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  1. #761  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Yes, Bob (sudoer), like i said earlier; I think you're doing a GREAT job "moderating" your thread.
    While you have your own beliefs, you are understanding and open to other people's views and you allow people to feel comfortable expressing those views.
    You've been extremely professional in your molding of this thread.
    Berd might want to hire you to be the next Pre|C moderator, lol.

    I vote to keep this thread open too.
    Well put DBD!
    Sudoer, you have done a great job Mod'ing this thread, and probably one of the easiest, "neutral" minded, "Jesus Freaks"(not meant in a bad way!) to have a religous debate/discussion with!!!!
  2. #762  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Well put DBD!
    Thank u.
  3.    #763  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    Well put DBD!
    Sudoer, you have done a great job Mod'ing this thread, and probably one of the easiest, "neutral" minded, "Jesus Freaks"(not meant in a bad way!) to have a religous debate/discussion with!!!!
    • I just wish I was not so "wordy".
    • We're supposed to make some sort of sacrifice during Lent (the season before Easter). Today I spent more time here than I normally would like to. There are lots of other good people jumping in when I get stuck or busy.
    • As far as being easy and neutral minded, I'm just treating you like I'd want to be treated if/when I was faced with similar questions. In a way, you have it harder than me (and a much bigger journey). That's not impossible, just "harder". Don't get discouraged!
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/23/2010 at 02:30 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #764  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    God has no beginning. He isn't constrained by time.
    Yes, well, that is very convenient for you.

    Given that God seems to be able to see, be and do whatever his worshipers believe, it makes it rather hard to have any kind of serious discussion.
  5.    #765  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Given that God seems to be able to see, be and do whatever his worshipers believe, it makes it rather hard to have any kind of serious discussion.
    You should not base any of your faith on what others believe. To choose whether to be a Christian*, you simply read his word and then it depends on what you believe. (*I'm not qualified to give you any advice outside of Christianity.)
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  6. Xerlot's Avatar
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    #766  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Yes, well, that is very convenient for you.

    Given that God seems to be able to see, be and do whatever his worshipers believe, it makes it rather hard to have any kind of serious discussion.
    Well if He wasn't would you think Him great enough to be cosidered God. If He had faults don't you think the secular world would have a field day with that. Everyone seems to try to find a fault in God, and the one you came up with is that He is too perfect. I think if I had a this problem it would be the least of my concerns LOL
    Last edited by Xerlot; 02/23/2010 at 03:25 PM.
  7. #767  
    In every discussion about god I have with others I find that they bring God down to their rules and their standards and I understand that it's only because it's all they know or have been taught. If we would to put God on trial, we would have the rules in which WE wrote and use. I also understand that people feel that it's just too easy to get into heaven. People are like "You don't have to work hard to get in or do any sort of weird ritual?" I know it's the way of the world to work hard for something and towards the end you get rewarded. Some people ask why would God make it so easy for thieves and murderers to get in? How can they be forgiven? If God was made up by us, that part would definately not be in the bible. I can assure you of that. I like to put it this way. If you show up to my house and not intruduce yourself and telling me that I should let you live here because you volunteered here and gave to their, it all sounds good, but I still don't know you and I won't let you stay. If I get to know you before you come knocking on my door and start a little history together, I'll let you stay, even if you've done little for this world. I'll let you in just because I know you. So will God.
    I have a neighbor who's friends with my wife. I don't really like her for reasons I won't get into. If she asked for a place to stay, I would let her stay with us, just because I know her and I want to help. So will God. You just have to accept him. That's it. The rest, as far as doing positive things in life will follow with your heart in it.
  8. #768  
    Ok caught up (finally!), and too much to go back and quote on...
    DBD: I am sorry to hear of your losses in 9/11 I am from NJ and had many direct relations with some that have passed in that tragic event, I feel your pain and your frustrations in the beliefs of "God" when stuff like this happens.

    I dont know what challenges my belief in a "God" more? when acts like this and war (from religious debates or not) from humans or natural disasters like Haiti and the many others? If "God" embraces free will on all "his beautiful creatures" why does he want soo many to die at the hands that he failed to get proper education on religion to?
    Or why does he kill 100,000's people in natural disasters? I dont feel Anyone can "Truly" answer this or "Truly" determine that there is a God at work doing this. Of course I feel the latter. All I hear is pray to god that he helps those survived (but he caused it, right? so he already chose who survives) and God works in mysterious ways.

    I feel those of us with our thinking will never be satisfied with what words of a book says, especially books created by humans like you and me and the same species as murderers, Liars, exagerators, and even molesting priests.
    Until someone can show me the Holy Grail or the Ark or whatever physical evidence or an Angel or an Immortal being, I dont feel I can be truly convinced. But still even those dont prove there is a God it proves that someone did enough to create them.

    On the other hand, we may be lacking an attraction/feeling, compelling emotion that believers feel. So our beliefs or lack of may be explained through a chemical reaction in our brains or bodiy??? Who knows?

    What I do know, is that I like Micael's belief of a God but not religion and that is what I can be closest convinced towards. Its not what the bible says or any other book of religion. It is incomprehensible how deep our galaxy is, and what is before and after it. Its impossible (in this stage of science) that can explain how the first molecules/atoms that combined got there in the first place.And more importantly it is impossible to know if there truly is a "God" (until after we die) and more importantly if there is, what intentions he has for us as human beings. Maybe he is just a creator and does not interfere or care what happens after, like a carpenter who makes a chair and sells it. Or maybe it is all just a science that we have not discovered an answer to!

    What I can not accept is that people have to accept Jesus as their lord and savior to go to heaven. If its the truth I feel bad for the millions that were not raised to know of a Jesus, or the mentally disabled and can not comprehend religion that they will not have the fortune of going to heaven.

    A question though?
    Was heaven originally perceived as the place above the clouds and hell in the middle of the earth? Was that the original thought of location for the "places"?
    Last edited by gsonspre; 02/23/2010 at 04:26 PM.
  9. #769  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Everyone seems to try to find a fault in God, and the one you came up with is that He is too perfect.
    God's supposed infallibleness is it's biggest fault. It's these claims of God being perfect which leave many of us natural born folks unable to understand where believers are coming from.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/23/2010 at 04:25 PM.
  10. #770  
    sevenlkl@yahoo.com - I would advise that you change your user name to something that isn't an e-mail address. The SPAM bots are eating it as we speak.
  11.    #771  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Ok Riley,
    I've had a chance to read the above article. Would you like to discuss this? (What I saw was an unfair and underfunded program by the Canadian Government where several religious groups were asked to step in and help the government implement their underfunded program.) The government did not provide oversight or controls to protect the Aboriginal peoples of Canada. The government apologized in 2008 and our current Pope met with the National Chief of the Assembly of First Nations in 2009 and expressed his sorrow for all of the abuse these people encountered (by anyone: Government and any religious faith). The Pope specifically expressed anguish and apologies for deplorable conduct of some our Church members. The Pope also prayed that all those affected would experience healing. The Pope did what he could a half-century after the fact to make things as right as possible. His actions and apology was appreciated by the Chief. Is there more you think the Pope could have done? Can you also remind me of the reason you brought this up so we can discuss any issues around that? -- thanks
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/23/2010 at 04:12 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. Micael's Avatar
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    #772  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    God's supposed infallibleness is it's biggest fault. It's these claims of God being perfect which leave many of us natural born folks unable to understand where belivers are comming from.
    If God doesn't exist, how can He have a biggest fault?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  13. #773  
    please note a delayed response to the threads above if anyone cares to camment...
    (for some reason it lets me post without hesitation and other times it is delayed cuz it has to be reviewed)
  14. #774  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    God's supposed infallibleness is it's biggest fault. It's these claims of God being perfect which leave many of us natural born folks unable to understand where belivers are comming from.
    I think you accidentally grabbed a quote and put my name to it.
    I didn't post what you quoted me as saying.
    Please edit your post.
    Just call me Berd.
  15. #775  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    ...... If its the truth I feel bad for the millions that were not raised to know of a Jesus, or the mentally disabled and cannot comprehend religion that they will not have the fortune of going to heaven.
    Now THIS IS ONE OF THE BEST QUESTIONS I HAVE SEEN ON THIS THREAD SO FAR. GREAT QUESTION, and i would love to see the answers that this question brings.
    Actually, it wasn't a question, but you all know what i mean.

    P.S.- Thank you for ur kind words and the same to you.
    Last edited by dbdoinit; 02/23/2010 at 04:32 PM.
  16. #776  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    The Pope specifically expressed anguish and apologies for deplorable conduct of some our Church members. The Pope also prayed that all those affected would experience healing. The Pope expressed anguish and did what he could a half-century after the fact. His actions and apology was appreciated by the Chief. Is there more you think he could have done?
    Aside from the fact that praying won't help anything? To a traditional First Nations person a Catholic prayer is tantamount to doing nothing (regardless of what one might say while on camera). If God existed, wouldn't he have directed the Pope (back in the day) to not involve the Catholic Church with the residential school program? God is loving, all knowing, etc but lets/directs the most powerful Christian on the planet to allow his personnel to forcefully convert and abuse humans all over the worlds second largest country?

    Sure the federal Government let it happen but they never claimed to be perfect, all knowing, soul saving and to love everyone unconditionally.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/23/2010 at 04:23 PM.
  17. #777  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    I think you accidentally grabbed a quote and put my name to it.
    I didn't post what you quoted me as saying.
    Please edit your post.
    Not sure what is going on there. I just hit quote and started typing. Editing now....fount it, it was Xerlot. Fixed.
  18. #778  
    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    If God doesn't exist, how can He have a biggest fault?
    Let me clarify....

    The God myths supposed infallibleness is it's biggest fault. It's these claims of God being perfect which leave many of us natural born folks unable to understand where believers are coming from.
  19.    #779  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If God existed, wouldn't he have directed the Pope (back in the day) to not involve the Catholic Church with the residential school program?
    You will need to ask him why (if he exists and you ever meet him).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  20. #780  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    Yes and no.
    Much of what is written in Revelation is symbolic (in no way to be taken literally) However; much of what is written in Revelation can be understood by comparing with what was written before. For example; Revelation talks a lot about Beasts. We find by comparing these with the writings of Daniel that these Beasts are Ruling Powers.
    Earlier we talked about 6 literal creative days. Most agree that these weren't 6 literal earthly days. Which later we read that 1000 years is as a day to God.
    Just how long a 'Creative Day' is, we do not know. It could be millions of years.
    God has no beginning. He isn't constrained by time.
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Yes, well, that is very convenient for you.

    Given that God seems to be able to see, be and do whatever his worshipers believe, it makes it rather hard to have any kind of serious discussion.
    Maybe you misunderstood me.
    The comment was made that so much of the Bible isn't literal. That's where I was going with my post.
    From comparing scripture to scripture we have come to understand what much of the symbolic language used means. Most agree that God didn't create heaven and earth, and all they contain, in six literal earthly days. So my comment about God and Time.
    What we don't understand, God will reveal when it's his time. I don't see that as lacking the ability for 'serious discussion' just because we don't have all the answers now. I don't even see that as a 'cop-out' as some have put it.

    The 'proof' some people want before they will believe in God seems to me very similar to the 'faith' people put in what science has told them for the origin of the universe. Some say the universe had no beginning - good, believe that.
    Some say it started with a Big Bang. - good, believe that.
    What makes one a more serious discussion than the other?

    For me, I believe what I understand from my personal study of scripture. Some of what others believe about God may not be what I believe.
    I don't write off Science, that would be foolish. But rather, I weigh it in light of my 'understanding' of scripture.
    Just call me Berd.

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