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  1. #701  
    Quote Originally Posted by Rezistrat View Post
    something had to start everything that something is god. Did god talk to moses etc... I don't know
    What? Why does there need to have been a start? Why can't the universe have always existed in one form or onther? Things requiring a start and a finish is a very human idea.....possibly explaining the need for some humans to invent the idea of a God perhaps.
  2. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #702  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I'm saying that people who believe in god and want to spend the afterlife in heaven don't have freewill. Presumably the nature of their earth time will be evaluated to determine whether they take the escalator up or down. Of course the key to this is that you must "believe in god and want to spend the afterlife in heaven." If not, then you have freewill to live your life like the rest of the natural born population.
    I'm sorry, but I don't see what you are saying as making any sense. We all have free will, and I'm not sure why you cannot understand this.

    KAM
  3.    #703  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I would think a guy with divine powers should have been able to do this with little problem, no?
    Jesus had both a human and divine nature. Some things he said are spoken from his human nature. (I know this sounds like a cop-out to you, but this is what Jesus is recorded as having said. I don't aim to gloss over any truth.)

    There are some other interesting theological concepts around this (which I only became aware of within the past year). God in heaven is all knowing and transcends time. We on Earth must live within a concept of time. It is through Jesus coming into our concept of time and living the same life we each were meant to (but can't) that he saved us. This is why the Bible says that Jesus is the "one Mediator" between man and the father. From a Christian perspective, if we believe the Bible to be correct, we have to conclude that religions created after this time are from somehow misdirected people. I'm not arrogant enough to know whether or not even I am misdirected. I believe the curiosity which I seem to have been given leaves me open to the possibility that I could be wrong. I've been open to this possibility for the past 30 years. That hasn't been easy (as I'm sure it's not easy for most other people who face these questions).
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #704  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    I'm saying that people who believe in god and want to spend the afterlife in heaven don't have freewill. Presumably the nature of their earth time will be evaluated to determine whether they take the escalator up or down. Of course the key to this is that you must "believe in god and want to spend the afterlife in heaven." If not, then you have freewill to live your life like the rest of the natural born population.
    Although your rhetoric is an interesting choice, I think I agree with your point. As an objectivist, I think a person should either believe in free will (me) or believe in heavenly pre-determinism (religious people who believe that god is in control of our lives and all we see); i.e. **** or get off the pot. And I think these two ideologies are metaphysically opposite and therefore mutually exclusive -- you cannot have it both ways.

    So, if man has free will, and his life is the sole result of his actions, the actions of other people interacting with him, or coincidence, why pray? Or, if god has dominion over this world, is intricately involved in our lives, and all is pre-determined, why fret over our choices, worry about consequences, or begrudge our circumstances -- it's all gods plan, right?
  5. Micael's Avatar
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    #705  
    Since we've been quoting other people and authors in this thread on the topic of God and Mankind, I thought I'd add a few by a favorite philosopher and all around deep thinker, Jack Handey:

    If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting.

    My young son asked me what happens after we die. I told him we get buried under a bunch of dirt and worms eat our bodies. I guess I should have told him the truth - that most of us go to Hell and burn eternally - but I didn't want to upset him.

    Broken promises don't upset me. I just think, why did they believe me?

    If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

    Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself. Basically, it's made up of two separate words "mank" and "ind." What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind.

    I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world because they'd never expect it.
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  6. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #706  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    "It was AGAINST a Religious and ethnic group by a political group."

    Exactly, one culture murdering 6 million people of another culture based on their religion.
    That's true, but blaming Religion is blaming the victim in this case. I'm not saying you are blaming them, but the Religious people didn't cause this is the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Communism doesn't murder people, it sits idly by why people suffer and die under stifling political and social confines. If my neighbor needs my help, and I choose not to, and he dies, have I murdered him? If your answer is yes, then we have a different definition of murder.
    Actually, Communism most definitely does murder people--intentionally starving them, working them to death, or executing them directly. Communists didn't simply "fail to help" they created situations directly that killed people. Your analogy would be more accurate if you said that you set your neighbor's house on fire.

    Communism didn't just innocently fail, resulting in the deaths of millions--these deaths were the direct result of the programs and practices that these communist leaders FORCED on people. They confiscated their property, told them where to go, what to do, what they could have, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    "I think if you ask how many people were literally killed in order to satisfy a legitimate Religious practice (as defined by the religions in question) you would find that this number is quite small."

    On this we disagree.
    Ok, do you have any indication of how many people have been killed that is attributable directly to the actions of a Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    "While the 9/11 hijackers claim to be doing the work of their Religion, that is rejected by mainstream Islam--for example."

    There was an infamous and telling video clip shortly after 9/11 of thousands of arabs literally dancing in the streets when news of 9/11 arrived. It was what I would describe as unbridled joy and celebration. Although I agree, Islam "officially" denounced the act of terrorism.
    And I suggest that this is political more than Religious. I think you will find that Arab Extremists hate ISRAEL, not Jews (or less so at least). They hate the United States specifically--a secular nation, not Christianity (at least to a lesser degree). These people weren't celebrating an attack on Christianity, they were celebrating an attack on the United States. Religion is the excuse and perhaps even used as a tool, but this is a distortion of Religion.

    People of different Religions live side by side very easily when you remove the political and ethnic hatred I think.

    KAM
  7. #707  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    That's true, but blaming Religion is blaming the victim in this case. I'm not saying you are blaming them, but the Religious people didn't cause this is the point.



    Actually, Communism most definitely does murder people--intentionally starving them, working them to death, or executing them directly. Communists didn't simply "fail to help" they created situations directly that killed people. Your analogy would be more accurate if you said that you set your neighbor's house on fire.

    Communism didn't just innocently fail, resulting in the deaths of millions--these deaths were the direct result of the programs and practices that these communist leaders FORCED on people. They confiscated their property, told them where to go, what to do, what they could have, etc.



    Ok, do you have any indication of how many people have been killed that is attributable directly to the actions of a Religion?



    And I suggest that this is political more than Religious. I think you will find that Arab Extremists hate ISRAEL, not Jews (or less so at least). They hate the United States specifically--a secular nation, not Christianity (at least to a lesser degree). These people weren't celebrating an attack on Christianity, they were celebrating an attack on the United States. Religion is the excuse and perhaps even used as a tool, but this is a distortion of Religion.

    People of different Religions live side by side very easily when you remove the political and ethnic hatred I think.

    KAM
    I view people killed by religious people and people killed because of their religion as equally reprehensible and the same.

    I have no earthly idea how many people were killed in either fashion described above. I was referencing a quote that I cannot find.

    Communism is an idea for a lifestyle that never involved killing people. It was poorly executed at best. Murder is intentional, and I don't believe true communists (I should say here that I am not sympathetic to communism, I just recognize their intent as decent) ever intended their social system to end in poverty, starvation, and death.

    I disagree with your example of islamic extremists hating a culture versus a religion. The penalty for a christian in america converting to islam - nothing. The penalty for muslims converting to christianity under sharia law - death. This is not about geography or politics, its religion, in my humble little opinion, of course .
  8.    #708  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I view people killed by religious people and people killed because of their religion as equally reprehensible and the same.
    It's not the same when you spin the killing of 6 million people because of "anti-religion" practices into the fault of the victims. The assertion you made/supported was that religion causes wars. If this is the case, maybe H i t l e r didn't get a chance to go far enough to rid the world of this practice. Too bad!

    EDIT: On a more positive (but still sick) note, I'm interested in hearing peoples understandings of other religious wars throughout history.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #709  
    If Jesus is God, did he really die?
    If so, how dead was he? The bible says he was dead for three days, and on the third day God resurrected him.
    Did just his physical body die? So where did his spiritual body go while his physical body was dead.
    Why did God resurrect him? Why couldn't he just resurrect himself, if he was God?
  10. #710  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    It's not the same when you spin the killing of 6 million people because of "anti-religion" practices into the fault of the victims. The assertion you made/supported was that religion causes wars. If this is the case, maybe H i t l e r didn't get a chance to go far enough to rid the world of this practice. Too bad!

    EDIT: On a more positive (but still sick) note, I'm interested in hearing peoples understandings of other religious wars throughout history.
    Certainly I wasn't clear -- my fault -- because victim-blaming was not my intent.

    To clarify: If you are a religious person who kills someone of a different faith and for that reason, you are evil. If you are a non-religious person (a politico, perhaps) who kills someone who espouses a specific religion and for that reason, you are evil.
  11.    #711  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    What? Why does there need to have been a start? Why can't the universe have always existed in one form or onther? Things requiring a start and a finish is a very human idea.....possibly explaining the need for some humans to invent the idea of a God perhaps.
    I was with you all the way up until the "....." and then your logic escaped me. I think I can sort of follow it but I'm not sure. I'll restate what I think you were trying to say (at the serious risk of putting "my own" words into your mouth).

    I think logic and our understanding of time necessitates that we think of the concepts of "before the before" and "after the after". Mathematically we call this negative and positive infinity.

    Humans, being temporal in nature, and living in a time ordered world where each human learns of beginnings and ends of things around them (including their own very lives) cannot fathom the concept of infinity (at least in their real, everyday world). When humans think in terms of their observations in this world that "each cause must have a causer", they envision the concept of a causer of all causes. They often refer to this causer as "God".

    I hope I didn't totally misrepresent your argument. If not, I'd say: yes, that pretty much sums it up! (This is what I've been trying to say all along.) How close did I get to what you were trying to say? -- thx

    EDIT: Let me add again that I see logic very much involved in peoples determination of the existence or non-existence of a God, but that going either way represents an element of uncertainty and judgment by each of us.
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/23/2010 at 10:17 AM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  12. #712  
    From: God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs

    If you look in the Bible, there are an amazing number of people that God wants his followers to murder. For example, in Exodus 35:2 God lays down this commandment:

    • For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.


    Think about that how many people work on the Sabbath -- all the employees of Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Linnens & things, grocery stores, convenience stores, power plants, airlines, hospitals, emergency services and on and on and on. Don't rabbis, priests and preachers work on the Sabbath? God wants all of them dead.

    Then look at Deut 21:18-21. It says:

    • If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.


    That is a whole lot of teenagers that we need to kill.

    Then there is Leviticus 20:13:

    • If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.


    All homosexuals need to be killed.

    What about this:

    • If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.


    That's a lot of people who need to be killed.

    In other words, if we actually listened to what God says, we would need to kill at least half of the people in America tomorrow. After all, Isaiah 40:8 says, "The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever." The word of the Lord tells us to kill half of the U.S. population.

    There are two things in this that show you that God is imaginary. First there is the utter stupidity of these verses. Second, there is this fact: If God is an all-powerful being, he would kill them himself. There would be no need for people to do the murdering. These people would already be dead, and Wal-Mart would be closed on the Sabbath through lack of employees.

    Notice that believers completely ignore these parts of the Bible. That is because they know that the verses are insane. By acknowledging that their God is insane, they prove that their God is imaginary.
    Last edited by ryleyinstl; 02/23/2010 at 10:42 AM.
  13.    #713  
    Riley,
    I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to review the questions/arguments you made in the preceding post, but the first thing that comes to my mind is whether "death" means physical death or spiritual death. The second this is to look at what the societal practices at the time were. The words need to be taken in those contexts. (Hopefully this will give you a bit more to go on should you search for answers before anyone in this thread has a chance to respond). -- thx

    EDIT: BTW: It's good you are looking at that site and sharing the questions that puzzle you most!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  14. #714  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Riley,
    I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to review the questions/arguments you made in the preceding post, but the first thing that comes to my mind is whether "death" means physical death or spiritual death. The second this is to look at what the societal practices at the time were. The words need to be taken in those contexts. (Hopefully this will give you a bit more to go on should you search for answers before anyone in this thread has a chance to respond). -- thx
    You have no obligation to respond Sudoer. I'm just putting it out there.

    Death - is the termination of the biological functions that define a living organism. It refers both to a particular event and to the condition that results thereby.
  15. KAM1138
    KAM1138's Avatar
    #715  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I view people killed by religious people and people killed because of their religion as equally reprehensible and the same.
    I don't see this as being at all the same. If someone hates a Religious Group and kills them, it is certainly related to religion, but it also seems clear that it is through no fault of the Religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I have no earthly idea how many people were killed in either fashion described above. I was referencing a quote that I cannot find.
    As I said--I challenge that notion, and would like to see some evidence of the claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Communism is an idea for a lifestyle that never involved killing people. It was poorly executed at best. Murder is intentional, and I don't believe true communists (I should say here that I am not sympathetic to communism, I just recognize their intent as decent) ever intended their social system to end in poverty, starvation, and death.
    Actually, I believe that Marx (the father of communism...essentially) was aware and comfortable with the idea of revolution--to Achieve communism.
    I would further suggest that state-based communism is a fraud. I'm not sure that they intend for the END to be poverty, starvation and death, but rather that these were willful actions that intentionally involved all of the above. Mao knew what he was doing killed his own people and did it anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    I disagree with your example of islamic extremists hating a culture versus a religion. The penalty for a christian in america converting to islam - nothing. The penalty for muslims converting to christianity under sharia law - death. This is not about geography or politics, its religion, in my humble little opinion, of course .
    Well, it is true--there does exist hatred of others based on Religion, but in the example you stated, I maintain that those are political issues as well.

    KAM
  16. #716  
    KAM:

    In general, wouldn't you agree that the U.S. is considered a Christian nation? Remember the Constitution?
    Wouldn't you agree that countries such as Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen etc. are considered Islamic countries?
    Hence the religious differences angle.
  17. #717  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    I don't see this as being at all the same. If someone hates a Religious Group and kills them, it is certainly related to religion, but it also seems clear that it is through no fault of the Religion.



    As I said--I challenge that notion, and would like to see some evidence of the claims.



    Actually, I believe that Marx (the father of communism...essentially) was aware and comfortable with the idea of revolution--to Achieve communism.
    I would further suggest that state-based communism is a fraud. I'm not sure that they intend for the END to be poverty, starvation and death, but rather that these were willful actions that intentionally involved all of the above. Mao knew what he was doing killed his own people and did it anyway.



    Well, it is true--there does exist hatred of others based on Religion, but in the example you stated, I maintain that those are political issues as well.

    KAM
    How do you get my individual little quotes separated like that with your responses in between? Obviously I'm a newbie and would love to know the little secret that everyone else already knows...
  18. #718  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    How do you get my individual little quotes separated like that with your responses in between? Obviously I'm a newbie and would love to know the little secret that everyone else already knows...
    [ quote ] text text text text [ /quote ]

    Response response response response

    [ quote ] text text text text [ /quote ]

    Response response response response

    *remove the spaces in the tags.
  19. #719  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    If you look in the Bible, there are an amazing number of people that God wants his followers to murder. For example, in Exodus 35:2 God lays down this commandment:

    • For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.


    Think about that how many people work on the Sabbath -- all the employees of Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Linnens & things, grocery stores, convenience stores, power plants, airlines, hospitals, emergency services and on and on and on. Don't rabbis, priests and preachers work on the Sabbath? God wants all of them dead.

    Then look at Deut 21:18-21. It says:

    • If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.


    That is a whole lot of teenagers that we need to kill.

    Then there is Leviticus 20:13:

    • If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.


    All homosexuals need to be killed.

    What about this:

    • If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.


    That's a lot of people who need to be killed.

    In other words, if we actually listened to what God says, we would need to kill at least half of the people in America tomorrow. After all, Isaiah 40:8 says, "The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever." The word of the Lord tells us to kill half of the U.S. population.

    There are two things in this that show you that God is imaginary. First there is the utter stupidity of these verses. Second, there is this fact: If God is an all-powerful being, he would kill them himself. There would be no need for people to do the murdering. These people would already be dead, and Wal-Mart would be closed on the Sabbath through lack of employees.

    Notice that believers completely ignore these parts of the Bible. That is because they know that the verses are insane. By acknowledging that their God is insane, they prove that their God is imaginary.
    I can't quote the bible in this fashion, but if these verses exist in the bible as you present them, I am interested in the responses from the believers.
  20.    #720  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    You have no obligation to respond Sudoer. I'm just putting it out there.
    If/when I learn based on your post, my intent is to share whatever I learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    Death - is the termination of the biological functions that define a living organism. It refers both to a particular event and to the condition that results thereby.
    I was just giving you some general principles from the book you are quoting. It definitely speaks of spiritual death in Paul's writings. There will be at least ties to this NT spiritual death in the OT. I suspect it will be much stronger than this but you or I will have to research this (or have others explain it to use so we can verify) to be sure exactly what the Bible means in those quotations. Oftentimes quotations are taken out of context to make misleading arguments. I don't know why men do this or even if they know they do.

    Another interesting thought came to me. If God is to raise our bodies in the end times, I'd love to know the process that he uses our DNA to regenerate us. This is one of the first things I want to know if/when I get to Heaven!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!

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