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  1. #801  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    .......The apostle Paul quotes the prophet Joel saying "Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved." Again, Abraham did not know the name of Jesus but believed God would provide and that belief was accepted by God.
    You thought that would answer the question regarding people who don't have the mental ability to even think for themselves enough to get through each and every day without adult assistance?

    (Whew! That was almost a run-on sentence.)
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/24/2010 at 05:20 AM.
  2.    #802  
    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    If God were "dead" then God could not perform the resurrection. But enough of that.
    God is three persons. Only one of them became became alive as we know it. Only that one was capable of dying in any form. This is the 3rd time I've had to answer this question for you. I respect your question because "boundary" conditions often allow additional insight to be obtained. We simply do not know how God can achieve certain things. I take him at his word that these things are possible. If the following from your profile is true:
    Location: Purgatory
    then you will get a chance to ask the man Himself your clarifying questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Okay... so much for you believing in "unlimited power" or God being omnipotent.
    My belief remains unchanged. You do not have the power to change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    So away from suicide questions, what do you believe Gods power to be?
    My initial concern any time someone brings up suicide is that they might be thinking of committing that act. That's why the second part of my initial answer was phrased the way it was. I'm very happy that you asked as this as part of a logic strategy and not anything more.

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    Obviously, we have established God's powers are limited. As the Devil also has limited powers.
    I don't believe we established God's powers are limited. You've only established that God might not do illogical things. God has not provided a "test case" that would demonstrate his power either way.

    Would you prefer that His powers be limited? Why?

    When you started your second sentence with "As ..", were you implying some relationship between the Devil's and God's powers? thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by theog View Post
    What do you believe their powers to be?
    To be quite honest with you, I've never found an occasion to think about your question until now. I believe that God is all powerful, that God created the Lucifer as the most powerful angel, that all angels were given free will, that Lucifer chose not to follow God which separated him from God as a consequence. Satan only has power to trick people into doing things, but he seems to have an amazing intellect and highly effective at what he does.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  3.    #803  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre
    ...... If its the truth I feel bad for the millions that were not raised to know of a Jesus, or the mentally disabled and cannot comprehend religion that they will not have the fortune of going to heaven.
    There are a couple of things I want to mention here:
    • doctrine of "invincible ignorance"
    • salvation of those within the church
    • salvation of those outside the church

    A person with mental disabilities such that they cannot reason enough to understand God would be invincibly ignorant. God will not hold such a person accountable for what they do not know. He will look into their hearts and determine if they followed him to the extent that they knew him or tried to find him.

    Any person who might die immediately after baptism would immediately enter what's called the "beatific vision". (This means knowing and seeing God, but not having been reunited with your glorified body. The reunification with our bodies will occur at the end times,)

    Baptized persons beyond the age of reason (typically 7 years old) needs to understand and participate in the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) to confess "mortal" (grave) sins. Venial sins are forgiven by Christ's saving power simply when a person participates in a Mass where the priest and the congregation pray (ask God) for the forgiveness of these sins, A person with sins (but no unconfessed mortal sins) enters a place where they are purified before being able to see God.

    People outside of the Catholic Church are judged by a merciful God according to their beliefs and the disposition in their hearts towards finding/obeying the God they know.

    There is another discussion on this topic over in the Catholic Answers Forums.

    I hope I was able to answer your questions. Have a nice day! -- Bob
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #804  
    God is not really an explanation, only a non-explanation. It is impossible to gain information from non-information so God as an explanation is a dead end. When we have said that the reason for something is that 'god did it that way' there is no way to understand it any further. We just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are. To explain the unknown by god is only to explain how it happened, not why. If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Occam's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.
  5.    #805  
    Riley,
    Thank you for sharing this expanation. I see your view as a "perfectly reasonable" one. It appears to me that you have found the answer to my original question that satisfies you. That's my goal for everyone and I'm happy for you. (thumbsup)
  6. #806  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    This is the closest thing I could find:
    "Matthew 4:24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them."

    Do note that there was a distinction made between those who were demon-possessed, and those who may have had a mental illness.
    Either way, they weren't turned away by Jesus.
    Poor Handicapped people... they thought they were posessed! quite the contrary in today's world people see them as "pure" and "angels" its amazing how times have changed... Anyway, I appreciate the response, however I read this that Jesus is performing miracles and of course he will save them. But going to the point, "that the path to heaven is through him", You need to understand and know of him to go through him... Between the tribes in Africa that no not outside of their own beliefs, that dont even know of Christianity. To the mentally disabled that cant even know of walking or their brain cant even breathe for them, their is no way for them to know of a God or Jesus, and these people have practically no free will to make decisions of their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    A person with mental disabilities such that they cannot reason enough to understand God would be invincibly ignorant. God will not hold such a person accountable for what they do not know. He will look into their hearts and determine if they followed him to the extent that they knew him or tried to find him.
    I think that would be a better explanation for me! (Im not disabled though) But the last sentence "determine if they followed him to the extent that they knew him or tried to find him." that does not answer if they are uncapable of such a thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Any person who might die immediately after baptism would immediately enter what's called the "beatific vision". (This means knowing and seeing God, but not having been reunited with your glorified body. The reunification with our bodies will occur at the end times,)
    This is going to be very disturbing... But if a baby was not baptised and they die, do they go to hell? (that is sooo bad but I have to ask based on that quote, hell is filled w/ babies!!! ) I would think that the least God would do is reincarnate them and give them another chance!?

    Speaking of, reincarnation is sac-relig, right!?
    Is there ever a chance or mention of it being otherwise?
    Last edited by gsonspre; 02/24/2010 at 10:15 AM.
  7.    #807  
    Hi gsonpre,
    I'm mobile right now so I apologize in advance for any typos I might make.

    The Church has not dogmatically fefined what happens in the case of the death of an unbaptized infant. Another similar situation is an aborted fetus where baptism is not possible. Clearly such humans never had a chance to be saved or any chance to do wrong, so they will not be punished in any way. They would have to be treated by our merciful God using the same guidlines as the "invincibly ignorant" (and perhaps deserving much more special consideration).

    If the Church were to say that killed babies automatically go to heaven, it could result in a scenario where people murder babies so the babies will go to heaven. In order to prevent this sort of scandal, the Church wisely concluded that this is up to the mercy of God.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/24/2010 at 12:03 PM. Reason: cleaned up errors from mobile post
  8. #808  
    what a grim topic we turned to! but I am glad that the church recognized it and addressed it!
    and thanks for taking the time to address this on the go!
  9. #809  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    I take him at his word that these things are possible.
    Fair enough.

    My belief remains unchanged. You do not have the power to change this.
    Nor would I try... not my intent.

    Would you prefer that His powers be limited? Why?
    No, I was simply asking your opinion. If seemed as if you limited the powers. I don't care either way to pursue the argument... it will go no place. No one really knows for sure.

    When you started your second sentence with "As ..", were you implying some relationship between the Devil's and God's powers? thanks
    God and Devil do have a relationship when it comes to powers. That part is very obvious. What types of "powers" are not obvious... is using "trickery" a power? Guess we would have to define power...

    To be quite honest with you, I've never found an occasion to think about your question until now. I believe that God is all powerful, that God created the Lucifer as the most powerful angel, that all angels were given free will, that Lucifer chose not to follow God which separated him from God as a consequence. Satan only has power to trick people into doing things, but he seems to have an amazing intellect and highly effective at what he does.
    That was very interesting.

    Thanks for taking time to answer my questions...
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  10. #810  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Poor Handicapped people... they thought they were posessed! quite the contrary in today's world people see them as "pure" and "angels" its amazing how times have changed... Anyway, I appreciate the response, however I read this that Jesus is performing miracles and of course he will save them. But going to the point, "that the path to heaven is through him", You need to understand and know of him to go through him... Between the tribes in Africa that no not outside of their own beliefs, that dont even know of Christianity. To the mentally disabled that cant even know of walking or their brain cant even breathe for them, their is no way for them to know of a God or Jesus, and these people have practically no free will to make decisions of their own.


    I think that would be a better explanation for me! (Im not disabled though) But the last sentence "determine if they followed him to the extent that they knew him or tried to find him." that does not answer if they are uncapable of such a thing?


    This is going to be very disturbing... But if a baby was not baptised and they die, do they go to hell? (that is sooo bad but I have to ask based on that quote, hell is filled w/ babies!!! ) I would think that the least God would do is reincarnate them and give them another chance!?

    Speaking of, reincarnation is sac-relig, right!?
    Is there ever a chance or mention of it being otherwise?
    You are welcome to draw any conclusion you want.
    I will conclude that God won't hold people accountable if they aren't able to make an educated decision.
    Presumptuousness on my part would expect the latter.
    Just call me Berd.
  11.    #811  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    what a grim topic we turned to! but I am glad that the church recognized it and addressed it!
    and thanks for taking the time to address this on the go!
    It could even be a bit worse, but I kept the first mention simple so as not to confuse the message.

    If someone knowingly murdered a newly baptized person, they could claim they were doing it to "save a soul", and argue that even though they knew murder was wrong, they were putting the welfare of another ahead of their own eternal damnation (thus arguing that they should be a "marytr" for saving another at the expense of their own (eternal) life. That's clearly the sort of "disordered consequences" that the Church wants to avoid. Whether they actually think of such scenarios or the Holy Spirit is just preventing such things with no thought on the part of the Church, I am not sure. I am impressed that they never taught in such a way to allow this kind of scandal to occur. (Other scandals that did occur in the Church could be a hot topic of discussion if people want to go there. It's not high priority for me unless it can help others, then I'm open to it.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #812  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    what a grim topic we turned to! but I am glad that the church recognized it and addressed it!
    and thanks for taking the time to address this on the go!
    Oops

    I see now that sudoer addressed your concern.

    Keep in mind; it isn't up to the 'Church' to decide who goes to heaven.
    Just call me Berd.
  13.    #813  
    The issue of "why God allows evil" is another interesting topic and probably one we should discuss. I'm not sure I've fully thought that one through. I have my "answers", but I'm not satisfied I could give you a satisfying answer without some thought and research (and even then, maybe not). If others have resources that can help gsonpre (and many of us, including me) on this topic, please feel free to post what you know (or even think, it that might stimulate the discussion).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #814  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The issue of "why God allows evil" is another interesting topic and probably one we should discuss. I'm not sure I've fully thought that one through. I have my "answers", but I'm not satisfied I could give you a satisfying answer without some thought and research (and even then, maybe not). If others have resources that can help gsonpre (and many of us, including me) on this topic, please feel free to post what you know (or even think, it that might stimulate the discussion).
    If you look at Genesis 3:1-6:

    Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, but God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

    I drama unfolds.
    We agree that Satan used the serpent.
    First, Satan says God is lying to the couple, that they won't die.
    Second, They will be able to decide for themselves what is considered good or evil.
    This isn't that they were originally intended to be robots - they had freewill.
    Eve could of said that my father is more experienced than I, and he knows what's best for me - he knows what will harm or benefit me. I have a choice to serve him out of trust and love, and as the years go by, I will see the good fruitage of making that choice. Or I can shrug his authority and make those decisions for myself.

    She chose to ignore God's authority, thinking the tree was going to give her the wisdom to make wise choices as to what is good or bad.

    Adam cast his lot in with her.

    Today we see a long history of man ignoring God's counsel, and reaping the pain and suffering as a result.
    Just call me Berd.
  15. #815  
    Now we come to some questions;

    Why didn't God just bump these rebels off and start anew?
    Why doesn't God step in and fix this mess were in?

    Read thru the passage above again.
    Do we see a bigger question than just what's in our best interest?
    Do we see a universal question?

    Who knows best?
    Would that question be answered if God just did away with these three opposers?
    Just call me Berd.
  16. #816  
    Today we see a long history of man ignoring God's counsel, and reaping the pain and suffering as a result.
    .... So, our loving God horrifically punishes (or allows Satan to punish) millions of those who live their lives by "God's counsel", for other people's bad ways ... Pretty much just to make a point.

    I think somebody asked this before, but i'll ask in a different way-
    What exactly does prayer accomplish if evrything is a already a result of Adam and Eve disobeying God?
    So he'll remember you for later on?
  17. #817  
    Since this original rebellion, the question has most definitely been raised.
    Angels in heaven were looking on. Millions of Angels have since chose sides with Satan.

    What would be considered a reasonable amount of time for man to realize that they can't go it alone?

    The Angelic Rebels are no longer in heaven - God's will is done in heaven. Jesus promises it will be done on earth.

    How close do you think we are to answering that universal question for all eternity?
    Just call me Berd.
  18. #818  
    Mistranslations and contradictions - It is apparent that every translation of holy texts (this is truer for older religions such as Judaism and Christianity) than newer ones like Islam is different to other translations (otherwise there would only be one translation required per language per book), and there are many different versions of holy texts available. This means that there are multiple ways of interpreting the texts.

    In most texts you can find one part which appears to contradict another part. In most cases, tradition will dictate which part is the 'most' correct or which part is a refinement on the other. Deciding which parts override which is another cause of confusion;

    Change over time - As society changes over time, which it does, people's opinions and assumptions change. The fact that these change over time as they do means that it is likely to continue to change; that our current understanding is only temporary. The deities responsible for holy text would know that this would happen, therefore the truths that are written in to them must be designed to be interpreted in a dynamic way; but this means that there are no absolutes.

    Holy Texts reflect the opinions and points of view of those who read it, it doesn't form those opinions. They are re-interpreted according to the current trends and socio-economic factors, and there has not been a trend the other way round. I.e., a text did not cause a moral revolution, but instead it has been gradually re-interpreted according to how the morals have changed if a change was ready to occur. It is now considered immoral that women are seen as inferior to man and the slavery was godly. The Bible can be used to prove it. Yet it used to be the other way round, and the Bible was used as proof then, too. The actual text does not change, yet people will exploit its assumed "moral absolutes" in order to try and prove the things they believe.
  19. #819  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Now we come to some questions;
    Why didn't God just bump these rebels off and start anew?
    If he let Noah die, then there would have been no link to Adam from here, right?
    So why didn't he finish the job the first time?
  20. #820  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    .... So, our loving God horrifically punishes (or allows Satan to punish) millions of those who live their lives by "God's counsel", for other people's bad ways ... Pretty much just to make a point.
    If a parent asks his child to live by his guidelines and the child refuses, who do we blame?
    I think somebody asked this before, but i'll ask in a different way-
    What exactly does prayer accomplish if evrything is a already a result of Adam and Eve disobeying God?
    So he'll remember you for later on?
    Prayer will be a good subject, and is related. But I'd like to hold off on that and stay with 'why God is allowing bad things to happen to good people.'
    Just call me Berd.

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