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  1. #641  
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerlot View Post
    Shoot I totally agree with you but you then lose your free will. If a cop is standing by the meter who in their right mind would not put the money in. You just lost your choice of putting money in or not. Same goes with God. He made us to have free will if He was constantly showing Himself we would lose the choice. You would have to be a madman not to follow Him. God does not want us to be mindless zombies following His every command. He allows us to make our own mistakes but is always waiting for us to come back. Like a good parent would do.
    good rebuttal, but he can just set less rules... not like a lot are in place already... Do good, be good, and dont covet you neighbors wife and youre in! haha JK
    What about current "bad things" that people do, are they ant-law of God?
    Drugs? Homosexuality? (not that these may be a bad thing but is frowned upon some society) And why are some religious people so anti homosexuality, its not stated anywhere in the Bible but they are over abusing God's freewill and putting words in his mouth!?
  2. #642  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Not only that, but even when there are multiple eyewitness to a crime, each one will have a different account of what they saw happen. This is a known phenomenon in police/detective work.
    Then you could throw on top of that all the "translations".
    Really. How accurate can it be?
    Hadn't thought of that. The bible is a first-person account of history through the eyes of many people. Great point.
  3.    #643  
    It might be time for us all to take stock of where we are and what (if anything) we have learned so far. I'll try and recap (but that's going to take a while). Until then, perhaps some/each of you can do the same. I liked gsonspre's question (and none of us have probably yet considered how we might answer that). Perhaps interested people could write "a letter to themselves" just as a way of recalling for yourself how you arrived at where you are today. I think having that, plus a summary of some of the various arguments might give each of us a chance to individually assess where we are. This should help to focus the arguments and questions in a productive way. If people feel they want to share some of what this sort of self assessment brings, that might benefit the group.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  4. #644  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    But, you see, that's why the current translations can be trusted. We have thousands of manuscripts and partial manuscripts to use to corroborate the translations. So, rather than the vast majority of ancient texts which have relatively few editions and translations still in existence, and the oldest of those being many centuries departed from the originals, the perceived importance of the Bible lead to its copying and translating many, many times over the last two millennia. Aside from the thousands of manuscript fragments in existence, we have the Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus from the 4th Century and the Ephaemi and Alexandrinus from the 5th Century. All of which contain most of the New Testament books and all of which are used, to a greater or lesser extent, in our current Greek translations. We don't have to rely on just the Vulgate/Textus Receptus translation.

    My point is that if you disregard the Bible as a reliable version of the original text then you have to disregard every other ancient text as well because the Bible is the most corroborated and most archeologically supported ancient text in existence.
    Yours is a good point. I am an objectivist and need to see the proof/evidence. So when I am presented with tampered evidence, the bible (in my opinion only, of course), I remain skeptical until my common sense is satisfied or I see original, tangible proof. I will never see original proof because all of the fantastic things the bible discusses happened thousands of years ago and conveniently not since. And for me personally religion is the opposite of common sense (walking on water, talking bush, adam and eve lived 900 years, parting the red sea, etc. etc.). So while the idea of whats in the bible is certainly and interesting one, I cannot accept it as accurate in its current presentation.

    Take the book of mormon. That text is only 160 years old and has been revised many times -- several times by Joseph Smith himself. So this is another example of a historic document I cannot accept. But I appreciate your reasoning.
  5. #645  
    Quote Originally Posted by KAM1138 View Post
    How so? Given that the bible was for a very long time reproduced by hand, I would say there is an amazing degree of consistency. While it is true that certain points are in fact endangered by not properly understanding all points in that chain of translation, these things are fairly well documented. For example, you can the New Testament in its original Greek, and translations that explain the details of it. If you simply pick up a King James version of it, and treat each and every word as literal, you might run into certain problems.

    Each reproduction COULD result in erosion of the original meaning, but it doesn't mean that must have occurred. As I mentioned--one can obtain a direct to English Translation from Greek, bypassing translations into Latin, and without the King James translation or others, and these things can all be compared.

    KAM
    "Each reproduction COULD result in erosion of the original meaning, but it doesn't mean that must have occurred."

    On this point I'm agnostic. You can't prove the bible has retained its original content and I cannot prove otherwise. In my opinion, based on the methods of reproduction and translation and the shear weight of the number of times this has happened, I would assume its original, organic meaning/information was lost a thousand years ago.

    On a second note, and I realize this might open a giant can of worms, I personally feel the bible is a form of control. If this is true, and I merely think that it is, altering its content would amount to an extremely effective system of control. Recent example: The original book of mormon contained nothing related to plural marriage. When Joseph Smith got caught cheating on his wife, he conveniently had a revelation from god which discussed gods desire for his disciples to take multiple wives. And soon after the book of mormon contained passages that commanded mormons to marry multiple women. And later, of course, when plural marriage was viewed negatively by the U.S. government, this commandment mysteriously disappeared (was edited out). This is just one little example of my point.
  6.    #646  
    One point I need to make right away is that science is observing that which is around you, developing a hypothesis that might explain some of what you see, devising and conducting experiments to test that hypothesis, learning some things along the way and either revising or developing additional hypotheses, and repeating this until you can develop working models that explain your observations. I agree with the notion of "treating religion like a science" but keep in mind (as in any science) we're not guaranteed that we'll find answers to all of our questions. I do believe that following a scientific method with respect to testing and selecting various religions "to a God" is a worthy field of science. Many scientists choose what appear to be "easier" problems to solve (or problems that "pay more" if solved). Scientists also make themselves aware of the state of the "current research" so they can build on accepted principles rather than reinventing the same conclusions of someone else's experiments. This is another reason we should slow down and do some assessments if where we are. This might even (at least for me) meant to go back and read some of the supporting material posted (like the "existence of God" Wikipedia page that Riley posted). thanks everyone!
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  7. #647  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    faith can go a long way but proof can go further.
    If he would come down I would be a faithful follower, but it wouldnt make me a better person then I already am!
    It would also prevent many religious wars! Heck the Twin Towers would still be standing if God presented himself, not to interfere but to debunk radical religious activists and sacrifices. I personally cant see how not presenting himself is for the better of mankind?
    If a cop was standing outside of a meter I would be sure to put plenty of change in, but if ones not, i may run into the store for 1 minute without paying for 15.
    You would think...

    But God sent his son, and the Religious leaders had him killed.
    Why? Because Jesus exposed their hypocrisy. He exposed their selfish desire for lording it over the common people. Despite all the evidence they saw, they wanted him dead because they would lose their power over the people.

    I could see something similar happening today.
    Just call me Berd.
  8.    #648  
    Let me just add that "the Bible" should be viewed as one piece of evidence to study. If it supposedly reveals things about our unknown God's nature, then it either helps build a model or it does not. The same test should be given to sources claimed to be sources of revelation for other religions. Maybe we find 0 models that work (which could be very profitable), maybe we find several models that work (which would "prove" the least, at least in my opinion), or maybe we're able to find a single model that works better than the absence of any models. These end goals are the most favorable but absence of "sharpening" the problem would just mean we "still don't know". I suspect we'll end somewhere in the center, but there will be enough evidence that people can find a side that's easier to "jump to" than without this sort of analysis.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  9. #649  
    Quote Originally Posted by sudoer View Post
    Let me just add that "the Bible" should be viewed as one piece of evidence to study...
    Sudoer:
    If the bible is "evidence", then it would be undisputed.
  10. #650  
    Quote Originally Posted by berdinkerdickle View Post
    You would think...

    But God sent his son, and the Religious leaders had him killed.
    Why? Because Jesus exposed their hypocrisy. He exposed their selfish desire for lording it over the common people. Despite all the evidence they saw, they wanted him dead because they would lose their power over the people.

    I could see something similar happening today.
    I agree! Theres a lot of that happening today people abusing the words of God and twisting them to their benefit and power! I think its time to send Jesus back down! You know, I think that if Jesus would come to us in a physical form , I truthfully dont know how he would be believed! He would have to put on one hell of a show! In all honesty though Its a shame that religion is as political as it is! The 2 in no way should be intertwined!

    On a side note, has anyone heard of the Latino Jesus that swears he is "The Jesus" Son of God! He has his own show on TV and apparently he has a HUGE following!
  11.    #651  
    Quote Originally Posted by dbd View Post
    Sudoer:
    If the bible is "evidence", then it would be undisputed.
    EDIT: I had written a post here but I accidentally deleted it in edit mode when I thought I was quoting it in another post. I'll write it again

    What do you mean by "disputed"? I think we can't dispute the accuracy of what's written (relative to any other book). We can dispute the claim that it's the inerrant word of God. So far you all have used that to question why homosexuality is not allowed, so far, you have not disputed my answer was that we said Jesus made that decision. You still have to shoot some solid holes in this ship and try to sink it. If it's the inerrant word of God, that should be impossible.

    Let me add that I don't really think our discussion has begun, let alone completed. My point is that so far, one failed attempt at proving us wrong represents a "lost battle" and you guys need to rally the troops again with heavier artillery!
    Last edited by sudoer; 02/22/2010 at 07:52 PM.
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
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    #652  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I agree! Theres a lot of that happening today people abusing the words of God and twisting them to their benefit and power! I think its time to send Jesus back down! You know, I think that if Jesus would come to us in a physical form , I truthfully dont know how he would be believed! He would have to put on one hell of a show! In all honesty though Its a shame that religion is as political as it is! The 2 in no way should be intertwined!

    On a side note, has anyone heard of the Latino Jesus that swears he is "The Jesus" Son of God! He has his own show on TV and apparently he has a HUGE following!

    The next time we see Jesus it will be too late for the multitude of non believers.
    In one respect I do agree religion and the state should be separate but when it comes to the moral issues. I think that we should look to the teachings of the Bible. In my opinion the reason this world is so screwy is because we have moved away from Biblical teachings and started to look within ourselves for the answers. The world was soo much kinder, the people more friendly and willing to help each other when Biblical teachings were more prevalent in society.
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    #653  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    According to who?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
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    #654  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Hadn't thought of that. The bible is a first-person account of history through the eyes of many people. Great point.
    Should that be "through the handwriting of many people."?
    The Law of Logical Argument: Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
  15. #655  
    Quote Originally Posted by groovy View Post
    ......a group of men, some of which are said to be dead and most of the rest are sleeping! So your telling me that the balance of Christianity myth rides on the 2000 year old testimony of 3 traumatized and sleep deprived guys surrounded by a pile of dead and sleeping men? Alrighty then.

    I'm proposing that man has cooked up much more believable things then the existence of God.
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    #656  
    Quote Originally Posted by joshaccount View Post
    Yours is a good point. I am an objectivist and need to see the proof/evidence. So when I am presented with tampered evidence, the bible (in my opinion only, of course), I remain skeptical until my common sense is satisfied or I see original, tangible proof. I will never see original proof because all of the fantastic things the bible discusses happened thousands of years ago and conveniently not since. And for me personally religion is the opposite of common sense (walking on water, talking bush, adam and eve lived 900 years, parting the red sea, etc. etc.). So while the idea of whats in the bible is certainly and interesting one, I cannot accept it as accurate in its current presentation.

    Take the book of mormon. That text is only 160 years old and has been revised many times -- several times by Joseph Smith himself. So this is another example of a historic document I cannot accept. But I appreciate your reasoning.
    And I appreciate your skepticism. I was just making the point that the Bible, far from being the least reliable text, is actually much more reliable when compared to other texts in the same category. Further, there are strikingly specific themes running through the entire text that would be very hard to duplicate in any other groups of texts from multiple authors written over more than a millennium.
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    #657  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    ......a group of men, some of which are said to be dead and most of the rest are sleeping! So your telling me that the balance of Christianity myth rides on the 2000 year old testimony of 3 traumatized and sleep deprived guys surrounded by a pile of dead and sleeping men? Alrighty then.

    I'm proposing that man has cooked up much more believable things then the existence of God.
    If you're really interested, I'd invite you to read the text again more closely. You seem to have missed some points.
  18.    #658  
    Quote Originally Posted by ryleyinstl View Post
    ......a group of men, some of which are said to be dead and most of the rest are sleeping! So your telling me that the balance of Christianity myth rides on the 2000 year old testimony of 3 traumatized and sleep deprived guys surrounded by a pile of dead and sleeping men? Alrighty then.

    I'm proposing that man has cooked up much more believable things then the existence of God.
    You read that in this????
    1 Corinthians 15:6 (New International Version)

    6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.
    Looks like we need to go even more "dynamic equivalent" for you than Groovy already did:
    1 Corinthians 15:6 (New Living Translation)

    6 After that, he was seen by more than 500 of his followers[a] at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.
    Is that a bit more clear for you?
    I'm both super! ... and a doer!
  19. groovy's Avatar
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    #659  
    Quote Originally Posted by gsonspre View Post
    I know that someone crossed the atlantic a long time ago, not because it was written in my elementary book (which said pilgrims and indians were buddies) but because of our gene pool in north america and the merge of technological advancement in a given time frame that was not seen in this continent but was seen in others
    Hope this doesn't sound sarcastic but, did you do the genetic and archeological research yourself or did you read it somewhere?
  20. #660  
    Okay. So you have 500 people in a group. Some are dead, some are sleeping. I'm going to say the dead and sleeping folks can't see the rise event. That would mean we have a group of say 200 to 0 people left to see what it is that happened. Also these guys must be sleepy if so many others are already asleep, no? When your that sleepy you tend to see things. Also some people are dead. When people in your group start dying some of the group will find this hard to deal with and go into shock. People in shock don't make good witnesses.

    No, I don't think I missed anything.

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