cynic, skeptic, etc., I envy the religious masses who, regardless of whats happening at the time, possess the ability to embrace messages such as "it's all in gods plan". Some might say this is akin to "ignorance is bliss", I prefer to think of it as "acceptance is soothing".
  15. #855  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I think sudoer posted earlier that many Protestant religions teach this.
    (Accept Jesus as your personal savior and it's a lock.)
    If I understood him correctly, Catholics don't beleive this.

    I agree with you.
    If one's life belies the claim of faith, their faith is dead.
    Ok, but help me out here. If I do live the good life, yet cannot accept Christ as my saviour, am I living the sweet afterlife or smoldering forever? I need to know.
  16. groovy's Avatar
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    #856  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The link that someone posted near the beginning of this thread (the one that said we might be biologically hardwired to invent a God) pretty much said the same thing about religious groups being more stable.
    Ah, must have missed that one. Pretty funny theory though since it means that, on one hand, there are those who argue humans adapted religion as an evolutionary protection for the species and, on the other hand, there are those who argue religion is a huge detriment to the species. I have to believe there are many who believe both arguments to be true.
  17. #857  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Ok, but help me out here. If I do live the good life, yet cannot accept Christ as my saviour, am I living the sweet afterlife or smoldering forever? I need to know.
    there will be many good people in hell , and many people you would never expect in heaven !
    ĦṔ-Ḷṫ-Ŧḯη
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  18. #858  
    There were those who really did some bad things mentioned in the Bible. And when they were made aware of their error, they repented. God forgave them.
    One particularly is David. He slept with one of his soldiers wife. Got her pregnant. And when he thought he might be found out, had the soldier killed. God severely reproved him, he repented, and God forgave.
    Someone else as an example was Manasseh.

    God isn't looking to condemn people.
    He looks for every opportunity to extend mercy.

    Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
    Just call me Berd.
  19. #859  
    An interesting quote from an interview with Dennis Miller in 2003:

    INTERVIEWER: Some of his critics say Bush is too vocal about his religious beliefs.

    MILLER: In this messed up world, I like seeing my President pray. I don’t think a person can get answers out of books anymore. This is an infinitely complex world and at some point one has to have faith in one’s religion. I find it endearing that President Bush prays to God and that he’s not an agnostic or an atheist. I’m glad there’s someone higher that he has to answer to.
  20. #860  
    I will have more time tomorrow.

    We can rest assured that God will do what is right.

    Here are a couple more scriptures:
    (It's also good to read verses in their context)

    Job 34:10 "So listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do evil, from the Almighty to do wrong.
    Job 34:11 He repays a man for what he has done; he brings upon him what his conduct deserves.
    Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do wrong, that the Almighty would pervert justice.

    Here, the apostle Paul (formally Saul) who was a persecutor of Christians was given a break due to his ignorance.
    (some Christian were killed because he had them arrested - God forgave him)

    Start reading here thru verse 17.
    1 Timothy 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service.
    1 Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
    http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-14.htm
    http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-15.htm
    http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-16.htm
    http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-17.htm

    I know dbd, I still haven't got to why didn't God 'finish the job' in Noah's day. I haven't forgotten.
    Last edited by berdinkerdickle; 02/25/2010 at 01:54 AM.
    Just call me Berd.

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